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The "but how would line infantry deal with TAGs without crits?" argument always struck me as bullshit. You're already including ways to deal with camo and smoke, bringing an AP or DA weapon isn't going to break the bank. And without crits you are a lot less likely to randomly lose your answer to heavy armor to a lucky crit, its a win/win. Edit: Burst 1 AP/DA and AP/EXP weapons make a lot more sense without crits. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 01:30
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KPC_Mammon posted:The "but how would line infantry deal with TAGs without crits?" argument always struck me as bullshit. You're already including ways to deal with camo and smoke, bringing an AP or DA weapon isn't going to break the bank. And don't get me wrong, I love crits, without them Infinity would get much more mathy and I prefer controlled chaos to that. But I'd like them to be properly costed. Or maybe we could have crits as auto-wins but without auto-wounding, you'd still have to make the ARM roll.
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Aug 8, 2017 01:47
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I like to Shinobu TAGs because I like to imagine her not looking backwards as it slowly slides in half, then explodes. e: i hear there's idiot drama for idiots about 'slicing the pie' like it isn't one of the best and player-friendly mechanics in infinity.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:00
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Oh, the "intent" debate again? I think it largely depends on whether your want to play cool or be an rear end in a top hat. You can play Infinity such that it's a serious loving "gotcha" game, but you don't have to. Apart from Cautious Movement and declaring AROs right on the edge of your ZOC, there's very little where fine positioning is even an issue.
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Aug 8, 2017 02:26
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Ilor posted:Oh, the "intent" debate again? I think it largely depends on whether your want to play cool or be an rear end in a top hat. You can play Infinity such that it's a serious loving "gotcha" game, but you don't have to. Apart from Cautious Movement and declaring AROs right on the edge of your ZOC, there's very little where fine positioning is even an issue. And statements like "I'm moving my X with the intent of drawing line of sight on only your Y" speed the game and make me feel like a cool guy when i say them that knows what im doing instead of some idiot who throws ninja into close combat and wins games somehow
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Aug 8, 2017 02:29
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Ughhjj pie slicing. It just jars that premeasuring range/move/ZoC, a critical but open piece of information, is banned, but premeasuring line of sight, a critical but open piece of information, is a ok. I have no problem with intent, it's the bullshit back and forward Los "let me know when I have the best advantage over you please" dance that irks me. I really wish they'd just have a 'move the dude, guess your Los, but don't actually measure till the order concludes' rule in there just like with all these other guess work points. Or just go full premeasuring, in which case slice away.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:16
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On another note, there's a poo poo load of talk about 'crits not being costed' but only subjective stuff out there. Let's change that. How would you determine if 'crits are costed'? Look at the increased chance to kill of a unit with higher/lower burst and see if that scales with points? What do you guys think? I want to get some specific things to measure and do just that.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:19
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The problem with that approach is that burst is already rolled into the cost of a weapon. What you really want to look at is not damage output, but rather survivability. To see if crits are "costed" appropriately, you'd check on the receiving end.
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Aug 8, 2017 04:21
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You could just allow models with more than one wound or structure on their profile to keep their armor save against crits but ignore the cover bonus.
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Aug 8, 2017 04:32
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Ilor posted:The problem with that approach is that burst is already rolled into the cost of a weapon. What you really want to look at is not damage output, but rather survivability. To see if crits are "costed" appropriately, you'd check on the receiving end. Yeah, so what target? I'm also thinking higher burst = more crits, so effectively the burst of your weapon is your crit variable. Effectively heavy shotty/mk12/hmg is one axis, and arm is other maybe? Hrmm
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Aug 8, 2017 06:35
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S.J. posted:You could just allow models with more than one wound or structure on their profile to keep their armor save against crits but ignore the cover bonus. Crits devalue ARM, not wounds. In fact, they actually enhance the value of multiple wounds. That's part of why knights see play: 2W, great BS, and not too much cost loaded into ARM. Having an extra wound means that a single lucky crit doesn't cost you a shitload of orders invested in offensive positioning. ARM just can't do the same. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 06:40
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My favorite crit was a crit flash from an alguicile forward observer on one of those fireteam tags onyx has.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:12
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Corbeau posted:Crits devalue ARM, not wounds. In fact, they actually enhance the value of multiple wounds. That's part of why knights see play: 2W, great BS, and not too much cost loaded into ARM. Having an extra wound means that a single lucky crit doesn't cost you a shitload of orders invested in offensive positioning. ARM just can't do the same. How frequent are high ARM, single wound models? Or is it more about ignoring cover bonuses? And if it devalues ARM, wouldn't it similarly devalue any other defensive tech like ODD or mimetism? S.J. fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 07:26
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S.J. posted:if [crits] devalue ARM, wouldn't [they] similarly devalue any other defensive tech like ODD or mimetism? Yes, it's just that ODD/mimetism are much more powerful than ARM because they help you win f2f rolls when crits don't happen. That makes them worthwhile even with crits flying around. ARM just isn't as good because it lacks the offensive element of winning f2f rolls, yet ARM is costed as high or even higher then mimetism. IIRC mimetism is only ~3 points in CB's formula while ARM starts oddly expensive and gets even more expensive the more you have (because it gets better the more you have of it - see Jotum in cover). ARM being so expensive would make complete sense in a world without crits, but it's pretty sketchy with crits flying around.
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Aug 8, 2017 09:24
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S.J. posted:How frequent are high ARM, single wound models? Or is it more about ignoring cover bonuses? And if it devalues ARM, wouldn't it similarly devalue any other defensive tech like ODD or mimetism? ARM 3 MI are reasonably common in Aleph and the CA. There's also Ariadna's Grunts and a few others.
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Aug 8, 2017 11:04
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S.J. posted:How frequent are high ARM, single wound models? Or is it more about ignoring cover bonuses? And if it devalues ARM, wouldn't it similarly devalue any other defensive tech like ODD or mimetism? No wonder my poor Mormaers don't see play beyond lists I build. Their crazy expense makes way more sense in a no crit World.
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Aug 8, 2017 11:11
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Khisanth Magus posted:My favorite crit was a crit flash from an alguicile forward observer on one of those fireteam tags onyx has.  S.J. posted:How frequent are high ARM, single wound models?
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Aug 8, 2017 13:28
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I keep forgetting that ARM 3 is pretty good
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Aug 8, 2017 16:53
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Being 6 in cover is a nice add on to your dice. Need a 8+ to beat Dmg13 isnt so bad.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:02
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It's nice when the unit in question is a 10-point grunt and an extra order (or two) spent murdering it is a wasteful investment. It's less nice when it's a 25-30-point MI who's worth the time spent murderin'.
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Aug 8, 2017 19:17
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What was the general verdict on USARF? I've not played vs them in an actual competitive ITS environment. Nobody around here seems to bother with them. Probs because it's the UK so the USA USA USA crowd doesn't exist.
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Aug 9, 2017 01:58
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They're alright. I've enjoyed playing and playing against them. It's been my experience that USARF rapidly turns into a delivery mechanism for Van Zant and Foxtrots, however.
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Aug 9, 2017 02:24
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That is because the only way for them to win is Foxtrot objective grabbers and the threat of Van Zant. They arent mobile enough to flank you, even with 5 man link order efficiency. They are a good army of durable medium infantry, great camo makers, and some fun toys. Play them if you love 'Merica, awesome miniatures, shock Werewolves, Rambo, and Matthew McConaughey.
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Aug 9, 2017 03:17
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What's the best way to deal with tr bots as aleph? I feel like if any one things been wrecking me, that's been it
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Aug 9, 2017 03:27
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USAriadna can't get a real camo game going like Vanilla and they don't have the firepower or the mobility of the Scotts. But their greatest weakness is that they're just so drat predictable.
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Aug 9, 2017 03:28
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w00tmonger posted:What's the best way to deal with tr bots as aleph? I feel like if any one things been wrecking me, that's been it Any of the 5 million smoke grenade users and/or odd troops. TR bots usually have rather middling bs and no msv.
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Aug 9, 2017 03:43
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Khisanth Magus posted:Any of the 5 million smoke grenade users and/or odd troops. TR bots usually have rather middling bs and no msv. Yeah I mean, a couple myrmidons are on my shortlist at the moment for this reason. Achilles is being painted too
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Aug 9, 2017 03:45
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w00tmonger posted:What's the best way to deal with tr bots as aleph? I feel like if any one things been wrecking me, that's been it If it's vanilla ALEPH, run a Posthuman MK2 Sniper. Those things are horrible monsters, and I love them.
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Aug 9, 2017 03:55
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dexefiend posted:That is because the only way for them to win is Foxtrot objective grabbers and the threat of Van Zant. They arent mobile enough to flank you, even with 5 man link order efficiency. Into the trash it goes. Much like aleph players and sj
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Aug 9, 2017 16:04
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Flipswitch posted:Into the trash it goes. Much like aleph players and sj 
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Aug 9, 2017 16:28
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w00tmonger posted:Yeah I mean, a couple myrmidons are on my shortlist at the moment for this reason. Achilles is being painted too yeah; 4 chain rifle myrmadons @ 16 points each is a loving steal given how good they are. 21 CC, Martial Arts Lvl 3, with AP weapons and the smoke mean you can use a combined order to slice and dice very easily and yeah, Achilles is probably the best TAG in the game
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Aug 9, 2017 16:49
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Flipswitch posted:Into the trash it goes. Much like aleph players and sj im both of those things 
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Aug 9, 2017 17:07
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our aleph player is an underhanded dirtbag so can confirm
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Aug 9, 2017 17:10
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also aleph is for nerds
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Aug 9, 2017 17:11
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S.J. posted:im both of those things I bought warm hordes because of your thread so you are like my forum nemesis buddy. Got a game later vs new Tarik. If I lose ill make a whine thread but if I win it's clearly skill against the op stuff
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Aug 9, 2017 17:28
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Cat Face Joe posted:also aleph is for nerds I mean yeah, but at least it's not anime cat girls or art of the blade dudes
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Aug 9, 2017 17:50
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Cat Face Joe posted:our aleph player is an underhanded dirtbag so can confirm
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Aug 9, 2017 18:30
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Ilor posted:Well, I enjoy being an underhanded dirtbag with Haqqislam, so maybe I should look into this whole ALEPH thing... No, as in a literal cheater.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:50
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Flipswitch posted:I bought warm hordes because of your thread so you are like my forum nemesis buddy. But both of these games are good I just want people to have fun okay geeze ugh Also I'm just gonna take this time to complain that Yu Jing didn't get anything new or changed from BRV (csu doesn't count shut up) and that's unfair, etc, etc Also I'm upset that CB doesn't let you buy bits because I wanna put a ponytail on that new Daofei S.J. fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 9, 2017 18:59
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Cat Face Joe posted:No, as in a literal cheater. 
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Aug 9, 2017 19:49
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