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Nitrousoxide posted:Since when do we deny fellow workers a place in the party? since their work is oppression of the people
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Aug 7, 2017 00:44
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[guy who bought an anarcho-communist gang tag] duuuh why are cops bad
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Aug 7, 2017 00:46
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gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:since their work is oppression of the people You still need police in a socialist paradise?
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Aug 7, 2017 00:46
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as long as fetonte isn't an actual cointelpro style infiltrator I don't think this is a problem. police abolition would be nice but it's a long term goal, and in the meantime there will be cops; I would rather they are socialist cops than nonsocialist cops. there are going to cops for the entire lifespan of everyone currently living, in all likelihood, and I think that coopting them for socialism is a better strategy than relentlessly opposing them at every turn forever until they disappear.
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Aug 7, 2017 00:46
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MShadowy posted:His bio makes no mention of it, instead speaking about organizing for state workers with no specification as to what manner of state workers they were, and this noticeably contrasts with other portions of his statement when talking about other unions he helped organize. This seems very suspect and frankly malfeasant even if he is otherwise a devoted comrade, which this gives us reason to doubt. the right thing is to wait for the response from austin at this point but my extremely personal opinion is that im pissed this wasn't explicitly disclosed on his resume or whatever but also danny is not a cop. also this seems like a hit job the way the information is being revealed. danny doesn't know how to use facebook and it seems really weird to me that he would log in to linked in and make a page that says "im a police union organizer", not upload a photo or friend anyone, and log off the website forever.
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Aug 7, 2017 00:46
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because they don't disappear if you do that, is my point
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Aug 7, 2017 00:46
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Nitrousoxide posted:You still need police in a socialist paradise? mods?
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Aug 7, 2017 00:47
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Nitrousoxide posted:You still need police in a socialist paradise? whoah whoah whoah no you fuckin don't DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:as long as fetonte isn't an actual cointelpro style infiltrator I don't think this is a problem. police abolition would be nice but it's a long term goal, and in the meantime there will be cops; I would rather they are socialist cops than nonsocialist cops. there are going to cops for the entire lifespan of everyone currently living, in all likelihood, and I think that coopting them for socialism is a better strategy than relentlessly opposing them at every turn forever until they disappear. this is incredibly naive. there's one group of people cops have any solidarity with and that group is other cops.
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Aug 7, 2017 00:48
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my anecdotal view of this is there are a whole bunch of little communist orgs that don't like the DSA
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Aug 7, 2017 00:48
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Nitrousoxide posted:You still need police in a socialist paradise? taste my blade
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Aug 7, 2017 00:48
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TomViolence posted:whoah whoah whoah no you fuckin don't
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Aug 7, 2017 00:48
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:as long as fetonte isn't an actual cointelpro style infiltrator I don't think this is a problem. police abolition would be nice but it's a long term goal, and in the meantime there will be cops; I would rather they are socialist cops than nonsocialist cops. there are going to cops for the entire lifespan of everyone currently living, in all likelihood, and I think that coopting them for socialism is a better strategy than relentlessly opposing them at every turn forever until they disappear. my totally personal and hot take from what i think i know at this point: danny is a long time organizer with the texas state employee union and has done more for labor rights and racial justice in the workplace in texas than any moron on twitter. he also did a job with a police union at some point in his long rear end career. he has never been law enforcement.
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Aug 7, 2017 00:51
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gently caress. marry. t-rex posted:taste my blade My hot take is that people won't stop raping or trying to kill other people just because you collectivize the means of production.
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Aug 7, 2017 00:52
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TomViolence posted:this is incredibly naive. there's one group of people cops have any solidarity with and that group is other cops. that is not true at all and frankly it's the kind of dumb crap that when I hear it immediately makes me think the speaker is just going for Internet Cred. for instance, a bunch of police chiefs in Massachusetts have lobbied hard in favor of sanctuary cities and in favor of a bill allowing undocumented immigrants to drive legally. as a group cops are obviously very reactionary and the forces of reaction in this country have deliberately cultivated that and tried to make it worse, and I would say most cops would not make good comrades, BUT that is a problem to be solved, not an immutable force of nature. if you think there's some path to socialist liberation and police abolition that doesn't pass through "chipping away at the reactionary foundation of law enforcement and spreading socialist principles to law enforcement" then you're living in a dreamland.
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Aug 7, 2017 00:53
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even the best cop's literal job is protecting capital, if they had a social conscience they wouldn't be doing that job
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Aug 7, 2017 00:56
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Nitrousoxide posted:My hot take is that people won't stop raping or trying to kill other people just because you collectivize the means of production. The point is to recognize the liberal conceptualization of police as enforcers of private property rights first above anything else, which includes enforcing class antagonisms to the point of denying agency, material freedom, and even life to anyone beneath the production class. After that, reflect on how much crime is driven by 1) denial of the means to produce material existence, 2) driven by exploitation by classist institutions, 3) exigent maladaptive behaviors cultivated in the system of exploitation and class antagonism liberal capitalism creates and police enforce. Will there be "crime" in the "socialist paradise" ya, probably some, but liberal concepts of justice, laws, and militarized police that "protect and serve" will be made obsolete by addressing the bedrock malignancy of exploitation in society.
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Aug 7, 2017 00:59
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TomViolence posted:even the best cop's literal job is protecting capital, if they had a social conscience they wouldn't be doing that job do you believe this applies to the military as well
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Aug 7, 2017 01:01
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The military's job is to seize capital and expropriate it back to the homeland via imperial adventurism 
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Aug 7, 2017 01:02
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wait this guy isn't even a cop? lol
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Aug 7, 2017 01:02
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and any necessary functions can be performed by an organization that doesnt kill all the poor and toned people
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Aug 7, 2017 01:02
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acab forever btw, i'm just not yet ready to write off a long time labor organizer with real victories because of twitter posts
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Aug 7, 2017 01:02
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:wait this guy isn't even a cop? lol was at one point in time cop adjacent as far as i know
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Aug 7, 2017 01:02
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jarofpiss posted:was at one point in time cop adjacent as far as i know at one point in my life, i called the police, too.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:03
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:do you believe this applies to the military as well a volunteer military used in offensive operations around the globe? yeah, pretty much now i understand that both the police and the military probably have a lot of rank and file memebers that are there due to economic necessity, to get college or a pension, but that doesn't change the repressive nature of the work or the culture it propagates. and any socialist organisation that overlaps with the police force (which unlike the military operates domestically in repressing dissent) will be massively susceptible to, at best, divided loyalties. which will bring about leaks and will weaken the collective solidarity of the organisation when it inevitably comes into conflict with the police and the interests they protect
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Aug 7, 2017 01:04
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TomViolence posted:even the best cop's literal job is protecting capital, if they had a social conscience they wouldn't be doing that job A much higher percentage of veterans I know support single payer than the average person. Should they not be allowed to participate because They Did An Imperialism?
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Aug 7, 2017 01:04
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Loving Life Partner posted:exigent maladaptive behaviors cultivated in the system of exploitation and class antagonism liberal capitalism creates and police enforce.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:05
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Stop. This is madness. Instead of cops we should ban firefighters and EMS.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:05
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Also for the record, I don't think this guy is COINTELPRO or anything, and is probably a sincere organizer who has worked hard and advanced the cause, BUT, the big "whoops" was concealing his history, the fact that everyone was submarined by this proves two things, 1) it was largely unknown, concealed, or downplayed, 2) hey everyone get serious about vetting! If he had stood up and acknowledged his past and then talked about his organizing efforts after (which from my understanding include getting arrested in direct action), he probably would have done fine, even if tankie twitter would still have had a field day with it. Anyway, it's all there in Combat Liberalism y'all: Chairman Mao posted:To be aware of one's own mistakes and yet make no attempt to correct them, taking a liberal attitude towards oneself. This is an eleventh type.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:05
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putting aside the philosophical problems of allowing cops or friends of cops or w/e in an explicitly socialist organization, if you are making any actual effort to challenge the prevailing ideology of the state it's in your org's best interest to self-preserve you don't want to take any risks even if you aren't breaking the law, which dsa most definitely is not
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Aug 7, 2017 01:06
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TomViolence posted:even the best cop's literal job is protecting capital, if they had a social conscience they wouldn't be doing that job
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Aug 7, 2017 01:06
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maybe someone should have asked him if he was a cop they have to tell you if you ask
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Aug 7, 2017 01:07
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Relin posted:the best cop probably still has a high school education. an american high school education. they need to be educated in a non patronizing way, not excluded totally out of hand reminder that cops getting turned away because they scored too high on intelligence tests is a thing that happens
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Aug 7, 2017 01:07
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Talking about the necessity of law enforcement in a socialist state is the sort of loving retarded poo poo that got us marginalized in the first place. Keep the pie in the sky poo poo for later and try to focus on getting the pie on the shelf first
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Aug 7, 2017 01:07
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Venom Snake posted:A much higher percentage of veterans I know support single payer than the average person. Should they not be allowed to participate because They Did An Imperialism? you answered your own question by calling them veterans. even so an org needs to take every measure possible to ensure they aren't compromised. hint: it needs democratic centralism
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Aug 7, 2017 01:07
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fwiw I do think that having this guy on the NPC is problematic if only because he didn't disclose, but I think police abolition does not require the unpersoning of all current and former LEOs, and there is no path to socialism that does not involve at least some co-option of law enforcement if he had openly run disclosing his background and people had elected him anyways I'd say keep him there
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Aug 7, 2017 01:08
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I'm glad R. L. Stevens got a seat on the politburo. He's one of the rising stars of the New Old Left. I have no idea who anyone else is.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:08
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Venom Snake posted:A much higher percentage of veterans I know support single payer than the average person. Should they not be allowed to participate because They Did An Imperialism? troops are significantly less sketchy than cops, because unless poo poo really hits the fan you don't see soldiers at a picket line
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Aug 7, 2017 01:08
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The DSA should start a weed bar and put up a sign that says "NO COPS" on the door so cops can't come in.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:09
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R. Guyovich posted:you answered your own question by calling them veterans. even so an org needs to take every measure possible to ensure they aren't compromised. hint: it needs democratic centralism I don't know what you mean by the former. TomViolence posted:troops are significantly less sketchy than cops, because unless poo poo really hits the fan you don't see soldiers at a picket line Generally a lot of veterans are fed up with the status quo and at the very least recognize that the political class has failed to govern the country correctly. Now this means they either go A. Full Trump IE reactionary or B. Get pissed at capitalism and the exploitation of soldiers under it.
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Aug 7, 2017 01:10
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Maybe...we should take the cop's engagement and professed socialism at face value and not treat him like some otherwordly bad guy from the first Star trek series????
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Aug 7, 2017 01:11
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