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Slanderer posted:so worthless vigilantes roaming the subway, combined with that dumbass libertarian vision of privatized criminal justice? Privatized criminal justice requires there be property that you would "hire." Obviously it depends on what model of governance, but that's what I imagine a left-libertarian model would have to adapt. The abolition of property only abolishes the profit motive in crime, and if you also wish to abolish the state, which many left-libertarians socialists explicitly want to do, there's no model for a state-based law enforcement, so it has to be local volunteerist groups built in the community, or through the worker councils, or whatever. There's obviously a lot of problems that can and will arise from that which is explicitly why I say "all the issues that entails" and there's no handwave solution, and it's going to require a solution and thought, and the abolition of the carceral state is going to require people to articulate a replacement, or stages of replacement.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:35
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Slanderer posted:That happens after the initial revolution. During later years, a dekulakization-type process takes place where people are labeled "investment bankers" based on their phone's storage capacity. Eventually, anyone with an unlimited data plan is determined to be a banker and is subsequently purged. Please stop reminding me how far we currently are from true justice.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:36
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Slanderer posted:That happens after the initial revolution. During later years, a dekulakization-type process takes place where people are labeled "investment bankers" based on their phone's storage capacity. Eventually, anyone with an unlimited data plan is determined to be a banker and is subsequently purged. when we have built socialism all phone plans will be unlimited
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Aug 8, 2017 02:49
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Shear Modulus posted:when we have built socialism all phone plans will be unlimited When we have socialism our bonds of solidarity will be so strong that we will no longer have need of phones or verbal communication.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:53
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Tricky Dick Nixon posted:Privatized criminal justice requires there be property that you would "hire." Obviously it depends on what model of governance, but that's what I imagine a left-libertarian model would have to adapt. The abolition of property only abolishes the profit motive in crime, and if you also wish to abolish the state, which many left-libertarians socialists explicitly want to do, there's no model for a state-based law enforcement, so it has to be local volunteerist groups built in the community, or through the worker councils, or whatever. Also even within the capitalist sphere, we have some countries that seem to be pushing models of enforcement that are far more focused on mediation, de-escalation and generally not shooting people willy nilly than most countries in the world. That this can be attempted in systems that are still within capitalism with all the alienation it implies means that there is definitely a broad, completely untouched framework. Modern police forces aren't even 200 years old ffs, they're not a fact of nature, so like anyone in here who defends police as this unavoidable thing is doing themselves an ahistorical disservice by buying into the propaganda of capitalism control.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:15
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Grimoire posted:Practice, but with an X so you feel smart.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:15
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Shear Modulus posted:when we have built socialism all phone plans will be unlimited
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Aug 8, 2017 03:19
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Shear Modulus posted:when we have built socialism all phone plans will be unlimited We will have unlimited texting and data, phone minutes will be harshly rationed to prevent the bourgeois excess of calling someone when it's not a god damned emergency.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:23
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All talking will be voip, minutes will be meaningless.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:25
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i suck at texting. i just call people
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Aug 8, 2017 03:25
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Serf posted:i suck at texting. i just call people First against the wall.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:34
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fermun posted:First against the wall. Seriously. Okay grandpa.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:35
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TrilliontonNixon posted:When we have socialism our bonds of solidarity will be so strong that we will no longer have need of phones or verbal communication. the wifi was inside us all along
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Aug 8, 2017 03:40
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https://twitter.com/Theforgenews/status/894736164623667202 https://twitter.com/Theforgenews/status/894736339706535936
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Aug 8, 2017 03:42
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Internet Explorer posted:Seriously. Okay grandpa. the rules are very clear on this
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Aug 8, 2017 03:44
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the liberals and democrats refuse to grant every human being the unlimited texting and data that we deserve. they fetishize "efficiency" and the shuttering of data centers our overlords have deemed "redundant" humanity will not be hung on a cross of bandwidth maximums
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Aug 8, 2017 04:00
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I know your joking but the mismanagement of telecom infrastructure is actually kind of a big looming problem for the future right now. It's going to take a lot of resources to overhaul all the stuff AT&T and other companies built with Congressional grants and then straight up barely maintained for 20+ years
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Aug 8, 2017 04:04
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Serf posted:i suck at texting. i just call people
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Aug 8, 2017 04:07
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some stinky nerd bumped into me on the airplane and had a hammer and sickle patch on their ratty rear end overnight bag so I assume that was one of you all jesus christ did i dodge a bullet by not signing up for monthly contributions lmao
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Aug 8, 2017 04:12
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Larry Parrish posted:I know your joking but the mismanagement of telecom infrastructure is actually kind of a big looming problem for the future right now. It's going to take a lot of resources to overhaul all the stuff AT&T and other companies built with Congressional grants and then straight up barely maintained for 20+ years i'm only kind of kidding and yes of course the shittification of infrastructure and day-to-day life that was accomplished by handing over all profits from social goods and decision-making authority over those goods to the economic elites through privatization is neoliberalism step 1
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Aug 8, 2017 04:12
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Also bandwidth caps are hilarious postmodern caricatures of how capitalism needs to invent scarcity of a non-scarce resource so that rents may be extracted.
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Aug 8, 2017 05:00
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Shear Modulus posted:Also bandwidth caps are hilarious postmodern caricatures of how capitalism needs to invent scarcity of a non-scarce resource so that rents may be extracted. In the case of where I live, bandwidth caps and especially speed caps evolved because the only company to build or extend infrastructure out here was Hughes or whoever (I think Dish?) that bought their constellation and launched a few new ones. I live less than 50 miles from Sacramento
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Aug 8, 2017 06:00
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https://twitter.com/OfficerComrade/status/894788846147182593
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Aug 8, 2017 06:22
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instead of solidarity efforts we should spend more time thanking our troops
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Aug 8, 2017 06:24
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Tbf I'd wager the military is potentially more revolutionary than the average citizen. They get their pay stopped when the government shuts down and the huge military budget is going to acquisitions and R&D, not the personnel or base maintenance funds. iirc military pay raises have been behind inflation for a while now, and while it's a better wage than most civilian gigs it has a huge array of downsides, most of which are political in nature and not just a natural military thing
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Aug 8, 2017 07:16
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Shear Modulus posted:the liberals and democrats refuse to grant every human being the unlimited texting and data that we deserve. they fetishize "efficiency" and the shuttering of data centers our overlords have deemed "redundant" i have had my posts limited by the bourgeois for the last time
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Aug 8, 2017 07:38
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Larry Parrish posted:Tbf I'd wager the military is potentially more revolutionary than the average citizen. They get their pay stopped when the government shuts down and the huge military budget is going to acquisitions and R&D, not the personnel or base maintenance funds. iirc military pay raises have been behind inflation for a while now, and while it's a better wage than most civilian gigs it has a huge array of downsides, most of which are political in nature and not just a natural military thing the DSA veteran working group is a good deal left of the avg DSA member lol
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Aug 8, 2017 07:53
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Ace of Baes posted:the DSA veteran working group is a good deal left of the avg DSA member lol Frankly I'll admit I still believed in liberal interventionism when I joined the military even if I had a lot of doubts.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:58
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Theres some episode of What A Hell of a Way to Die where Francis talks about how the military is a socialist state in miniature operating in America, it doesn't surprise me that with that realization and the poo poo that foot soldiers actually have to go through that they come out of it not horny for centrism
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Aug 8, 2017 09:30
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Tricky Dick Nixon posted:It'd probably be a volunteer civilian group for crime prevention like the Guardian Angels, with all the issues that entails. Socialism removes the need for the police to act as protectors of property, so it allows for a more downgraded form of law and order, but it will likely still exist. You'll also not unlikely see detective services and investigators used to handle arbitration and mediation. Lawyers will also absolutely still exist, I have no doubt, and probably have to have their own investigators and the like. It also all depends on the form of government too and lots of socialists will disagree on that, but this is the more left-libertarian model I'd imagine. so basically the Stefan Moleneux 'verse ok
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Aug 8, 2017 11:26
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Tricky Dick Nixon posted:It'd probably be a volunteer civilian group for crime prevention like the Guardian Angels, with all the issues that entails. Socialism removes the need for the police to act as protectors of property, so it allows for a more downgraded form of law and order, but it will likely still exist. You'll also not unlikely see detective services and investigators used to handle arbitration and mediation. Lawyers will also absolutely still exist, I have no doubt, and probably have to have their own investigators and the like. It also all depends on the form of government too and lots of socialists will disagree on that, but this is the more left-libertarian model I'd imagine. Wow, sounds sick. Vigilantes are now the sole police force sounds super awesome and that would surely not go super wrong.
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Aug 8, 2017 12:28
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once you decriminalize drugs and sex work there'd be a lot less for the cops to do tho
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Aug 8, 2017 12:51
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Just have cops be a slightly more armed version of social workers.
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Aug 8, 2017 12:53
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Serf posted:once you decriminalize drugs and sex work there'd be a lot less for the cops to do tho It's funny how the immediate response of the moderates when abolition is brought up is "but what about the ultra violent crimes that are a minority of crimes and that police is absolutely useless at deterring, bad at investigating, and often one of the professions that commits them the most"
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Aug 8, 2017 13:03
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Agnosticnixie posted:It's funny how the immediate response of the moderates when abolition is brought up is "but what about the ultra violent crimes that are a minority of crimes and that police is absolutely useless at deterring, bad at investigating, and often one of the professions that commits them the most" i think in the socialist utopia we'd still need cops, but they wouldn't be a lot like the cops we have today. i dunno how exactly they'd be different bc i'm dumb but smart folks can figure that part out
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Aug 8, 2017 13:06
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Agnosticnixie posted:It's funny how the immediate response of the moderates when abolition is brought up is "but what about the ultra violent crimes that are a minority of crimes and that police is absolutely useless at deterring, bad at investigating, and often one of the professions that commits them the most" Because it's an obvious counter-example for why police are needed perhaps? It doesn't even need to be ultra violent poo poo. People will still get in brawls in bars, there will still be family violence, people will still get jealous and try to steal people stuff or stalk other people. Just because you share the means of production doesn't mean all the bad impulses of people go away. And any system that just assumes people will be nearly perfect little angels is doomed to fail.
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Aug 8, 2017 13:21
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Nitrousoxide posted:Because it's an obvious counter-example for why police are needed perhaps? Actually I'll have you find that crime doesn't exist outside of the liberal context because criminal enterprise is not mutually profitable for the consumer
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Aug 8, 2017 13:36
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Serf posted:i think in the socialist utopia we'd still need cops, but they wouldn't be a lot like the cops we have today. i dunno how exactly they'd be different bc i'm dumb but smart folks can figure that part out "public safety valets" is my suggestion
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Aug 8, 2017 13:57
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Nitrousoxide posted:Because it's an obvious counter-example for why police are needed perhaps? Most of this poo poo is exacerbated by a lovely, alienating society. Cops aren't even particularly good for a lot of this stuff anyway so like... The only help I got when I had a stalker was from my GP and a young women's shelter. We can basically make 99% of cops obsolete and replace the tiny rear end amount that remains by mediators and social workers.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:19
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Cops under socialism would be the Andy Griffith Show but real life and not racist.
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Aug 8, 2017 14:23
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