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Cat Mattress posted:Sure, this is all perfectly logical and reasonable and is dictated merely by the wish of Israel to look like a first world country, that is to say, one where you don't have to see too many black-skinned children. Haredi's having lots of kids isn't a problem because they want every child to live a good life and live to adulthood and beyond. First-generation Ethiopian Jews wanted lots of kids for their labor and because of the expectation that only a few of them would live to adulthood, which are reasonable reasons to have lots of kids in Ethiopia, but not in Israel.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:43
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qkkl posted:Haredi's having lots of kids isn't a problem because they want every child to live a good life and live to adulthood and beyond. First-generation Ethiopian Jews wanted lots of kids for their labor and because of the expectation that only a few of them would live to adulthood, which are reasonable reasons to have lots of kids in Ethiopia, but not in Israel. the untermenschen, you see, have a lot of kids like -this-, while the master race have a lot of kids like -this-.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:47
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qkkl posted:Haredi's having lots of kids isn't a problem because they want every child to live a good life and live to adulthood and beyond. If you were a woman, you would have a different opinion of how good life will be for the Haredim's daughters.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:49
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R. Mute posted:So I have to wonder, how does it feel to eagerly use the very argument that was planted to justify crimes against humanity by those that committed those crimes? Many people would argue that calling something "genocide" when it is clearly not, however horrible it actually is, only serves to trivialize the charge.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:49
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I want to say that the ultimate consensus on that ended up being that it wasn't really something decided by the government and was more or less something done independently. My memory is a little hazy but I feel like the conversation gradually clarified into thinking "this is bad, but not quite as terrible initially believed."
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Aug 9, 2017 18:50
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qkkl posted:Haredi's having lots of kids isn't a problem because they want every child to live a good life and live to adulthood and beyond. First-generation Ethiopian Jews wanted lots of kids for their labor and because of the expectation that only a few of them would live to adulthood, which are reasonable reasons to have lots of kids in Ethiopia, but not in Israel. I don't even know why I tried being calm and respectful here. You're a racist poo poo.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:54
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Keeshhound posted:Many people would argue that calling something "genocide" when it is clearly not, however horrible it actually is, only serves to trivialize the charge. Ytlaya posted:I want to say that the ultimate consensus on that ended up being that it wasn't really something decided by the government and was more or less something done independently. My memory is a little hazy but I feel like the conversation gradually clarified into thinking "this is bad, but not quite as terrible initially believed."
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Aug 9, 2017 18:55
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I don't even know why I tried being calm and respectful here. You're a racist poo poo. I'm just putting myself in the Israeli government's shoes and trying to find a non-racist reason for why they tolerate the Haredi having low employment and lots of kids, but not first generation Ethiopian Jews.
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Aug 9, 2017 18:59
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qkkl posted:I'm just putting myself in the Israeli government's shoes and trying to find a non-racist reason for why they tolerate the Haredi having low employment and lots of kids, but not first generation Ethiopian Jews.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:00
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Also you're not doing a very good job.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:01
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Last Buffalo posted:Well, it's certainly horrible, but it's not sterilization. It's non-consensual birth control, which is majorly hosed up. Doesn't make it genocide or a eugenics program. It's pretty hard to see the Israeli health services doing this to a group of European refugees though. I think it could definitely be considered eugenics. It's still attempting to lower the overall rate of birth of a particular ethnic group, even if the sterilization isn't permanent. R. Mute posted:Independently? A bunch of rogue doctors? Look, did a bunch of Ethopian women get injected with birth control against their will or not? If yes, then yes, it's quite as terrible as initially believed. Yeah, don't get me wrong, the act itself is inexcusable. I just remember there being some sort of general consensus that it wasn't an official government policy to do this (though I'm sure the government certainly didn't mind much). I'm not saying this so much because it's something I believe, but more in the hopes that someone who recalls last time this came up better than I do can elaborate.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:02
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"Ah, but it wasn't against their will, it was merely without their informed consent, because they were led to believe it was some vaccine or something."
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Aug 9, 2017 19:02
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R. Mute posted:why It's fun, like trying to solve a puzzle. Kind of like how it's fun to understand why a particular design for a perpetual motion machine doesn't work.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:07
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qkkl posted:Haredi's having lots of kids isn't a problem because they want every child to live a good life and live to adulthood and beyond. First-generation Ethiopian Jews wanted lots of kids for their labor and because of the expectation that only a few of them would live to adulthood, which are reasonable reasons to have lots of kids in Ethiopia, but not in Israel. Hahahahaha. So apparently Ethiopians are robots without empathy who do not want their children to be healthy/happy and just want to work them into an early grave. qkkl posted:It's fun, like trying to solve a puzzle. Kind of like how it's fun to understand why a particular design for a perpetual motion machine doesn't work. Okay, I see what you're doing, but have you considered the more reasonable possibility that they're just racist?
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Aug 9, 2017 19:08
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Last Buffalo posted:Well, it's certainly horrible, but it's not sterilization. It's non-consensual birth control, which is majorly hosed up. Doesn't make it genocide or a eugenics program. It's pretty hard to see the Israeli health services doing this to a group of European refugees though. Nonconsensual birth control is by definition eugenics whether permanent or not.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:13
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Ytlaya posted:Hahahahaha. So apparently Ethiopians are robots without empathy who do not want their children to be healthy/happy and just want to work them into an early grave. First generation Ethiopians came from a culture where having a high child mortality was normal, so first generation Ethiopian parents would feel less bad about a child dying from a preventable disease than Haredi parents. Ytlaya posted:Okay, I see what you're doing, but have you considered the more reasonable possibility that they're just racist? Of course, the fun part is finding reasonable non-racist reasons though.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:15
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qkkl posted:First generation Ethiopians came from a culture where having a high child mortality was normal, so first generation Ethiopian parents would feel less bad about a child dying from a preventable disease than Haredi parents. Dont you get it people? Their 'culture' turns them into emotionless subhumans not worth our empathy
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Aug 9, 2017 19:18
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R. Mute posted:I have to wonder. Clearly the reason why they opted for x-monthly injections rather than something more permanent despite the end results being basically the same if they hadn't been rumbled is plausible deniability and to open up the argument that it's not technically sterilization/eugenics/ethnic cleansing/whatever just in case they do end up exposed. I don't think it's "clearly" the reason. I mean, if they really thought that the black Ethiopian Jews were not humans and wanted them purged from Israeli society, they'd not have quickly brought them in the first place. Yeah, if they were 100% evil, they probably would be looking to slowly poison the women with polonium. OTOH, if they're taking in refugees from a 3rd world country en mass, and they see them more a people to be managed than equals, then they're more likely to be giving them birth control for the short term practicalities of living in a refugee camp. Israel has always dealt with mass immigrants in a messy way, even when they're Jewish. When the Mizrahi Jews came en masse, they faced a lot of discrimination because of racism and the cultural/religious gulf. It wasn't until they organized into a political force that they were able to enjoy the access to power they have now.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:22
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R. Mute posted:Many people can suck my dick, but also Last Buffalo was the only one calling it a genocide. Or specifically, saying it wasn't. Let's try this a different way then: the Geneva convention has strict guidelines for determining what is and is not genocide. For my part, I think there's a strong case if you can prove that the birth control was being utilized with the intent to diminish or destroy the Ethiopian Jewish population. For your part, apparantly the facts are less important than whether or not people want to join you in using inflamatory language instead of determining what exactly the gently caress happened. Case in point: quote:Independently? A bunch of rogue doctors? Look, did a bunch of Ethopian women get injected with birth control against their will or not? If yes, then yes, it's quite as terrible as initially believed. I can believe the Israeli government is capable of a whole fuckton of terrible things, but that doesn't mean I'm going to believe that they had a hand in this terrible thing without actual proof. And if they didn't have a hand in it, then as terrible as it is, it doesn't have any more relevance to this discussion than whatever atrocity Un has visited upon the North Korean people recently.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:22
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Nevvy Z posted:Nonconsensual birth control is by definition eugenics whether permanent or not. What do you think "Eugenics" means? If they were giving them the birth control because they wanted less Ethiopians in the gene pool, that's eugenics. If they were giving them birth control because they wanted to reduce the amount of resources required by those living in refugee camps and housing, then it's not Eugenics. Neither one is acceptable or excusable, but one is insistent on an ideological reading of what's clearly a more complex case.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:33
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Last Buffalo posted:OTOH, if they're taking in refugees from a 3rd world country en mass, and they see them more a people to be managed than equals, then they're more likely to be giving them birth control for the short term practicalities of living in a refugee camp. en masse? From previously posted articles it seemed more like they were parking them into camps and trying to bribe them into going elsewhere, anywhere else. Keeshhound posted:Let's try this a different way then: the Geneva convention has strict guidelines for determining what is and is not genocide. For my part, I think there's a strong case if you can prove that the birth control was being utilized with the intent to diminish or destroy the Ethiopian Jewish population. Not diminish or destroy, just prevent it from increasing within Israel.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:33
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Cat Mattress posted:en masse? From previously posted articles it seemed more like they were parking them into camps and trying to bribe them into going elsewhere, anywhere else. Those articles were about illegal African immigrants who came to Israel without Israel's knowledge.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:39
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Do you guys realize the Depo Provera shots have to be taken every three months or do you think it's some magical sterilization shot? The accusation here isn't even that the women were fooled into thinking the shots weren't contraceptive as only one woman ever made that claim, the actual controversy here is that some women claim to have been coerced to take the shots at the JDC clinics in ethiopia and that they were never properly informed about the side effects of Depo Provera usage, at least the latter part of that has been well substantiated recently when after the Israeli Ministry of Health issued a directive to doctors not to renew Depo prescriptions without informing the women about its side effects and the alternatives Depo usage has dropped by 40%. I think that the Israeli policy defenders here would be better off actually reading up about this subject cause defending indefensible poo poo that didn't really happen is not super productive. 420 Gank Mid posted:http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/10/eritrean-refugees-israel-uganda-rwanda-161024130201856.html So are we're ignoring the whole "Ethiopian Jews" thing and conflating it wholesale with Israel's treatment of African immigrants and refugees?
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Aug 9, 2017 19:43
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Keeshhound posted:Let's try this a different way then: the Geneva convention has strict guidelines for determining what is and is not genocide. For my part, I think there's a strong case if you can prove that the birth control was being utilized with the intent to diminish or destroy the Ethiopian Jewish population. I think you mean the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide rather than the Geneva convention. Otherwise, yes I would say this very likely falls under the definition of genocide. The requirement is: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Now the main area of dispute will be in part and whether the Ethiopian sterilisation qualifies, as presumably no-one is arguing they were trying to prevent births within all Ethiopian Jews. Now just affecting a few people, which technically a part of the group, is not what the convention is after. As per the ICTY this must be a substantial part that is intended to have repercussions on the whole - not simply 2+ people. From my own point of view, if they were carrying out this birth control programme then presumably it must have been because they wanted to make a significant difference in birth rates among Ethiopian Jews - otherwise why bother with a programme you think will make no difference?
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Aug 9, 2017 19:46
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Keeshhound posted:Let's try this a different way then: the Geneva convention has strict guidelines for determining what is and is not genocide. For my part, I think there's a strong case if you can prove that the birth control was being utilized with the intent to diminish or destroy the Ethiopian Jewish population. And that's a bad thing. A bad thing people shouldn't be minimizing or defending.
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Aug 9, 2017 19:47
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qkkl posted:Haredi's having lots of kids isn't a problem because they want every child to live a good life and live to adulthood and beyond. First-generation Ethiopian Jews wanted lots of kids for their labor and because of the expectation that only a few of them would live to adulthood, which are reasonable reasons to have lots of kids in Ethiopia, but not in Israel. Just to be fully clear here, are you saying Ethiopian Jews did not want "every child to live a good life and live to adulthood"?
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Aug 9, 2017 20:00
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R. Mute posted:Keeshhound are you completely loving stupid? Can you read words that are put before you? How about the different way that you can try in your next post is to read what I'm saying before making these tedious rear end posts. To spell it out: I'm not calling this a genocide. I don't think this is a genocide. I'm saying that these Ethopian women were given birth control without their consent in what amounts to de facto sterilization. They were given these injections in Israeli clinics, by Israeli doctors. Even if we continue under the assumption that the fact that all these Ethiopian women were given this specific type of birth control is just some coincidence or mistake or whatever (pls clarify), the fact is that it still very clearly falls under the responsibility of the Israeli government. Let's take this from the top then: you asked a baldfacedly accusatory question with the clear intent to tie Last Buffalo to a position they had not endorsed; defending the Israeli government for their part, whatever it might be in this, dismissing any value that might exist in clarifying the nature of the atrocity. I then provided an explanation for why people might in fact find value in doing so that would not involve a defense of the regime. You apparently found this unconvincing, or immaterial. I responded by clarifying my own position, and responding to your declaration that who was at fault didn't matter because it's a horrible act regardless. I posted an argument that, by the very nature of this debate, it does, indeed matter who is involved. Your position that because this happened in Israeli clinics, this is their responsibility is confusing, because I don't think anyone is debating that they need to provide aid to the afflicted. I'll be honest, I don't know what the issue is; I'll apologize for misrepresenting your position, but to move forward, if you don't care about how this crime is categorized, why does it bother you that other people do?
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Aug 9, 2017 20:09
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Orange Devil posted:Just to be fully clear here, are you saying Ethiopian Jews did not want "every child to live a good life and live to adulthood"? First generation Ethiopian Jews didn't expect every child they had to live a good life and live to adulthood, and this expectation would cause them to not care about their children's health and well-being as much as Haredi parents. Here's a made up anecdotal example: "Mommy, my stomach hurts." First generation Ethiopian parent: "Sorry, we don't have the time or money to go to the doctor, take this placebo medicine and deal with it." Haredi parent: "Let's go to the neighborhood health clinic that gives free care for Haredi children, your dad can take you since he doesn't work*". *I don't actually know if Haredi fathers who study Torah as a "job" are allowed to take time off to help their kids.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:10
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qkkl posted:First generation Ethiopian Jews didn't expect every child they had to live a good life and live to adulthood, and this expectation would cause them to not care about their children's health and well-being as much as Haredi parents. Here's a made up anecdotal example: Ah so this is this "race realism" I have been hearing tell of.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:14
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qkkl posted:First generation Ethiopian Jews didn't expect every child they had to live a good life and live to adulthood, and this expectation would cause them to not care about their children's health and well-being as much as Haredi parents. Would it though? Would it really?
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Aug 9, 2017 20:16
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Let us remember that they are using this argument in service of nonconsensual/coercive administration of birth control. Even if we assumed that claim was true and not profoundly racist (haha), it is still a serious violation of medical ethics. And if the goal is to make it so that the Ethiopian Jews have better qualities of life, you could, I don't know, use resources to improve their material conditions? Maybe give them a reason to expect better outcomes for their children? Except, you know, I'm pretty sure they were never passively allowing their children to die or suffer.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:21
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qkkl posted:No, because Ashkenazi couples could either support their children themselves, or had a community that could help them support their children (i.e. a poor father with lots of kids had a rich brother who helped support them). Ethiopian Jews didn't have those things, so if they had lots of children they would have grown up in very poor conditions. Remember that Israel wanted Ethiopian Jews to come to Israel so their lives would be better. Part of making their lives better was making sure they didn't have more kids then they could support. 
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Aug 9, 2017 20:27
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Seriously, what the gently caress is wrong with you, qkkl?
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Aug 9, 2017 20:27
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"Ethiopian Jews aren't being given the support that other Jews get in Israel. Hmm, we could extend that support net to cover them as well, or better yet..."
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Aug 9, 2017 20:31
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Keeshhound posted:I'll be honest, I don't know what the issue is; I'll apologize for misrepresenting your position, but to move forward, if you don't care about how this crime is categorized, why does it bother you that other people do? To me, personally, it doesn't matter much how it's categorized because it cleared a line beyond which anything is reprehensible to me. With other people, however, it's clear that their line isn't in exactly the same place. qkkl may be a crazy idiot, but other people going 'ACTually' and throwing a fit about words not being an exact fit are helping muddy the water and are creating doubt where there clearly shouldn't be any. After all the objections about what it's not (genocide? sterilization? Israel's responsibility?), it's easy for people to forget about what it actually is. And in the end, nothing changes.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:42
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Mr. Lobe posted:Seriously, what the gently caress is wrong with you, qkkl? I have him on ignore for a reason.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:43
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Mr. Lobe posted:Let us remember that they are using this argument in service of nonconsensual/coercive administration of birth control. Even if we assumed that claim was true and not profoundly racist (haha), it is still a serious violation of medical ethics. I would argue that it's ethical to give medical treatment to an individual without their consent if that medical treatment is good for the individual and the individual would refuse the treatment because of ignorance. Mr. Lobe posted:And if the goal is to make it so that the Ethiopian Jews have better qualities of life, you could, I don't know, use resources to improve their material conditions? Maybe give them a reason to expect better outcomes for their children? Except, you know, I'm pretty sure they were never passively allowing their children to die or suffer. Israel did spend resources to improve Ethiopian Jewish material conditions. Adult first generation Ethiopian Jewish immigrants had an ingrained belief about what outcomes they would expect for their children and it would be too difficult to educate them about what outcomes they should expect for their children. However the children of first generation Ethiopian Jewish immigrants would receive a modern education and thus there was no need to give them birth control without their consent.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:47
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Ah yes, the unenlightened savages just didn't know what was good for them, not like the state of Israel did. Not hard to see why you appear to approve of their colonial ambitions in general.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:55
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R. Mute posted:This whole thing is incredibly blatant in how any discussion about it is supposed to play out. The discussion about if it's sterilization or not, the question of how involved the Israeli state was, the vagueness of the response, all of it. It's not that anyone sat down and specifically said 'let's do it this way to muddy the water if we get caught' - it's not a conspiracy. It's that this has become natural whenever a state/organisation/whatever does something questionable - or rather, horrifying. Plausible deniability all the way down. It's not new and it's not exclusive to Israel, but it's so blatant and so overwhelmingly obvious that people in this thread willingly going along with it is grating to say the least. Ok, I genuinely do get that, but if you go into this poo poo only looking for evidence that confirms your theory of guilt, you're not going to find anything that contradicts it, and that is not a path anyone here should want to go down any more than already happens. Assuming "I'm right, and anyone who tries to look closer is just getting in the way" is how the US ended up with more than %40 of votes cast for Donald Trump. The more certain you are of something, the more scrutiny you need to apply to that belief.
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Aug 9, 2017 20:55
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Keeshhound posted:Ok, I genuinely do get that, but if you go into this poo poo only looking for evidence that confirms your theory of guilt, you're not going to find anything that contradicts it, and that is not a path anyone here should want to go down any more than already happens.
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Aug 9, 2017 21:05
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