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marktheando posted:That's an interesting one, since abortion isn't really a big political issue in the UK like it is in the US. None of the major parties want to ban or restrict abortion. Its rarely a topic of debate. I'm ignoring Northern Ireland. It doesn't even make sense as being anti-abortion. The "baby" doesn't have a mother- it's an alien- and is literally in the process of being born. Is the Earth the metaphorical mother, since it's Earth that's at risk? But Clara's the actual focus of the episode, and she's an outsider to "this" Earth, meaning someone else is making decisions on behalf of the "mother"- the Earth wants the "abortion". Same problem if you assume Lundvik is meant to be the "mother"- the final decision isn't hers. So I guess Clara is the "mother"? So being vapourised in an atomic explosion is a metaphor for having an abortion? At the end of the episode the "baby" vanishes forever, requiring nothing of whatever parents it's supposed to have in the way of responsibility, or care, or love. So the moral is what, that abortion is surrendering your life for a greater cause while giving birth is quick, painless and leaves your life unchanged once it's done?
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Aug 12, 2017 22:25
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marktheando posted:I'm ignoring Northern Ireland. Imagine a  smilie except instead of a crying bulldog it's a bloke in a balaclava.
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Aug 12, 2017 22:29
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The moon episode was obviously just a trolley problem variant. Everyone outside of the US agrees that abortion should be free for everyone, no questions asked.
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Aug 12, 2017 23:20
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Mymla posted:The moon episode was obviously just a trolley problem variant. Tell that to Ireland lol
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Aug 12, 2017 23:23
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I think I'm just going to accept that Astroman is an incorrigibly stupid broken record and ignore him on these kinds of issues going forward. Anyway, the real problem with To the Moon, on a rewatch, is the same issue I have with The Caretaker. I'm on Clara's side. What the Doctor does is downright abusive (and he's really mean to that little girl, too!). I liked that the first time I watched it, because I thought it was interesting to make us stop trusting the protagonist for some reason, but, eh, this isn't the show for that. I want to root for the space wizard, not be scared of him. All that stuff about pulling off the training wheels and how humanity has to do it on their own is trash, he's been there plenty of times to facilitate, even when he does let humanity do it on their own. And making his companion and a child do it without his help is downright monstrous. I don't think it's meant to be about abortion, though, any more than Horton Hears a Who is. It's unfortunate that they keep using the word "baby," and that they sometimes try to lean on "science." (The real issue with the Moon being an egg is that its silliness is way at odds with the dreadfully serious nature of the rest of the episode), but it still feels accidental to me. It's basically the "Is the Doctor an Abusive rear end in a top hat?" season's version of the Space Whale episode. I think season 8 is the first season I've liked less on the rewatch than I thought I would. Clara and Danny are nice, but the Doctor is really hard to tolerate.
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Aug 13, 2017 00:04
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I might go with "Oh it being an abortion metaphor was unintentional" if it wasn't for 1) they call it a baby or child a bunch, and 2) there's a big glowy red screen saying ABORT
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Aug 13, 2017 00:27
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jivjov posted:I might go with "Oh it being an abortion metaphor was unintentional" if it wasn't for 1) they call it a baby or child a bunch, and 2) there's a big glowy red screen saying ABORT Isn't the ABORT to NOT abort the baby Moon thing, though? Th "baby" over and over again is really unfortunate, it's super bad writing.
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Aug 13, 2017 00:31
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Bicyclops posted:Isn't the ABORT to NOT abort the baby Moon thing, though? Th "baby" over and over again is really unfortunate, it's super bad writing. I think so? But the use of the word "abort" in reference to a hatching egg baby thing is just too much for me to believe its coincidental
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Aug 13, 2017 00:38
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I think we can all agree Harness is a bad enough writer that even the things he doesn't mean to include are muddled and confused. Because like, that was totally an abortion metaphor, but not one he actually wrote. Because NO ONE could write that. Who would even conceive of it? Who is the parent here? The actual parent, the Earth, Clara? Who was actually supposed to decide? Because the Earth chose one thing and Clara chose another. Is it for or against abortion? The answer is, no one cares and it doesn't matter because it is a metaphor that accidentally was shitted out haphazardly. It exists, but it cannot be dissected because it was never meant to be. It should have been Aborted
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Aug 13, 2017 00:45
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jivjov posted:I think so? But the use of the word "abort" in reference to a hatching egg baby thing is just too much for me to believe its coincidental I'm not taking a position on whether it was an intentional metaphor or not, but has no one in this thread ever heard of aborting a countdown before? It would have been really weird for that button to have said anything else. I do think that Kill The Moon could have been a good episode with a major editing pass, but that's kind of Season 8 in a nutshell, isn't it?
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Aug 13, 2017 01:06
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docbeard posted:I'm not taking a position on whether it was an intentional metaphor or not, but has no one in this thread ever heard of aborting a countdown before? It would have been really weird for that button to have said anything else. Again, had the episode not centered around the termination of a not-yet-born lifeform, I'd completely agree with you.
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Aug 13, 2017 01:38
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docbeard posted:
Mummy on the Orient Express is really good, at least. Foxes singing "Don't Stop Me Now," the Doctor offering jellybabies in a fancy cigar cage, a gang of Agatha Christie characters who are more spot on than the characters in the Agatha Christie episode, Twelve playing in the dust with a stick at the end, the engineer being offered a place in the TARDIS and turning it down, the intriguing mystery, the solution... Jamie Mathieson has already said he's probably not going to be asked to write when Chibnall takes over, which is a bummer, because his episodes on the show have been really good.
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Aug 13, 2017 01:46
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jivjov posted:Again, had the episode not centered around the termination of a not-yet-born lifeform, I'd completely agree with you. The biggest reason I'm inclined to lean away from the intentional theory is because the dilemma being presented is otherwise radically different from the typical situation involving abortion. Burkion spelled out quite a lot of problems of it as a successful abortion metaphor, but one more is that a child being born typically doesn't imperil the lives of billions of innocent bystanders. It really is the Space Whale story again as Bicyclops said, where the dilemma is whether one innocent and unwilling sacrifice for the lives of many is morally justifiable.
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Aug 13, 2017 01:50
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Bicyclops posted:Mummy on the Orient Express is really good, at least. Foxes singing "Don't Stop Me Now," the Doctor offering jellybabies in a fancy cigar cage, a gang of Agatha Christie characters who are more spot on than the characters in the Agatha Christie episode, Twelve playing in the dust with a stick at the end, the engineer being offered a place in the TARDIS and turning it down, the intriguing mystery, the solution... The only way Mummy on the Orient Express could have been better is if it had turned out, somehow, that all the other scientists onboard were various incarnations of the Doctor too. Really, I think it's the arc of Season 8 that suffers due to what really feels like being rushed. I think the only two really bad episodes are Moon and In The Forest Of The Night (and that at least had some amazing cinematography). I've watched Dark Water/Death In Heaven quite recently and loved every moment. I absolutely love a lot of what they try to do with Season 8, and they almost but not quite get there.
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Aug 13, 2017 01:57
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Mummy on the Orient Express was probably one of Capaldi's best episodes.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:16
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The only bad thing about Mummy on the Orient Express is that it's immediately followed by Flatline, which is even better and overshadows Mummy pretty hard.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:20
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One part where I think the story arc in season eight falls down (maybe even falls apart - I'm not sure) is when we get to see Danny's flashback to his tour in Iraq, because I think the takeaway from that scene is that it was his mistake that resulted in a tragic outcome. I feel like it's supposed to suggest that he was given a bad order and felt duty-bound to carry it out, which is why he resents officers who are isolated from the consequences of their decisions and how those decisions resulted in him doing something he's ashamed of, but the way it plays out on screen, it doesn't exactly manage to come off that way. Maybe they just didn't have the space or maybe there was as scene that was cut, I haven't a clue. His last line about how "it's not an officer giving these orders - it's a soldier" feels strange to me as well in retrospect, but maybe that's less to do with any of that stuff and more because, erm, I think officers are soldiers, aren't they?  I'm not really sure what I think of the Doctors antipathy towards soldiers in season eight. It fits the character, of course, but it still feels off with how it's written in that season. I think it might be because, other than the woman from "Into the Dalek", it comes off more as him being personally nasty to Danny than anything else. Tangentially-related to Doctor Who, I have been rewatching some of the Harry Potter movies (first time in who knows how long - hoping to re-read the books at some stage, which I've never actually done before - read them as they came out and haven't touched them since) and I'd actually forgotten David Tennant was in it. It's strange seeing him, since it's a pretty significant pre-Tenth Doctor role for him. Sort of like Tom Hardy in Star Trek: Nemesis (albeit less so, of course). (Those movies all look really good, if nothing else.)
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Aug 13, 2017 02:29
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Wheat Loaf posted:
don't know many army people huh
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Aug 13, 2017 02:33
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Cleretic posted:The only bad thing about Mummy on the Orient Express is that it's immediately followed by Flatline, which is even better and overshadows Mummy pretty hard. I'm finishing it up now and liked it a lot. The shrinking TARDIS (with Twelve stuck inside) is good mine for humor, Clara does a good job carrying the episode, Rigsy is a cool guy in my book, the monsters are vaguely spooky, and the real villain is that disgusting guy running the community service. When he walks away at the end, having survived, and Capaldi looks at him with utter disgust, it captured much of how I've been feeling today.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:35
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I think we can all agree that Heaven Sent is the Best Doctor Who episode, though.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:36
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corn in the bible posted:don't know many army people huh I used to, but I know more T.A. people than regular army folks nowadays.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:37
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Mymla posted:I think we can all agree that Heaven Sent is the Best Doctor Who episode, though. I hate the Clara story and I hate that too
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Aug 13, 2017 02:37
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Wheat Loaf posted:I'm not really sure what I think of the Doctors antipathy towards soldiers in season eight. It fits the character, of course, but it still feels off with how it's written in that season. I think it might be because, other than the woman from "Into the Dalek", it comes off more as him being personally nasty to Danny than anything else. I think it makes a sort of sense, given that his prior incarnation just spent the last millennium or so fighting a hopeless stupid war, right on the heels of having spent a part of his life he'd much rather have forgotten fighting an even more hopeless, even more stupid war and dealing with the fallout from that ever since. But I wish we'd had more of a basis that was shared with the audience for "dude who's literally traveled with soldiers more than once and whose closest human friend for a long time was a career military man suddenly can't stand to be in the same room as a soldier", yeah.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:37
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...I'd put World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls above Heaven Sent, honestly. (And I liked Clara so there.)
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Aug 13, 2017 02:39
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Bicyclops posted:The "baby" over and over again is really unfortunate, it's super bad writing.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:41
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Bicyclops posted:I'm finishing it up now and liked it a lot. The shrinking TARDIS (with Twelve stuck inside) is good mine for humor, Clara does a good job carrying the episode, Rigsy is a cool guy in my book, the monsters are vaguely spooky, and the real villain is that disgusting guy running the community service. When he walks away at the end, having survived, and Capaldi looks at him with utter disgust, it captured much of how I've been feeling today. I admit I am a little biased in favor of Flatline, because the Boneless are such an interesting enemy to me because of just how weird they are. It's the same sort of space and dimension-fuckery I liked in House of Leaves, with some really striking imagery and really fascinating potential concepts. The Boneless are the sort of enemy that disappears into obscurity for years before getting revived in a Big Finish story or a weird one-off episode, and I'm looking forward to when that happens.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:41
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docbeard posted:I think it makes a sort of sense, given that his prior incarnation just spent the last millennium or so fighting a hopeless stupid war, right on the heels of having spent a part of his life he'd much rather have forgotten fighting an even more hopeless, even more stupid war and dealing with the fallout from that ever since. Sure, like I say, it's been part of the character all the way back to the early days, not even just Pertwee butting heads with the Brigadier and bemoaning the limitations of the military mind etc. I think maybe it's supposed to service the Clara arc, where the Doctor wants someone who'll think for themselves and stand up to him instead of just following orders, but I'm thinking about the bit in "Into the Dalek" where he says something like, "I would have loved to have taken you with me... but you had to be a soldier," at the end, which seemed off to me even though I'm not exactly sure why. To me, the more Doctor-ish thing for him to do in that specific case probably would've been to encourage her to "be more than just a soldier" or something like that.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:45
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docbeard posted:...I'd put World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls above Heaven Sent, honestly. (And I liked Clara so there.) WEaT/TDF hold together better as a whole but Heaven Sent might possibly be a stronger individual episode than either of them. So they both win in different categories!
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Aug 13, 2017 02:53
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Burkion posted:I think we can all agree I'm not the man's biggest fan but in this post you're... arguing against a subtext he didn't write into the episode and concluding that the inconsistent nature of that nonexistent subtext makes him a bad writer? Who on earth could win against that
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Aug 13, 2017 03:49
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jivjov posted:Again, had the episode not centered around the termination of a not-yet-born lifeform, I'd completely agree with you. Wheat Loaf posted:One part where I think the story arc in season eight falls down (maybe even falls apart - I'm not sure) is when we get to see Danny's flashback to his tour in Iraq, because I think the takeaway from that scene is that it was his mistake that resulted in a tragic outcome. I feel like it's supposed to suggest that he was given a bad order and felt duty-bound to carry it out, which is why he resents officers who are isolated from the consequences of their decisions and how those decisions resulted in him doing something he's ashamed of, but the way it plays out on screen, it doesn't exactly manage to come off that way. Maybe they just didn't have the space or maybe there was as scene that was cut, I haven't a clue Mymla posted:I think we can all agree that Heaven Sent is the Best Doctor Who episode, though. docbeard posted:I think it makes a sort of sense, given that his prior incarnation just spent the last millennium or so fighting a hopeless stupid war, right on the heels of having spent a part of his life he'd much rather have forgotten fighting an even more hopeless, even more stupid war and dealing with the fallout from that ever since. 
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Aug 13, 2017 04:00
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2house2fly posted:I'm not the man's biggest fan but in this post you're... arguing against a subtext he didn't write into the episode and concluding that the inconsistent nature of that nonexistent subtext makes him a bad writer? Who on earth could win against that WHat makes him a bad writer is the fact that he expertly wrote in a confusing muddled mess of an Abortion metaphor where everyone can agree that one is THERE, but no one can agree how the gently caress it works or what it's about. Writers accidentally put messages into their stories all the time, especially in sci fi. Some times they do it on purpose I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that this was an accident.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:09
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Burkion posted:everyone can agree that one is THERE, I disagree.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:45
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Mymla posted:I disagree. Are you everyone I didn't think so
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Aug 13, 2017 04:51
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Flatline is superb, and just edges out Mummy on the Orient Express overall for me. But the moment in Mummy when the 12th Doctor "arrives" is astonishingly great. Pushing that woman to the brink of misery/despair and then putting the "gun" to his head and transferring everything she is feeling to himself, then using the 60 seconds to solve the mystery and defuse the threat.... 
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Aug 13, 2017 04:52
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Cleretic posted:The Boneless are the sort of enemy that disappears into obscurity for years before getting revived in a Big Finish story or a weird one-off episode, and I'm looking forward to when that happens. Could be a long wait. I'm still waiting for the Megara to come back. How long will the Doctor get away with his crime of opening the wrong door??? 
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Aug 13, 2017 04:57
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Facebook Aunt posted:Could be a long wait. I'm still waiting for the Megara to come back. How long will the Doctor get away with his crime of opening the wrong door??? I love that serial. It's very Douglas Adams-y.
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Aug 13, 2017 05:08
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Jerusalem posted:Flatline is superb, and just edges out Mummy on the Orient Express overall for me. But the moment in Mummy when the 12th Doctor "arrives" is astonishingly great. Pushing that woman to the brink of misery/despair and then putting the "gun" to his head and transferring everything she is feeling to himself, then using the 60 seconds to solve the mystery and defuse the threat.... Those episodes are both so great, and it's no real insult to Jamie Mathieson to say nothing he's written for the show since has been as good. Mummy gets some real mileage out of quickly drawn secondary characters in a way very few episodes really do, and the 66 second gimmick is so fun. And Flatline moves so drat fast, last time I watched it I took stock less than halfway through of how much had happened and how much was still to go, so much happens without feeling like anything is being skipped over or rushed, just really really good pacing. Compare to Extremis where basically one thing happens for the entire episode, and I love Extremis but Mathieson can make things active and urgent in a way Moffat really can;t. That train driver, "I've always wanted to ram something"- one drat line of dialogue and I like that character and am invested in his survival. He's introduced like 10 minutes from the end and just feels like one of the gang. I'm drunkenly ranting but if you exclude Moffat and RTD I really don't think there's any New Who writer who's had two episodes this strong.
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Aug 13, 2017 05:31
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Mymla posted:I think we can all agree that Heaven Sent is the Best Doctor Who episode, though.  Well, maybe the best not written by Robert Holmes. No, wait, there's still... We can't agree. That would go against the laws of the universe.
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Aug 13, 2017 05:35
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Dark Water/Death in Heaven is really good except for the Cyberbrig thing. It has the usual two-parter drag (a lot of the President of the World stuff where they sit around in a plane discussing what's going on I could have done without), but it has some interesting sci-fi elements and the characters are just fun to watch. It occurs to me that (Black Mirror spoilers) the Nethersphere is essentially the same concept as San Junipero, just done with malicious intent by a sociopath. Part of what makes it work so well is that the elaborate, insanely delicate, centuries-long web that Missy sets up has absolutely no end goal, really. For once, Missy/the Master's convoluted, insane plan is revealed just to be a convoluted insane plan, that basically serves to do nothing but get the Doctor's attention. Finally, the Doctor has stopped being such a jerk. His response when Clara asks why he would help her when she has just betrayed him, his defeated admission when Danny asks him to turn off the inhibitor, all that really works, and I love the little talk he and Clara have in the cafe at the end.
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Aug 13, 2017 05:43
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It's more of an abortion reference than a metaphor really, isn't it. It's the old conservative white man equivalent of Dr Mysterio, where everything is a shout out to Superman but it doesn't correspond especially well or work on its own merits, and you can sort of see what it's going for but it's difficult to work out exactly how.
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Aug 13, 2017 05:44
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