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Astroman posted:Hmm, maybe you could whitesplain to these professional actors how they are being sucked in by institutional racism into acting against their best interests as you see them. Here's their twitters, I'm sure they'd love it if you #WOKE them: ... That was the exact opposite of my point, and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. I don't blame the actors for taking work, the vast, vast majority of actors aren't in a position to turn down speaking roles on primetime TV. It's not their responsibility to vet every role for 100% Correctness, and leaving a gig because you don't agree with what you're portraying is seen as completely unprofessional as it, y'know, is in fact unprofessional. We're not saying that Doctor Who falling victim to modern prejudices is The Worst Thing Ever. Institutional racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia etc etc is just that - institutional. It's ingrained in society, and it's no more someone's fault for feeling prejudice than it is someone's fault for being prejudiced against. It's something that everyone has do deal with, and letting your prejudices slip through your internal filter is by no means unforgivable. What is bad is refusing to admit that these feelings are wrong, sticking your fingers in your ears, and pretending that everything is fine.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:12
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This is going in circles. Do we have anything else we can discuss? I was pondering 13's probable costumes or styles the other day, but that's maybe not even a great topic. I think they'll dress her kinda like Susan.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:31
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how do you cosplay a character who hasn't even had a costume shown yet?
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Aug 8, 2017 16:59
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CommonShore posted:This is going in circles. Do we have anything else we can discuss? I just started working my way through Pertwee's run thanks to Britbox, and despite seeing some of these episodes before, I'm surprised by how wonderful Delgado is in "Terror of the Autons". It's so good, I think I might just watch through the entirety of Pertwee's run and move right into Tom since I've never watched an entire run of a classic Doctor in order before.
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Aug 8, 2017 17:03
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The Action Man posted:I just started working my way through Pertwee's run thanks to Britbox, and despite seeing some of these episodes before, I'm surprised by how wonderful Delgado is in "Terror of the Autons". It's so good, I think I might just watch through the entirety of Pertwee's run and move right into Tom since I've never watched an entire run of a classic Doctor in order before. In my extremely slow, 4 serials from finished, ongoing watch of everything, I don't think I enjoyed a single Doctor's run more than I did Pertwee's. He is not my favorite Doctor, but he probably has my favorite run of episodes and is certainly in my top 3 Doctors.
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Aug 8, 2017 17:05
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I hope for this regeneration the Doctor parks the TARDIS before regenerating. Doing the bit where the new Doctor has to deal with a crashing / out of control TARDIS three regenerations is a row is probably enough.remusclaw posted:In my extremely slow, 4 serials from finished, ongoing watch of everything, I don't think I enjoyed a single Doctor's run more than I did Pertwee's. He is not my favorite Doctor, but he probably has my favorite run of episodes and is certainly in my top 3 Doctors. Pertwee is great. I prefer the good McCoy episodes, but there aren't many of them compared to how many good Pertwee stories there are, which is most of them. marktheando fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 17:13
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Lampsacus posted:Hey! I'm getting back into heavy reading. Beats heavy internet use right? Has anybody any Doctor Who novels they would recommend? My favourites include: New Adventures (NAs): The Also People - Ben Aaronovitch All-Consuming Fire - Andy Lane Human Nature - Paul Cornell Damaged Goods - RTD Lungbarrow - Marc Platt Missing Adventures (MAs): Cold Fusion - Lance Parkin The Well-Mannered War - Gareth Roberts Eighth Doctor Adventures (EDAs) The City of the Dead - Lloyd Rose Alien Bodies - Lawrence Miles Seeing I - Kate Orman & Jon Blum Unnatural History - " " & " " Interference - Lawrence Miles The Turing Test - Paul Leonard Father Time - Lance Parkin Eater of Wasps - Trevor Baxendale Year of Intelligent Tigers - Kate Orman History 101 - Mags L Halliday Adventuress of Henrietta Street - Lawrence Miles Past Doctor Adventures (PDAs) Illegal Alien - Mike Tucker The Infinity Doctors - Lance Parkin Storm Harvest - Mike Tucker Verdigris - Paul Magrs Festival of Death - Jonathan Morris
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Aug 8, 2017 17:20
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CommonShore posted:This is going in circles. Do we have anything else we can discuss? We can discuss the weird fandom obsession with Ace and wanting to gently caress her with their self inserts do not steal in OFFICIAL DOCTOR WHO MEDIA Because that's a part of the fandom I had no idea existed and do not understand. Just completely missed the boat on that. I am morbidly curious how mortified the actress is about it though considering it was part of Officially Licensed Novels.
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Aug 8, 2017 17:29
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The Action Man posted:I just started working my way through Pertwee's run thanks to Britbox, and despite seeing some of these episodes before, I'm surprised by how wonderful Delgado is in "Terror of the Autons". It's so good, I think I might just watch through the entirety of Pertwee's run and move right into Tom since I've never watched an entire run of a classic Doctor in order before. Pertwee's run is pretty consistent in most metrics. I've rewatched one of the episodes from his last serial 3 or 4 times on its own because it's fun to show it to my friends.
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Aug 8, 2017 17:30
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Burkion posted:We can discuss the weird fandom obsession with Ace and wanting to gently caress her with their self inserts do not steal in OFFICIAL DOCTOR WHO MEDIA  I don't know what you are talking about, this totally seems like something her character on the tv show would wear.
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Aug 8, 2017 17:55
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I can only picture Sophie Aldred as more or less literally Ace, so I just picture her walking into book stores with a baseball bat knocking the ones she dislikes off the shelves, while cheerfully signing the ones she likes.
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Aug 8, 2017 17:58
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Lampsacus posted:Hey! I'm getting back into heavy reading. Beats heavy internet use right? Has anybody any Doctor Who novels they would recommend? The_Doctor lists a lot of the best ones above. I'm seconding the recommendation for Alien Bodies, which is one of my favourite Doctor Who stories in any medium. Other good ones off the top of my head include The Witch Hunters (no-aliens historical story set around the Salem witch trials) and The Time Travellers (alternate timeline fuckery in modern London), which both happen to be First Doctor PDAs. Strong non-recommendation for the first NA, Timewyrm: Genesys by John Peel. I was stuck in a damp tent for a week once and that loving thing was the only book I had with me and it turned out to be a pretty lovely week. Burkion posted:We can discuss the weird fandom obsession with Ace and wanting to gently caress her with their self inserts do not steal in OFFICIAL DOCTOR WHO MEDIA Sophie Aldred wrote the foreword to Timewyrm: Genesys and talks up John Peel for making Mesopotamian history fun and exciting, as exemplified in the novel itself by having Ace be groped by Gilgamesh
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Aug 8, 2017 18:04
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TL posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-40851896/jodie-whittaker-reacts-to-fans-dressing-up-as-her-in-the-new-doctor-who These people are going to be upset when Whittaker's costume is revealed and they realize she was orignally just wearing Capaldi's costume and they spent 50 dollars on a sweatshirt and a sportcoat for nothing.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:11
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marktheando posted:I hope for this regeneration the Doctor parks the TARDIS before regenerating. Doing the bit where the new Doctor has to deal with a crashing / out of control TARDIS three regenerations is a row is probably enough. How are the Pertwee Dalek episodes? Is it worth it to just get the DVDs with the reshot/improved scenes?
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Aug 8, 2017 18:13
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Cojawfee posted:These people are going to be upset when Whittaker's costume is revealed and they realize she was orignally just wearing Capaldi's costume and they spent 50 dollars on a sweatshirt and a sportcoat for nothing. I mean, they bought a sweatshirt and got to do a goofy thing at a convention with their friends, I think they'll be okay.
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Aug 8, 2017 18:17
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The Action Man posted:How are the Pertwee Dalek episodes? Is it worth it to just get the DVDs with the reshot/improved scenes? Planet ain't so great, Day has a classic bit of time travel guff and excellent sound design, Death has the sound that got KHS into Doctor Who (the exillon's beacon) and Frontier doesn't have the daleks in, ssh
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Aug 8, 2017 18:20
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marktheando posted:I hope for this regeneration the Doctor parks the TARDIS before regenerating. Doing the bit where the new Doctor has to deal with a crashing / out of control TARDIS three regenerations is a row is probably enough. Supposedly the TARDIS is supposed to ease the regeneration process when they're away from Gallifrey, hence things like the Zero Room. Since Ten and Eleven specifically tossed it into flight right before hand, it probably has to be in motion to work. Or maybe, y'know, dramatic conceit. Either one!
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Aug 8, 2017 21:00
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, they bought a sweatshirt and got to do a goofy thing at a convention with their friends, I think they'll be okay. Plus it lead to Whittaker looking at the photos and going  so I'm a-ok with it
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Aug 8, 2017 21:01
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Cojawfee posted:These people are going to be upset when Whittaker's costume is revealed and they realize she was orignally just wearing Capaldi's costume and they spent 50 dollars on a sweatshirt and a sportcoat for nothing. Must reiterate my interest in her getting a kind of Amelia Earhart / Amy Johnson "Golden Age aviatrix" outfit; you know, leather jacket, silk scarf, jodhpurs (good for running down corridors in), that sort of thing. I think that would make a good "core" costume which you could then modify as needed. I've been feeling reasonably upbeat about Chibnall lately. I think the story about him pushing hard for Whittaker suggests that he's got some sense of ambition for where he can take the programme, and the stories about him having a "five-year plan" for Who seems positive to me, since I think part of what made the first season of Broadchurch so effective was that it was clearly something he'd thought about and planned for a while. Quick, somebody post a still from "Cyberwoman" to get me back to my senses.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:14
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Murderion posted:... That was the exact opposite of my point, and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. I don't blame the actors for taking work, the vast, vast majority of actors aren't in a position to turn down speaking roles on primetime TV. It's not their responsibility to vet every role for 100% Correctness, and leaving a gig because you don't agree with what you're portraying is seen as completely unprofessional as it, y'know, is in fact unprofessional. Except some people call it a bad episode because it doesn't refute those institutional stereotypes. Apparently reinforcing stereotypes is the worst thing ever. For example: PriorMarcus posted:No its actually very racist and horrid. The negative characteristics they have are specifically racially and culturally loaded ones. And it does seem like there is a no win situation here. There is no possible way to fix the story. Nothing about the antagonists being a working class salvage crew who are willing to engage in a little opportunistic theft if they get the chance implies or requires any particular race. They could have made the family white without changing a single line of the script and nothing would have seemed out of place. The show has had plenty of venial white characters. But making the family white would engage in another level of institutional racism, where there is an overall shortage of minorities on TV. Would it have helped if the family was asian instead? What if they changed the story it wasn't a family but instead a multi-racial crew of unrelated individuals? Maybe if they changed the story so they remained a working class salvage crew family that happened to be black, but they only engaged in virtuous behavior? How would you fix this story to be non-racist?
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Aug 8, 2017 21:32
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Wheat Loaf posted:Must reiterate my interest in her getting a kind of Amelia Earhart / Amy Johnson "Golden Age aviatrix" outfit; you know, leather jacket, silk scarf, jodhpurs (good for running down corridors in), that sort of thing. I think that would make a good "core" costume which you could then modify as needed. I tried to google this look to remind myself what it looked like but there were enough of the sexy Halloween versions in image search that I had to roll my eyes and close the tab. e: Journey to the Center of the TARDIS is actually a bad episode because there isn't even room to deal with the characters is much capacity beyond stereotypes, because they spend the whole thing building up Clara & the Doctor's trust issues, and erase all progress they'd made with a reset button anyway.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:33
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Facebook Aunt posted:There is no possible way to fix the story. Nothing about the antagonists being a working class salvage crew who are willing to engage in a little opportunistic theft if they get the chance implies or requires any particular race. quote:How would you fix this story to be non-racist? Bicyclops posted:e: Journey to the Center of the TARDIS is actually a bad episode because there isn't even room to deal with the characters is much capacity beyond stereotypes, because they spend the whole thing building up Clara & the Doctor's trust issues, and erase all progress they'd made with a reset button anyway.
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Aug 8, 2017 21:57
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Bicyclops posted:I tried to google this look to remind myself what it looked like but there were enough of the sexy Halloween versions in image search that I had to roll my eyes and close the tab. Ah, yeah, that'll happen. Either that or "Amy Adams as Amelia Earhart" from Night at the Museum.
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Aug 8, 2017 22:07
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marktheando posted:
I'm working on a guide thing for the Doctor Who EU and came across this:  That is a legit cover. Incidently, this is one of the audios the BBC put their foot down on being too blatently unofficial Doctor Who audios. So BBV changed the names from the "Professor" and "Ace", to the "Dominie" and "Alice", and carried on as normal 
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Aug 8, 2017 23:48
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Facebook Aunt posted:And it does seem like there is a no win situation here. There is no possible way to fix the story. You fix the story by having people of all kinds of racial backgrounds in all kinds of roles, particularly by having people other than white men in the traditional "powerful, respected authority figure with agency" roles. Then it's no big deal that one small aspect or another reinforces stereotypes, because there's a deluge of different, nuanced portrayals of the true variety of a given race/gender/etc.'s true experience and no one has to obsess over small aspects of fairly inconsequential roles. In all of media, not just Doctor Who. Sound like a big lift? Sure it is, and working for it is a long, slow process. Until it happens, though, whenever someone other than presumptively straight white people of the appropriate gender* are cast (black folks in space; a woman Doctor), people will be very sensitive to every aspect of their portrayal, because representation is scarce, and the negative stereotypes are so damaging that anything that reinforces them (or fights against them) is important. If you want black folks/women/etc. in a role to be no big deal the way white folks are no big deal, work for a system in which they are cast so often and in such diverse roles that they're no big deal. You're also likely to get better representation when the writers and producers are diverse. RTD is an example of that wrt gay representation. Some of it felt forced at times (more a general aspect of his writing IMO—he was rarely subtle), but since RTD the gay representation we've gotten has been a bit mixed—very lesbian-for-the-straight-gaze Vastra/Jenny; Shepherd; Bill, who...was actually quite fantastic. But it's not for nothing that I can count the number of non-straight characters on one hand. * There's a whole other conversation to be had about the actual stereotypical casting that occurs, like the fact that companions are almost always women, and that having strong ones (like Leela) has frequently been beyond the show's ability to carry off. RTD Who was often worse in that way than under Moffat, despite Moffat's sexist reputation. E: The discussion of how the novels treated Ace is a good complement to this discussion.
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Aug 8, 2017 23:55
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remusclaw posted:In my extremely slow, 4 serials from finished, ongoing watch of everything, I don't think I enjoyed a single Doctor's run more than I did Pertwee's. He is not my favorite Doctor, but he probably has my favorite run of episodes and is certainly in my top 3 Doctors. yeah, he's awesome.
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Aug 9, 2017 00:00
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The new UNIT is so rubbish in every way compared to the Pertwee era one. Especially Kate 'did I mention my Dad' Stewart.
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Aug 9, 2017 00:18
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Chokes McGee posted:Supposedly the TARDIS is supposed to ease the regeneration process when they're away from Gallifrey, hence things like the Zero Room. Since Ten and Eleven specifically tossed it into flight right before hand, it probably has to be in motion to work.! Ten putting the TARDIS into flight before regenerating fits his whole "I don't want to go..." thing. Parking and waiting for the regeneration to happen would have been admitting his time was up and he wasn't going to do that. Eleven was so absent minded that it probably didn't even occur to him that regeneration and driving don't mix. I'm hoping Twelve regenerates in front of the First Doctor. If they are making a story about both struggling with accepting regeneration then what better way to welcome the new Doctor than by One seeing who he will eventually become and looking forward to it.
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Aug 9, 2017 00:29
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Senor Tron posted:Ten putting the TARDIS into flight before regenerating fits his whole "I don't want to go..." thing. Parking and waiting for the regeneration to happen would have been admitting his time was up and he wasn't going to do that. Yeah, but then he wouldn't remember it because the time lines are out of sync. The first doctor won't be able to learn anything from this.
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Aug 9, 2017 00:46
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Cojawfee posted:Yeah, but then he wouldn't remember it because the time lines are out of sync. The first doctor won't be able to learn anything from this. Rules are only rules for one episode and then they are suggestions at most. For this one I point you the "All teeth and curls?" exception.
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Aug 9, 2017 00:50
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One wasn't all that impressed with Two and Three A 'dandy and a clown' is what he called them, if memory serves Course, One always was a bit of a grouch, so I imagine he and Twelve are going to get along like a house on fire
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Aug 9, 2017 02:08
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Bicyclops posted:This is the issue in a nutshell. This is why these arguments are always such a fuckarow (in fact, it's why they are heated arguments instead of discussion). Even people who argue points frequently suggest that the people claiming something is insensitive are doing just because they're looking to be outraged which poisons the well and honestly, is patently ridiculous in every way. Astroman does it directly below: insisting that literally the only way someone could find racism in the episode is if they are searching for it everywhere. That's the lack of nuance, and it's really, incredibly stupid to believe that five people who posted about it are just walking around all day looking for something to manufacture outrage about. You have to absolutely bend over backward to believe that is how anyone except for an extremely tiny minority of people are acting, and it is always arguing in bad faith to suggest it. Always, every time. I notice one common thread in all your arguments though---that you are absolutely right and everyone on the other side of the issue is absolutely wrong and at best doesn't understand it as well as you. Murderion posted:... That was the exact opposite of my point, and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear. I don't blame the actors for taking work, the vast, vast majority of actors aren't in a position to turn down speaking roles on primetime TV. It's not their responsibility to vet every role for 100% Correctness, and leaving a gig because you don't agree with what you're portraying is seen as completely unprofessional as it, y'know, is in fact unprofessional. Yes, but you're missing my point--you assume the actors didn't agree with the portrayal but gutted it out anyway. And while I was being hyperbolic with the twitters, why don't you ask them? If they say "yeah, we saw that too but it was a great opportunity..." then I was wrong. But neither of us know what was in their heads then or now about the roles. CommonShore posted:This is going in circles. Do we have anything else we can discuss? I was pondering 13's probable costumes or styles the other day, but that's maybe not even a great topic. Well this is a time for discussing uncomfortable truths.  I do appreciate that we are having the discussion though and nobody has gone crying to a mod to demand a ban for wrongthink. But the Who thread has always been one of the more civiized ones. I don't know how they'll dress her but her enthusiasm in that video gives me greater confidence in her in the role! It goes a long way to assuaging my biggest doubt about her--that she was a non fan and wouldn't "get it."
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Aug 9, 2017 02:08
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Senor Tron posted:
I still think this version of the First Doctor is going to be in Twelve's head rather than him literally meeting One, but maybe I'm biased in terms of what I'd prefer to watch. Astroman posted:I notice one common thread in all your arguments though---that you are absolutely right and everyone on the other side of the issue is absolutely wrong and at best doesn't understand it as well as you. Only when the other side of the issue is "Everyone who is complaining about this just walks around looking for reasons to be offended," because it is both insulting and incredibly, thunderously stupid. Unless you are referring specifically to my remark about your belief that racism implies intent, in which case, Astroman, it's just you, and it's because in this case you actually just are specifically wrong 
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Aug 9, 2017 03:27
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Anyone catch Trust Me last night on BBC? Jodie Whittaker weren't half bad in it.
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Aug 9, 2017 04:07
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Vinylshadow posted:One wasn't all that impressed with Two and Three I suspect he'll be much happier with Thirteen. Either "that's not so bad" or "finally" or (my favorite) "my goodness, that takes me back."
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Aug 9, 2017 04:09
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Bicyclops posted:I still think this version of the First Doctor is going to be in Twelve's head rather than him literally meeting One, but maybe I'm biased in terms of what I'd prefer to watch. Do you realize how difficult it is to discuss it when you're saying "they weren't intending to be racist, but because of these inherent societal structures of racism that are built in around us they were racist anyway and perpetuating stereotypes so they should have done it differently"? Your argument is "it's racist. You can't say it's not because it. just. is. Even if you think it's not." My argument is: they didn't intend to be racist. It wasn't racist. Just because a minority is portrayed as doing wrong doesn't make it racist. The only way to not do that is to not cast minority people as villains (or in this case, even cast them as flawed people, because those guys weren't really villains). Not to mention I, and a lot of other people, didn't dream up the "lol they're black so they're stealing cars" stereotype until people like you pointed it out.  That never entered my head when watching it. It (probably) didn't enter the heads of the producers, writers, or the black actors. Or vast majority of the viewing public. So if nobody saw it, then the harm came when you pointed it out. Then suddenly it became damaging and racist. You think you're pointing out problems and raising awareness, but you're creating them instead. Assuming the general public actually listens to you, and doesn't dismiss what you're saying as silly and trivial. And if they do, they're more likely to do the same when serious, actual problems are pointed out which is even more damaging.This is a lot like the discussion in The 100 thread where you had a few people (really one person) melting down because one of the many gay characters on there was killed off and it was supposedly yet another "Fridging the Lesbian" trope and the implication was the writers made the character gay as a trick to get gay people to watch and then cruelly killed her because gays can't be happy and must die for the sake of drama or something. Then as discussion went on it was revealed that said poster pretty much only started watching the show in Season 2 because she heard it had lesbians and shipped those two characters herself. Most of the thread realized how silly this all was. But part of the discussion was "if you're going to have more representation of gay people in fiction, then sometimes they will die/be bad guys etc and it's not because they're gay, but because they are characters who don't have character shields around them." To say that Doctor Who is somehow tone deaf and made a major racism misstep because it's "progressive but progressive shows make mistakes or are rooted in their past" is silly as well. This is a show that replaced an Old White Military Leader with a black woman--and not just with the Gallifreyan General a couple seasons ago, how about in 1989 with Brigadier Bambera? The same era they shocked us with the "No Coloureds" sign in Remembrance of the Daleks, pointing out how lovely society was in the year the show debuted? Or cast a black man in an interracial relationship in the revival, a guy who went from a schulb mooning over his girlfriend to a cool action hero? The same production team and showrunner that gave us these alleged "space carjackers" also gave us Bill. So if they were just unintentionally racist, then racism becomes some minefield that you need a degree in social justice to navigate, because even the most innocuous thing can somehow have massively horrible connotations and somehow be massively offensive and damaging and you'll never know it unless you run it by a whole panel of experts. But that's something Peter Davison now well knows I suppose.
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Aug 9, 2017 04:14
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Astroman posted:the most innocuous thing can somehow have massively horrible connotations and somehow be massively offensive and damaging Read this bit a few times. This is literally how systemic and institutionalized racism works, and spreads.
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Aug 9, 2017 04:20
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Some of the problem here is that I already did ten rounds on this specific case the last time it came up, and rewatching it, I really hate the episode for unrelated reasons, so I'm not going to go into a contextual line-by-line on how I feel about some side characters whose story was kind of half-ignored anyway, but some of the way you argue this at all is so obstreperous that it abstractly condemns all discussion on this topic in its entirety. Like, seriously:Astroman posted:
Those first two sentences are actually just wrong. "They didn't intend for there to be racism, so there wasn't any" is an absolute non-starter as an argument, and "a minority... portrayed as doing wrong" isn't what people take issue with. You're obsessed with the second idea because you can't conceive of the premise of your first idea not bearing out. I'm not getting into your apparent feud about the depiction of a lesbian character in a show I didn't watch, and most of the rest of your words are trying to defend Doctor Who from ever being accused of regressive portrayals by highlighting its progressive ones. It's not a binary proposition, in which a piece of media is either Good and Progressive or Bad and Racist; you are caught on that idea, again, because you genuinely seem to believe that racism necessitates intention. Are stereotypes and our relationship with them complicated? Of course they are. Things get murky. Not everyone agrees. It's not clear-cut and it can be a morass to navigate. Systematized oppression is loving complicated! People with the best of intentions are going to make mistakes. Nobody is asking for a "panel of experts" to pre-approve all media, nor would it even help. It's okay to criticize an episode of television, or particular aspects of an episode, and still think it's a good episode. Nobody is making perfect the enemy of the good here, but when something follows an uncomfortable pattern and they bring it up for discussion, maybe, just maybe, things wouldn't turn into a heated shouting fest if the first response weren't always somebody assuming they are literally looking for reasons to be mad (often when nobody even is mad). This is why I clash with you specifically when these things come up, because A) you reject the idea that racism does not require intent, B) you pre-assume bad intentions on the part of anyone who criticizes and C) you're real loving obnoxious about both.
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Aug 9, 2017 04:41
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jivjov posted:Read this bit a few times. I understand that. I just disagree that it exists in every single time it's pointed out. If it is that pervasive, it's impossible to fight, because it's literally everywhere at all times and in all things. No matter what, somebody could find some sort of hidden sexism/racism/anti-gay/transphobic/ableist etc message in everything. You can't every make that world better without the most extreme measures of censorship or Harrison Bergeronesque measures. 
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Aug 9, 2017 04:51
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If the time zombies are the future then how can Clara jumping into the Doctor's timestream also be the future? And yet it must be the future because he's already met two of her echoes! It's interesting that this episode doesn't just foreshadow the end of the series, it kind of foreshadows the Capaldi era, which is a big mess of multiple intersecting, sometimes contradictory, self-causation loops
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Aug 9, 2017 04:54
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