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HEY GAIL posted:that's protestants; the catholics goth it up with lace and candles and black silk and statues of Mary but she's crying, maybe with blood-red roses in her hands. have you seen the music video for lady gaga's "fernando"? Just because you flounce with crinkled velvet does not mean the sheer level of guilt is good. Numerical Anxiety posted:You're only getting half of it. The flip side of the coin, which like any mise-en-abyme, never stops turning, is quite humorous. And that's the part that makes it not only livable, but even liberating. Please explain, because I am failing to see this.
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Aug 7, 2017 23:34
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The whole thing about being a sinner saved by grace is that both things are true. Don't get all up yourself because of how amazing you are, because you aren't. But don't get all down on yourself about how you are so damned that no one could possibly love you, because also you aren't.
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Aug 8, 2017 00:04
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See I prefer it when its just "go to BBQ at big marble building, occasionally go on opium nightmare". Early faiths sound both weirder and yet seem to make so much more sense than pick and choose which flavour of yourself you want to dislike.
Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 00:09
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wheel of fate like the moon ever turning, waxing and waning etc etc
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Aug 8, 2017 00:12
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Josef bugman posted:Wow, I never thought a godless universe could be made to sound so appealing by just 2 sentences. There's a big drinking culture in Ireland, too.
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Aug 8, 2017 00:35
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Caufman posted:There's a big drinking culture in Ireland, too. Italy doesn't have one, and I know my girlfriend is continually complaining about Catholic guilt from that particular part of the world. Also I was watching contrapoints and found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKrbvLkbHu8 which appears to be an argument with a G.K. Chesterton fan (why do so many people love him, I just don't get it) who is argued that the sexual revolution was a bad idea. Wondered what the rest of you thought. I rather liked it, aesthetically mostly, but I understand the basic points being raised reasonably well.
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Aug 8, 2017 00:40
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Everyone's got to deal with guilt differently. Some people drink, some people talk funny with their hands. Some people even post on SA, Devil take my soul
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Aug 8, 2017 00:43
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Caufman posted:Some people even post on SA, Devil take my soul You alright mate? Don't usually see you talking like this.
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Aug 8, 2017 00:50
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Oh I'm just being tongue in cheek, but thank you kindly for asking. I love you all from now until the hour of our deaths.
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Aug 8, 2017 00:58
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I never really got why “Catholic guilt“ keeps getting mentioned that often (and I suspect that it has turned in a meme of sorts tbh), I never really saw myself or other Catholics as especially guilt-ridden, particularly when compared to e.g. some of the stricter forms of Protestantism. But maybe that's just my Bavarian Catholicism talking, idk.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:01
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System Metternich posted:I never really got why “Catholic guilt“ keeps getting mentioned that often (and I suspect that it has turned in a meme of sorts tbh), I never really saw myself or other Catholics as especially guilt-ridden, particularly when compared to e.g. some of the stricter forms of Protestantism. But maybe that's just my Bavarian Catholicism talking, idk. Catholic guilt has been a thing for generations. George Carlin was making jokes about it 50 years ago.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:10
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Like System Metternich, my encounter with Catholic guilt has mostly been that it's talked and joked about more than it has sprung from or influenced my life. When someone does something regrettable, it's natural they'll feel sad and sorry. Is there a special way that Christians experience this? Could be, but in my life it looks much more like what docbeard said: "Don't get all up yourself because of how amazing you are, because you aren't. But don't get all down on yourself about how you are so damned that no one could possibly love you, because also you aren't." I cannot do so much wrong that it throws off how the universe must be, nor can anyone else sin against me so that I'm doomed.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:24
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Caufman posted:
I'd agree with the latter, but disagree with the former.
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Aug 8, 2017 04:07
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Metternich is right, in Germany Catholics aren't known for feeling guilty. We're the ones who gladly get drunk and sin around in the expectation of our next good confession, while the sober protestants work out their salvation in fear and trembling. I like that Catholicism can be so different in different places, makes me wonder what it would be like if we hadn't established that papal primacy centralization stuff.
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Aug 8, 2017 04:21
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CountFosco posted:I'd agree with the latter, but disagree with the former. If I have power to throw off God's plans inside and outside of human salvation, I sure as heck have not been using it right.
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Aug 8, 2017 04:27
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Josef bugman posted:Please explain, because I am failing to see this. The issue is that there's an infinite logical regress there, akin to the classical Liar's Paradox. Let's see if I can sketch it out quickly. 1. Because of our fallen nature, all human judgments made in the absence of grace are corrupt, and are therefore to some extent culpable. 2. When I condemn myself for a past judgment, whether I acted upon it or not, I have made a human judgment. The same also applies when I praise one of my actions. 3. These second order judgments are still liable to corruption, and therefore are suspect. 4. The attempt to instate a further order of judgments cannot arrest the process, these remain human judgments - the dynamic of suspicion extends infinitely. 5. Only a judgment made under the influence of divine grace could arrest this process, but grace works silently. One does not know whether one has acted or judged in accordance with grace or not, and one can convince one's self that grace was active where it was not. 6. The determination as to whether one acted in accordance with grace or not is still a human judgment, and is perhaps corrupt. The upshot is that any condemnation, in the very act of its being pronounced, might well condemn itself and not its ostensible object. The question as to whether this is the case or not cannot be answered with confidence, because of the silence of grace. The only thing that can be pronounced with confidence is we don't have the final word on our own culpability, since judgment in the absence of grace can only ever return on itself.
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Aug 8, 2017 04:27
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pidan posted:Metternich is right, in Germany Catholics aren't known for feeling guilty. We're the ones who gladly get drunk and sin around in the expectation of our next good confession, while the sober protestants work out their salvation in fear and trembling.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:08
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The French might not be the best example here, seeing as they did just that 
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Aug 8, 2017 08:29
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System Metternich posted:The French might not be the best example here, seeing as they did just that
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Aug 8, 2017 09:00
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Josef bugman posted:Early faiths sound both weirder and yet seem to make so much more sense Thank you!  Honestly I prefer looking at the current earth as paradise. The horriblest things happen, sure, but that is because people are out of balance. We're not born sinners per se, but we carry energetic 'debts' from prior lives, nudging us towards certian experiences and challenges in this one, so we can keep growing forever.
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Aug 8, 2017 10:56
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Caufman posted:If I have power to throw off God's plans inside and outside of human salvation, I sure as heck have not been using it right. Neither have I! That's the whole point of repentance. If you didn't have the power to "throw off God's plans" then there'd be no point of repentance, as you as a moral agent would not exist. There'd be nothing to apologize for.
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Aug 8, 2017 15:02
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Tias posted:Thank you! But what if we don't have previous lives?
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Aug 8, 2017 15:10
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I have traveled beyond the world of the living and seen one of mine, that's more or less the proof I need that I did. Of course, it's a point of contention between our faiths 
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Aug 8, 2017 15:32
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https://twitter.com/FrCharles/status/894915211622313985
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Aug 8, 2017 16:20
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Tias posted:I have traveled beyond the world of the living and seen one of mine, that's more or less the proof I need that I did. Of course, it's a point of contention between our faiths So what, you're a zombie? My contention with reincarnation is that it erases away my own individuality. On the surface, it seems to heighten one's own place in the world, as you're not "just" this human instance, but a magnificent soul that has had experience after experience. But when I really think about it, what it says to me is that I'm not really John Lastname, I'm really some ancient human who just happened to come into this incarnation. And I can't buy it.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:26
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somewhere in the afterlife, tilly just flipped the gently caress out and isn't sure why
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Aug 8, 2017 16:31
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CountFosco posted:So what, you're a zombie? That's not how it works though. You're you, but at some point in your life you were a tiny babbling baby and now every cell of that baby's body has moved on and everything about your mind has also changed. But when you look at a photo of that baby you still say "that's me". Reincarnation posits that that basic process of self-ness goes on in a new body after you die. What comes along (soul, destiny, awareness...) and how exactly the mechanics work is explained differently in various traditions. I once asked a Christian theologian which of the various persons gets to go to the Christian afterlife. She was all  Because while 15 year old pidan's experiences have certainly shaped who I am now, she's also as dead as you can be. She didn't know the word pidan for one thing.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:44
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HEY GAIL posted:somewhere in the afterlife, tilly just flipped the gently caress out and isn't sure why This says something about us as a species, but I'm not entirely sure what.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:51
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CountFosco posted:Neither have I! That's the whole point of repentance. If you didn't have the power to "throw off God's plans" then there'd be no point of repentance, as you as a moral agent would not exist. There'd be nothing to apologize for. I see where you're coming from. But I understand my repentance as accepting God's invitation for me to be closer to God while I'm mortal. The rebellion of sin will fail and love will conquer all whether I or anyone else accept that invitation or not. If no one's sin can doom me, how can my sins doom everything?
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Aug 8, 2017 17:04
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I'm not suggesting that anyone's sins doom anything. I'm just suggesting that sin signifies a divergence from that which is good (and thus diverges from the will of the good) and warrants repentance.
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Aug 8, 2017 20:19
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CountFosco posted:So what, you're a zombie? Not at all, I've undergone a symbolic death* wherein I entered a trance state( in my usual fashion, using a drum beat to alter my consciousness), visited myself in a prior life by way of a large chamber filled with water fountains, each leading to one of them. Conceivably, you can visit a future life as well, but I haven't attempted that. It really does not, though. You are both your eternal light body( which, if anything, does not have many individualist traits), and the life you live now. There's a broader narrative as well, we usually incarnate close to other souls who share an affinity for us or have to learn the same things we do. *though I have tried dying or nearly dying in the legit, technical sense - though I had no spiritual experience doing so. Just, blackness and calm.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:16
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Caufman posted:I see where you're coming from. But I understand my repentance as accepting God's invitation for me to be closer to God while I'm mortal. The rebellion of sin will fail and love will conquer all whether I or anyone else accept that invitation or not. Only 1 man's sins doomed him 
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Aug 8, 2017 21:23
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I don't believe in reincarnation, but as a historian I gotta say that it would be amazingly useful for gathering additional first-hand sources As a nerdy aside, I thought that Pillars of Eternity did a very good job in conveying what a society where reincarnation and the existence of souls is a well-known and empirically proven fact might look like, e.g. people being discriminated against because their souls used to be in the wrong bodies a couple of lifetimes ago, the souls of sentenced criminals being used as fuel for machines or people breaking down because they discovered that they used to be pampered nobles in a previous life and can't match this memory with their present life as a poor maidservant.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:35
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System Metternich posted:I don't believe in reincarnation, but as a historian I gotta say that it would be amazingly useful for gathering additional first-hand sources I can't relate much else, but I will tell you that getting killed with a spear in what I assume is iron age Scandinavia loving sucks.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:43
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Tias posted:Not at all, I've undergone a symbolic death* wherein I entered a trance state( in my usual fashion, using a drum beat to alter my consciousness), visited myself in a prior life by way of a large chamber filled with water fountains, each leading to one of them. Conceivably, you can visit a future life as well, but I haven't attempted that. 
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Aug 8, 2017 21:47
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Tias posted:I can't relate much else, but I will tell you that getting killed with a spear in what I assume is iron age Scandinavia loving sucks. Yeah, but otoh you don't exactly need a past-life memory or an MA in history to know that
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Aug 8, 2017 21:47
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Poke fun all you like, these are not only my beliefs, I have been able to verify them by personal gnosis. I suspect many people are not as fortunate :p System Metternich posted:Yeah, but otoh you don't exactly need a past-life memory or an MA in history to know that I'm helping! 
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Aug 8, 2017 22:14
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CountFosco posted:I'm not suggesting that anyone's sins doom anything. I'm just suggesting that sin signifies a divergence from that which is good (and thus diverges from the will of the good) and warrants repentance. I have no problem with anything you said here.
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Aug 8, 2017 22:23
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Hey now, you leave Saint Antony out of this.
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Aug 8, 2017 22:25
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System Metternich posted:[..] people breaking down because they discovered that they used to be pampered nobles in a previous life and can't match this memory with their present life as a poor maidservant. Here's one of a kids being super bummed about being reborn in a poor family: quote:Jagdish Chandra Might just have been a kind finding a culturally viable way to demand cool stuff (and verifying that stuff is a nightmare), but who knows.
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Aug 8, 2017 22:51
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