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It's understandable that Battler didn't make it back until the next conference, but it's weird he completely forgot about this whole thing even after seeing Shannon again. I hope there's some kind of reason for that. EDIT: oh his mom died soon after and he was busy hating his dad until he chilled out after a few years, I guess I'll take that Sindai fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Aug 11, 2017 |
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Aug 11, 2017 17:14
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Tired Moritz posted:honestly the ages in this still keep confusing the hell out of me. George is graduated from college age EagerSleeper posted:So this is Battler's sin, huh? I wonder what happens in a year that makes Yasu really bear a...grudge(?) about Battler neglecting on that promise. Just not showing up when everything else in Yasu's life is okay doesn't seem very murder-worthy. Yasu's life is pretty lovely 360 days out of the year, and not only did Battler not show up in a year like he promised, he completely forgot about not only his promise to take Shannon away from her lovely life, but about their relationship all together. And besides, this stage play is only half-way over, there's still a mountain of terrible poo poo to heap on poor Yasu. I have to say, though, I'm still a touch confused about what exactly is going on with proto-Beato here. If Shannon is in the driver's seat of Yasu's body most of the time, being a human and all, and Beatrice is just playing make-believe 24/7, in what way can she be said to exist? If this is some sort of split personality thing going on here, if one of the personalities doesn't have a body are they really any better than an imaginary friend? Just the personification of Shannon's imagination? Was Kanon created to Spearmint Beatrice could have an avatar with a physical body? Or did Yasu start develop actual romantic feelings for Jessica and then created a boy persona so they could be safely expressed (and then proceeded to steadfastly never express them)? Or am I gonna go back to the totally unsupported Weird Twins and imagine one of them decided to be a witch and has been living in the walls for several years?
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Aug 11, 2017 17:16
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I love that he's name-checking Ellery Queen here. Queen doesn't get enough respect these days. EagerSleeper posted:So this is Battler's sin, huh? I wonder what happens in a year that makes Yasu really bear a...grudge(?) about Battler neglecting on that promise. Just not showing up when everything else in Yasu's life is okay doesn't seem very murder-worthy. He just said he would definitely come back next year riding a white horse and sweep Shannon away. Instead of that, I assume next year is when he quits being a member of the family. So Yasu is going to spend the next year looking forward to this happening and then it isn't going to. If you're in love, this would be a pretty crushing blow. I assume other stresses will be added as well, but if you're already a bit unstable and someone you love just totally forgets about you, that's gonna hurt. Sindai posted:It's understandable that Battler didn't make it back until the next conference, but it's weird he completely forgot about this whole thing even after seeing Shannon again. I hope there's some kind of reason for that. I'm going to go with "he was, like, twelve years old or something". I doubt I can remember 5% of the stupid poo poo I said when I was that age.
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Aug 11, 2017 17:16
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Honestly for all that he plays up being SO MATURE AND THE ADULT HERE George kind of strikes me as emotionally delayed by a few years. Like reminder that he turned over a new leaf because he, a 17 year old, was jealous of the attention 12 year old Battler was getting from 10 (12) year old Shannon. I'm not even being rude here, he honestly feels to me as being written a few years younger than he really is, and I'm not sure if he's just absurdly immature or if he's got some legit developmental delays, considering Maria. But it's really hard to tell because we never see how George interacts with people outside of the context of his fairly younger cousins and Shannon. We never get to see George with a peer.
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Aug 11, 2017 17:16
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idonotlikepeas posted:I'm going to go with "he was, like, twelve years old or something". I doubt I can remember 5% of the stupid poo poo I said when I was that age. I agree, and I also think the timing of his mom's death is important. Not only is the loss of a parent a hugely crushing blow that's going to emotionally cloud over a lot of things, but his falling out with the Ushiromiya family happens because he figures out basically right after that Rudolf has been loving and dating Kyrie on the side the entire time he was married to Asumu, and that the happy family of Rudolf and Asumu and Battler that Battler thought existed was... not a complete lie, but a lot more adult and complicated and sad and scary than Battler could have imagined at the time he was crushing on Shannon. It wouldn't surprise me if Battler got disillusioned with the concept of love and romance hard, and his happy thoughts of Shannon took the brunt of that blow.
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Aug 11, 2017 17:21
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I think George is just written weirdly or the ages got mixed up because there's no hint of "hey it's kinda weird that you have a crush on someone 7 years younger than you". I'm just gonna pretend George's just some kind of teen genius. It's not like their ages had come into play and it makes Jessica's constant comments on how much older he acts make a lot more logical sense.
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Aug 11, 2017 17:30
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idonotlikepeas posted:I'm going to go with "he was, like, twelve years old or something". I doubt I can remember 5% of the stupid poo poo I said when I was that age. It seems like Japanese romance audiences are expected to take interactions at that age more seriously.
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Aug 11, 2017 18:13
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Doc Hawkins posted:It seems like Japanese romance audiences are expected to take interactions at that age more seriously. Given how seriously Childhood Marriage Promises are taken in anime (Ah! My Goddess comes to mind). Also anyone notice Battler's comment about the heart/motive in mystery is very strikingly similar to Will's when he stepped in to save the wrongfully accused servant.
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Aug 11, 2017 18:31
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Aug 11, 2017 18:32
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Umineko loves foreshadowing. Forever.
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Aug 11, 2017 18:34
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Robindaybird posted:Also anyone notice Battler's comment about the heart/motive in mystery is very strikingly similar to Will's when he stepped in to save the wrongfully accused servant. Yeah. Since Will is imaginary even in the (already imaginary) world of the story and his entire character was manufactured by the Mysterious Forgery Writer, that's probably evidence that the forgery writer had talked to Battler about mystery books at some point. (Given how seriously Shannon seems to take it here, it supports my hypothesis that the writer is Yasu.)
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Aug 11, 2017 18:48
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Aug 11, 2017 18:58
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I'm going to take the talk of them being middle school and near-middle school in this update as a quiet George Age retcon, rendering his age from earlier in the story as incorrect. Because I need that.
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Aug 11, 2017 19:03
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Doc Hawkins posted:It seems like Japanese romance audiences are expected to take interactions at that age more seriously. Well yeah, Umineko has been taking anime tropes and doing the unexpected (or the unexpectedly realistic) with them since the beginning.
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Aug 11, 2017 19:04
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idonotlikepeas posted:Yeah. Since Will is imaginary even in the (already imaginary) world of the story and his entire character was manufactured by the Mysterious Forgery Writer, that's probably evidence that the forgery writer had talked to Battler about mystery books at some point. (Given how seriously Shannon seems to take it here, it supports my hypothesis that the writer is Yasu.) So you think Hachijo is Yasu, having escaped after the typhoon and setting up a new life?
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Aug 11, 2017 19:41
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quote:None of us humans can live on our own. And yet, we have no way of peeking into the hearts of others. That's why every meeting between people... is a mystery of the heart. Finding those, reasoning about them, and understanding each other is the key to interactions between people and hearts. The two of us are here, all alone, talking together about mysteries. And through that... We are searching out each other's hearts, speaking of the heart's mysteries... 
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Aug 11, 2017 20:08
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As I was reading the beginning part of this update, I was thinking "you know, it's too bad that this friendship with the cousins couldn't have started a little sooner, because it seems to be pretty good for Shannon/Yasu to have some normal, friendly interactions like this, but since the Beatrice personality has already split off, we know that it's now too little, too late." And then I finished the update and realized that no, it's worse than that, because these interactions did seem to be helping Shannon, at least, to heal a bit, and it was starting to look like learning to see love in this way could maybe actually help Beatrice reintegrate with Shannon so that Yasu could become a whole person again, and then Battler had to go gently caress it all up, although through no actual intention or malice, and break Yasu irreparably.
Confused Llama fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Aug 11, 2017 |
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Aug 11, 2017 20:10
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And that ends up going back to Rudolf's abysmal way of treating his lovers and family, which goes back to how he was influenced by Kinzo - come to think of it, in a way, his situation is not too unlike Kinzo's - marry one woman, keep screwing around with another, minus the incest. So gently caress Kinzo.
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Aug 11, 2017 20:43
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idonotlikepeas posted:I love that he's name-checking Ellery Queen here. Queen doesn't get enough respect these days. Yeah, he(they?) doesn't get enough respect these days. Ironically he's more popular in Japan than in the west nowadays, from what I've observed. I don't comprehend how Van Dine was more popular when Queen was basically Van Dine but better in every way. Wish Umineko had gone for a Queen based character, but I think Ryukishi wanted to stick with writers who made rules and stuff. Though I still think Will's personality is more suited for Carr than anything else. Queen did some fun 4th wall things that feel very at home with Umineko(well, mainly one thing I'm thinking of).
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Aug 11, 2017 21:26
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Robindaybird posted:[buildup to...] Agreed.
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Aug 11, 2017 22:17
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Confused Llama posted:As I was reading the beginning part of this update, I was thinking "you know, it's too bad that this friendship with the cousins couldn't have started a little sooner, because it seems to be pretty good for Shannon/Yasu to have some normal, friendly interactions like this, but since the Beatrice personality has already split off, we know that it's now too little, too late." And then I finished the update and realized that no, it's worse than that, because these interactions did seem to be helping Shannon, at least, to heal a bit, and it was starting to look like learning to see love in this way could maybe actually help Beatrice reintegrate with Shannon so that Yasu could become a whole person again, and then Battler had to go gently caress it all up, although through no actual intention or malice, and break Yasu irreparably. I don't believe I said this earlier, but the higher you go, the farther you can fall. And so it is in this case. Seeing glimpses of a hope of getting away, of being someone else, and then losing it... Hopeford posted:Yeah, he(they?) doesn't get enough respect these days. Ironically he's more popular in Japan than in the west nowadays, from what I've observed. I don't comprehend how Van Dine was more popular when Queen was basically Van Dine but better in every way. Wish Umineko had gone for a Queen based character, but I think Ryukishi wanted to stick with writers who made rules and stuff. Though I still think Will's personality is more suited for Carr than anything else. Queen did some fun 4th wall things that feel very at home with Umineko(well, mainly one thing I'm thinking of). Doing some quick historical checking, it's likely due to the fact that Van Dine came first, and also inspired Queen.
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Aug 11, 2017 22:20
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Ok, pointing out the parallels between Kinzo's story and Rudolf's got me wondering how different things would have been if Kinzo's wife had died during the war
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Aug 11, 2017 22:22
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ZiegeDame posted:Ok, pointing out the parallels between Kinzo's story and Rudolf's got me wondering how different things would have been if Kinzo's wife had died during the war I mean Beatrice still wouldn't legally exist... yet. I'm sure with his new fortune Kinzo could work something out.
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Aug 11, 2017 22:33
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Cyouni posted:Doing some quick historical checking, it's likely due to the fact that Van Dine came first, and also inspired Queen. He did. Queen followed the Van Dine school(his early books, especially his first, are basically a carbon copy of Van Dine's style) but he branched out early on to write phenomenal mysteries by himself. Dine also benefited from having movies made about his works(he had some connections that made this easier) and other things. Queen had some adaptations produced, mostly radio if I recall correctly, but Van Dine wrote his mysteries with a more Hollywood appeal in mind. (Some of his climaxes seem entirely out of place for this reason) I just mostly wish Queen had received Dine's fame. Though they did enjoy a fair amount of fame back then, including the most ridiculous stunts where the two brothers dressed up in masks, pretended to be different writers and challenged each other to detective battles in big fancy dinners while pretending to hate each other.
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Aug 11, 2017 22:42
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Games > Let's Play! > No, Seriously, gently caress Kinzo - Let's Play Umineko Chiru
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Aug 11, 2017 23:25
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idonotlikepeas posted:I love that he's name-checking Ellery Queen here. Queen doesn't get enough respect these days. It's 1978 or so. Maybe they share a love of Freddie Mercury's band. And there's Yasu wishing it could be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6grozh4ZGsI when we know the song is really "All Dead, All Dead" 
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Aug 11, 2017 23:35
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idonotlikepeas posted:Yeah. Since Will is imaginary even in the (already imaginary) world of the story and his entire character was manufactured by the Mysterious Forgery Writer, that's probably evidence that the forgery writer had talked to Battler about mystery books at some point. (Given how seriously Shannon seems to take it here, it supports my hypothesis that the writer is Yasu.) Isn't it Bernkastel that's writing the current story, not Featherine/Hachijo?
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Aug 11, 2017 23:37
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Kytrarewn posted:Isn't it Bernkastel that's writing the current story, not Featherine/Hachijo? I don't think Bern is writing anything, just stitching together story fragments.
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Aug 11, 2017 23:53
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PetraCore posted:I don't think Bern is writing anything, just stitching together story fragments. Well, either way, the major differences between this story and the last one is Bern's influence on the writing/interpretation/whatever you want to call it, since I think we're supposed to believe that Featherine was involved in all of the previous episodes. That said, we do have that scene with Ange and the professor, in which it's made clear that the handwriting on the forgeries is the same as the extra handwriting in Maria's notebook, so Feather/Hachijo = Yasu might not be entirely off-base. So... is Bernkastel an avatar of someone else with whom Battler has passionately discussed his problems with the mystery genre, but who may or may not be physically existent in the present day? Asumu? Jessica or George who we know were eavesdropping on the "I'll come save you on a white horse" conversation and may have heard the earlier part? Kytrarewn fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Aug 12, 2017 |
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Aug 12, 2017 00:08
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Kytrarewn posted:Well, either way, the major differences between this story and the last one is Bern's influence on the writing/interpretation/whatever you want to call it, since I think we're supposed to believe that Featherine was involved in all of the previous episodes. Hmmm. I guess the thing is we know Yasu 'wrote' the stor(ies) in 1983, but we don't know who's writing in the present day, only that they have some connection to Battler. The person writing in the present day is Hachijo or acting through Hachijo, but I don't think Hachijo is Yasu because if she was, why does she need to work to figure out which story is the one that actually happened? Shouldn't she know? There's definitely something here to asking 'who's writing', though. If things were just about the events in 1983 there wouldn't be a need for Ange's present to be a part of the story.
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Aug 12, 2017 00:31
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PetraCore posted:So you think Hachijo is Yasu, having escaped after the typhoon and setting up a new life? Yep, that is precisely my contention. Kytrarewn posted:Isn't it Bernkastel that's writing the current story, not Featherine/Hachijo? Neither Bernkastel nor Featherine exist. Hachijo seems to, as the writer of most of the episodes. No matter who is appointed game master in the fiction of the stories, so far the authors seem to be Yasu (the first two) or Hachijo (the remaining ones). The question is, who is Hachijo and how is she able to write successful forgeries? The simplest answer is that she's the same author as the originals. PetraCore posted:Hmmm. I guess the thing is we know Yasu 'wrote' the stor(ies) in 1983, but we don't know who's writing in the present day, only that they have some connection to Battler. The person writing in the present day is Hachijo or acting through Hachijo, but I don't think Hachijo is Yasu because if she was, why does she need to work to figure out which story is the one that actually happened? Shouldn't she know? Who says Yasu is trying to figure it out? We know at least two different stories were written by Yasu, neither of which matched the real events (since Eva didn't survive them). Yasu is not under any obligation to write the real truth. The original stories were love letters to Battler; why wouldn't that be true of the remaining stories as well? What's being explored in those stories is not the truth of the historical events; if the writer is anyone that lived on that island, presumably they are already aware of the truth.
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Aug 12, 2017 01:13
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I guess I feel like writing about the gruesome murders of your entire family for over a decade after you already orchestrated events that lead to their deaths is pretty hosed up, although that doesn't disqualify Yasu, who is pretty objectively hosed up.
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Aug 12, 2017 02:24
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I'm coming around to the Hachijo=Yasu theory, but I think it would only work if she never killed anyone.
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Aug 12, 2017 02:47
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Kytrarewn posted:So... is Bernkastel an avatar of someone else with whom Battler has passionately discussed his problems with the mystery genre, but who may or may not be physically existent in the present day? Asumu? Jessica or George who we know were eavesdropping on the "I'll come save you on a white horse" conversation and may have heard the earlier part? I suppose it doesn't contradict any red for 17 year old Battler to have met a 13 year old Furude Rika when he was living with Asumu's parents, but I'm gonna say it'd go even beyond Weird Twins in the realm of being highly unlikely. Though that does remind me, I thought of a little game we could play to fill the time while Prof is on break. Think up the most ludicrous, batshit theory you can that doesn't contradict any red truth we've seen. I'm talking poo poo that'll make small bombs seem reasonable. Knox's rules need not apply.
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Aug 12, 2017 04:11
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ZiegeDame posted:Ok, pointing out the parallels between Kinzo's story and Rudolf's got me wondering how different things would have been if Kinzo's wife had died during the war Rosa won't exist, if I got the rough years of birth right - and thus no Maria. Beatrice can't legally exist, but with that gold and the post-war chaos, it probably wouldn't be too hard to find someone willing to forge papers that places her nationality or alleged allegiance to one that's less problematic, and then buy the forger's silence one way or another. Though given how unhealthily fixated he is on Beatrice, even having her as a legal wife may not prevent the projection onto their daughter, only difference is possibly someone in the family protecting Beatrice 2, being their known sister. But that assumes so many things including the siblings realizing it and having either the courage or the care to try to do something about it.
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Aug 12, 2017 04:55
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ZiegeDame posted:I suppose it doesn't contradict any red for 17 year old Battler to have met a 13 year old Furude Rika when he was living with Asumu's parents, but I'm gonna say it'd go even beyond Weird Twins in the realm of being highly unlikely. The real way the culprit gets around all those locked rooms is by clinging to the ceiling like Spider-Man. Nobody ever thinks to look up
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Aug 12, 2017 05:08
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Robindaybird posted:Rosa won't exist, if I got the rough years of birth right - and thus no Maria. It is really easy to imagine Eva and Krauss being absolutely vicious to Beatrice Jr. since Kinzo would obviously play favorites, but assuming as much as possible remains the same she at least wouldn't fall to her and would probably still benefit from knowing more than 4 other humans. And in Episode 3 Krauss showed enough protective instinct for his siblings that he might actually stand up to Kinzo if he realized the old bastard had raped and impregnated his little sister. We'd probably wind up with some version of Lion instead of Yasu.
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Aug 12, 2017 05:12
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A point worth noting is that the siblings, whatever feelings they might or might not develop towards Beato 2, would almost certainly all jump at the chance to throw Kinzo into prison or an asylum so they could plunder his holdings. You can't necessarily trust their bravery or altruism, but you can sure as hell trust their greed and oppurtunism.
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Aug 12, 2017 05:25
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ZiegeDame posted:Though that does remind me, I thought of a little game we could play to fill the time while Prof is on break. Think up the most ludicrous, batshit theory you can that doesn't contradict any red truth we've seen. I'm talking poo poo that'll make small bombs seem reasonable. Knox's rules need not apply. Asumutrice!!
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Aug 12, 2017 05:26
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Asumutrice!! So the balcony scene is actually about sins of the father
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Aug 12, 2017 05:47
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