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R. Guyovich posted:it's worth defending the things we like in them. blanket dismissing the history of actually existing socialism leaves us with no positive politics besides some weaksauce social democracies basically everything in the immediate aftermath of the revolution was extremely good as hell and it's a shame Lenin didn't live another 30 years. there's a whole lot of lessons to take away from both the policies and organizational model of the soviets
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Aug 9, 2017 04:08
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R. Guyovich posted:it's worth defending the things we like in them. blanket dismissing the history of actually existing socialism leaves us with no positive politics besides some weaksauce social democracies heritage not hate
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Aug 9, 2017 04:09
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The soviets, yes. The soviet union, particularly in its latter years, no.
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Aug 9, 2017 04:09
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bump_fn posted:prosperity gospel is the only religion in america hth
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Aug 9, 2017 04:13
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Like nearly every bad thing in the last 100 years, Stalin and his brutal processes would likely have not been necessary if the West didn't decide the Soviet Union was an untenable abomination they had to extinguish.
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Aug 9, 2017 04:13
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Larry Parrish posted:Like nearly every bad thing in the last 100 years, Stalin and his brutal processes would likely have not been necessary if the West didn't decide the Soviet Union was an untenable abomination they had to extinguish.
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Aug 9, 2017 04:14
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we can even see learning from the past for socialist construction taking place within the 20th century. for example, collectivization in the ussr was plagued by errors, leading to bad harvests and deaths. when the eastern bloc and dprk collectivized in their postwar years, though, it happened relatively painlessly. none of the famines anti-communists claim is endemic to the ideology. china's a different story, obviously, but their revolutionary situation was different. which isn't to say we're gonna have to collectivize in the exact same way as countries did in the 20th century, just that a part of what made successive states improve on their forbears was a careful, critical analysis of history and material reality rather than the "let's start over from scratch" attitude i see a lot in left spaces Larry Parrish posted:Like nearly every bad thing in the last 100 years, Stalin and his brutal processes would likely have not been necessary if the West didn't decide the Soviet Union was an untenable abomination they had to extinguish. this is true but should also read "every country on the face of the earth" in the case of the russian civil war R. Guyovich has issued a correction as of 04:20 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 9, 2017 04:17
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Larry Parrish posted:Like nearly every bad thing in the last 100 years, Stalin and his brutal processes would likely have not been necessary if the West didn't decide the Soviet Union was an untenable abomination they had to extinguish. it's really incredible looking at this and all the other revolutionary governments destroyed by CIA/MI6 interference that the Cuban revolution went as well as it did and survived for this long right on the doorstep of an entity committed to destroying them
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Aug 9, 2017 04:21
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Dat capitalist encirclement baby! https://soundcloud.com/detona-1/parentimix
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Aug 9, 2017 06:02
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Larry Parrish posted:I know Sac DSA is either straight running candidates or at least endorsing people for the various city and suburb governments. That's what the other branches should do IMO. I'm trying to figure out who's going to run for the eligible county supervisor board seat in my own county. This is cool and good and makes me really want our chapter to have long-distance mentors from Sac(ramento, I hope you mean).
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Aug 9, 2017 06:45
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thing
ChickenOfTomorrow has issued a correction as of 22:17 on Sep 28, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2017 06:58
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R. Guyovich posted:this is true but should also read "every country on the face of the earth" in the case of the russian civil war To be fair except for the Latin and Central Americans (most of which were equally destabilized during this period) most of the world was owned by like 8 countries
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Aug 9, 2017 09:57
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empireofcrime posted:People at the convention who voted for him and others that looked at this bio and materials provided for the election seem pretty pissed since in no part of it did he indicate that he worked for CLEAT. It is also clear that he worked for CLEAT at one time or another since his name comes up in what appears to be an official capacity in the org. Austin members also admitted to knowing he had worked for CLEAT before and as said before, he didn't make it clear that he worked for the org in his election materials(he was very specific with other unions he had worked for, but was for some reason vague and mentioned organizing for "state workers". This bio doesn't contain the words "state workers," so what election materials are you talking about?
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Aug 9, 2017 12:20
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TomViolence posted:The Soviet Union is pretty instructive for lessons on what not to do when you're building the socialist society of the future. It's a great narrative for capitalists in the West, because it played very well into how investors tried to sell privatization to the public, as a dream of 'efficiency', free from 'red tape' - that actually turned out to be nothing more than a self-serving rationalization, to get away with exploiting people more, with less oversight, while paying less in taxes.
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Aug 9, 2017 12:42
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GunnerJ posted:This bio doesn't contain the words "state workers," so what election materials are you talking about? Should've left that part out since I haven't seen any materials that mention state workers, just going off what I heard.
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Aug 9, 2017 13:06
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empireofcrime posted:Should've left that part out since I haven't seen any materials that mention state workers, just going off what I heard. I'm concerned about this now because I was involved in drafting a response to the situation for my chapter that cites this omission. Without a source I feel quite uneasy about it because relying on the rumor mill is how we get "DSA elected a cop!" in the first place.
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Aug 9, 2017 13:13
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ruh roh looks like we gotta kick CWA out of DSA CWA Local 6911 http://www.cleat.org http://www.cwa1105.org/union_links.php
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Aug 9, 2017 13:20
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this is all the biggest dumbest thing in the world and nobody knows what they're talking about. here's the texas state employees union (that he did the vast majority of his work with as far as i know(no cops)) link CWA Local 6186 http://www.cwa-tseu.org cwa has a million sub-unions
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Aug 9, 2017 13:23
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here's the verizon collaborator union links: CWA Local 1124 http://mysite.verizon.net/cwa1124 CWALocal 1128 http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqe2wj/
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Aug 9, 2017 13:29
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after reading that bio again he didn't obscure anything and this is the DSA being guilty of high twitter.com crimes
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Aug 9, 2017 13:30
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jarofpiss posted:after reading that bio again he didn't obscure anything and this is the DSA being guilty of high twitter.com crimes As an Austin member, obviously 100% agreed. However, you're not completely accurate. While the absolute vast majority of his work was in organizing non-police state workers like EMT and prison staff (cooks, not guards), and helped prevent prisoners being forced to have tattoos identifying them as HIV+, in his capacity as a CWA organizer, he also did in two instances organize a sheriff's office that was asking for collective bargaining powers. He's done an obscene amount of good, and I in no way think he was "guilty of omission" in his bio, but in his 40-year stint as an organizer for labour organizations he did end up organizing cops. It's also noteworthy imo that he hasn't been associated with CLEAT in any capacity for 4+ years, and the LinkedIn profile that shows up when you google his name was created immediately before the convention and is most assuredly fake. It shows him as a current CLEAT organizer (not true), shows that as his only work (not true), and shows his only connections as CLEAT (not true). Danny doesn't use the internet, period, and even his emails are done by someone else.
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Aug 9, 2017 13:57
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Syndlig posted:As an Austin member, obviously 100% agreed. However, you're not completely accurate. While the absolute vast majority of his work was in organizing non-police state workers like EMT and prison staff (cooks, not guards), and helped prevent prisoners being forced to have tattoos identifying them as HIV+, in his capacity as a CWA organizer, he also did in two instances organize a sheriff's office that was asking for collective bargaining powers. He's done an obscene amount of good, and I in no way think he was "guilty of omission" in his bio, but in his 40-year stint as an organizer for labour organizations he did end up organizing cops. I found this illuminating and I ended up sharing it with a couple people, so thanks for taking the time to write it.
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Aug 9, 2017 14:16
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right i know he did work with CLEAT (which i think is bad), but i think that the purges here are gonna have to cut pretty deep into organized labor if this is the standard we're setting (which i think is dumb and bad) edit: i NOW know about CLEAT but i dont think he obscured or lied about anything jarofpiss has issued a correction as of 14:25 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 9, 2017 14:23
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jarofpiss posted:right i know he did work with CLEAT (which i think is bad), but i think that the purges here are gonna have to cut pretty deep into organized labor if this is the standard we're setting (which i think is dumb and bad) 1) the issue is that he apparently obscured his business with the police and, even unintentionally, took advantage of good faith 2) there's different sets of standards between a general member and national leadership. I think it's unreasonable for him to get kicked out of the org, but the NPC should be held to a higher level of scrutiny
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Aug 9, 2017 14:29
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R. Guyovich posted:we can even see learning from the past for socialist construction taking place within the 20th century. for example, collectivization in the ussr was plagued by errors, leading to bad harvests and deaths. when the eastern bloc and dprk collectivized in their postwar years, though, it happened relatively painlessly. none of the famines anti-communists claim is endemic to the ideology. china's a different story, obviously, but their revolutionary situation was different. Are there any books you can recommend criticising the Soviet construction of socialism from the left? I'm currently reading Post War by Tony Judt which discusses collectivization/Stalinization in Czechoslovakia at some length and I'd love a similar treatment of the subject from a modern Marxist perspective.
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Aug 9, 2017 14:30
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I haven't seen anybody suggest that he should be kicked out of DSA, even the angriest people just think there're too many potential problems for a leadership position. With respect to big unions, there have been ongoing calls from leftist orgs to ask CWA, AFL-CIO, etc. to disassociate from police unions.
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Aug 9, 2017 14:31
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Syndlig posted:As an Austin member, obviously 100% agreed. However, you're not completely accurate. While the absolute vast majority of his work was in organizing non-police state workers like EMT and prison staff (cooks, not guards), and helped prevent prisoners being forced to have tattoos identifying them as HIV+, in his capacity as a CWA organizer, he also did in two instances organize a sheriff's office that was asking for collective bargaining powers. He's done an obscene amount of good, and I in no way think he was "guilty of omission" in his bio, but in his 40-year stint as an organizer for labour organizations he did end up organizing cops. tell the san jacinto college racist hiring story where he organized the black workers to get their benefits info
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Aug 9, 2017 14:31
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Business Gorillas posted:1) the issue is that he apparently obscured his business with the police and, even unintentionally, took advantage of good faith the point im making is that his bio says he was a CWA organizer, which he was and only was to my knowledge. within that capacity he did work with other sub unions, none of which are explicitly listed on his bio. the CWA includes many unions. that's not misleading anyone, that's not listing every department you ever worked in because you dont want your resume to be 75 pages or whatever.
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Aug 9, 2017 14:35
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I know I don't post much in this thread but the Fetonte thing has had me curious After a couple quick searches I've concluded that simply with the limited involvement it appears Fetonte has had with the local law enforcement unions that I agree that it's a twitter war/overblown thing. https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/895115863103352833 http://www.socialist.net/changing-consciousness-within-the-police.htm quote:However, we should be careful not to equate the institution of the police with individual officers. While the institution represents one of the “bodies of armed men and women”, referred to by Lenin, that defend the ruling class and which must be overthrown by the revolutionary movement, the officers themselves should not automatically be tarred with the same counter-revolutionary brush. Behind the uniforms police officers are individuals and, like all individuals, their consciousness is shaped by their own experience of personal, local and world events. Sure cops can be bad but that doesn't mean they're not people who can be and are influenced and exploited by the machinations of the ruling class. It's important to remember that most of the damage is done by the biased administration of the institution rather than individual employees of that institution. Sure if Fetonte was more involved than it appears with CLEAT there could be questions, but so far it just seems like people want a purity test to only consider 'untainted' people. It's about as effective as not electing anyone who has touched money or used the current capitalistic system, as in terms of that deductive reasoning any sort of involvement in an institution that perpetuates the exploitation of citizens is bad enough to not be considered for leadership.
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Aug 9, 2017 14:37
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GunnerJ posted:I haven't seen anybody suggest that he should be kicked out of DSA, even the angriest people just think there're too many potential problems for a leadership position. i totally agree with that, we need to have a discussion about where we draw the line with regards to organized labor that includes state workers. my problem is that the org set itself on fire with zero understanding of the context or actual facts around this, just a linked in page. and now we have people writing statements and sending petitions and calling danny a cop. this is BAD fuckin news for solidarity
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Aug 9, 2017 14:38
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ThndrShk2k posted:good stuff acab still imho, but im really worried about the extremely online nature of DSA that this has even happened like it has
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Aug 9, 2017 14:41
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https://twitter.com/DSAVeterans/status/895278373672505345
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Aug 9, 2017 14:41
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jarofpiss posted:my problem is that the org set itself on fire with zero understanding of the context or actual facts around this, just a linked in page. and now we have people writing statements and sending petitions and calling danny a cop. this is BAD fuckin news for solidarity There is a larger political context of the role of police and police unions on a more than just an ideological level. There is the issue of connections with other leftist orgs, esp. ones that focus extensively on racial justice. DSA has made itself an abolitionist org in that context, and needs to be taken seriously as such for that to mean anything. At the very least, even if Danny acted in 100% good faith, it is a super bad look for someone who didn't consider his work with CLEAT significant to be on the national leadership of an abolitionist org. But I don't like anything about how any of this went down either and wish I'd looked more into things before making statements on the basis of a rumor alone. And I worry about the precedent it sets if DSA going forward reacts to any embarrassing rumor about itself like this.
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Aug 9, 2017 14:43
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jarofpiss posted:acab still imho, but im really worried about the extremely online nature of DSA that this has even happened like it has I still see the officers as human though, which is important in my opinion
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Aug 9, 2017 14:45
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jarofpiss posted:acab still imho, but im really worried about the extremely online nature of DSA that this has even happened like it has Is it though? I've only seen a few people talking about it, most others stayed silent to see what happens.
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Aug 9, 2017 14:46
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personally i think an organizer with the credentials and experience that danny has lends a lot of credibility to our organization and i have no problem with someone like him on our npc given that we endorsed prison abolition on saturday and he did the little cop organizing he did several days before that
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Aug 9, 2017 14:58
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when danny was organizing i was also not a prison abolitionist and in fact only became one because my local is infested with anarchists and they put it on my radar
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Aug 9, 2017 14:59
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i say infested in the most comradely terms
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Aug 9, 2017 15:03
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The most active members of my local are basically some degree of libsoc or anarchocommunist, and since joining I've gone from "I think Socialism is pretty cool I guess" to "Revolution now! Smash the capitalists and burn their institutions of oppression to the ground!" under their tutelage. Hell, a good chunk of our delegation voted in favour of the amendments and resolutions that called for disengagement from the Dems.
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Aug 9, 2017 15:33
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also i want to state again that DSA was not prison abolitionist before sunday so im not sure how far back we can prosecute someone for not believing that
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Aug 9, 2017 15:55
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