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Didn't see this posted, apologies otherwise, from the AP article about today's Carmageddon driver (https://apnews.com/b8560c3ebaac4deb9043bb695f2eb1db)Driver's Mom posted:“I thought it had something to do with Trump. Trump’s not a white supremacist,” The ol' token black friend I'm obviously not racist ruse.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:55
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Ripoff posted:Honestly, they should be charged for it but with the Nazis I'm certain there will be a "check's in the mail" convo, and the college won't hear from them again. I mean, if they were smart enough to do this strategy, you'd think they'd be smart enough to demand the money up front. but lol who are we kidding
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Aug 13, 2017 07:56
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Ripoff posted:Honestly, they should be charged for it but with the Nazis I'm certain there will be a "check's in the mail" convo, and the college won't hear from them again. Does an alt-right not deserve the sweat of his own hatred? No, says the cat, it belongs to me.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:56
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repeating posted:Does a libertarian not deserve the sweat of his own hatred? The correct response to Andrew Ryan is the same as the correct response to Nazis: a 9-iron.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:56
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To this day I'm truly amazed this guy got both shoes off and airborne.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:57
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BIG HEADLINE posted:To this day I'm truly amazed this guy got both shoes off and airborne. I loving hate that W juked that shoe like a pro.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:59
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Prester Jane posted:Ahem. As someone who spent literally the past three years trying my damnedest to calmly explain the threat posed by these groups and their very real potential for violence (and eating no small amount of poo poo for doing so) let me just tell you that I have learned that normalcy bias is a motherfucker when it takes hold of groups. While there were those who were willing to listen there were also plenty of goon who went well out of their way to make it loving impossible to have a reasonable discussion about the topic. Hell, my thread was initially created in large part because certain posters had a conniption fit that I dared to suggest that the militias were a problem or that radical Christians were not going to simply roll over and make their peace with gay marriage. I remember scoffing at you, but I remember you handing me my rear end whenever you made a claim and I naysayed you. I would say nay and I would eat crow over and over again. You weren't always correct, but whenever I tried to correct you you were. So I started to listen. So. You know. Not all for nothing I guess.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:59
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BIG HEADLINE posted:To this day I'm truly amazed this guy got both shoes off and airborne. I fuckin' know right? This guy is a true role model for us all. 
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Aug 13, 2017 07:59
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Condiv posted:did they do anything for tosten? he had a much more important case, but for some reason the ACLU didn't come running to his defense.... Condiv posted:they're nazis Condiv posted:blm doesn't have anything near the hateful rhetoric of the KKK or nazis. either in protest form or otherwise. we'd know about it if they did, the right wing wouldn't let us hear otherwise Condiv posted:i think i made it very clear i don't like that the ACLU helped with kessler's suit, and that i don't like that the ACLUVA tweeted out pro-rightwing eyewitness accounts of leftists being mowed down by a car. why would i need to explicitly say "i don't like that they did this!"? can you not parse that? Condiv posted:uhh, i don't doubt the white supremacists would've won their case with or without the ACLU. cause they have a right to assemble enjoyed by few others in the united states. i have always taken issue with the ACLU choosing to defend that right even though they know it will likely lead to violence (and did in this case). apparently you do actually have trouble parsing my posts! You believe that preemptively restricting Kessler's rally would not have violated the ACLU's principles, based on their previous advocacy. This is not the case. You should actually read those as well, they're a great primer for the current state of 1A law in this country and written in plain English, differentiating the common usage of (for instance) "incitement" from the legal usage in this context. So we return to your posting. "i don't like that the ACLU helped with kessler's suit, and that i don't like that the ACLUVA tweeted out pro-rightwing eyewitness accounts of leftists being mowed down by a car." is great! It's a statement of your position that can lead towards an interesting discussion of 1A absolutism, alternate standards, and the potential misapplication of those standards in the future. Even better, it doesn't rely on any inaccuracies, falsehoods, or innuendos about a sinister affection towards racist fascists. It's a shame that the same cannot be said about your other posts on the topic. Coincidentally, I'm still waiting for the tweet or statement of support about ACLUVA sharing the misinformation.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:01
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repeating posted:I loving hate that W juked that shoe like a pro. And that if you look closely, he even has an expression of mirth on his face about it. I'm sure he's well-practiced from "42" throwing poo poo at him in his youth.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:02
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Condiv posted:i'd prefer that richard spencer not get to work his psychotic nazi friends into a murderous,violent rage again Advocating for the removal of constitutional rights from a group of people is not a principled anti-fascist stand.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:02
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muon posted:Advocating for the removal of constitutional rights from a group of people is not a principled anti-fascist stand. Oh gently caress off.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:03
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Amazing how we get a new wave of posters in this thread everytime there is some nazis to defend.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:05
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Guys have you considered that "police officers being killed at BLM protests don't count" might not be a useful way of looking at things? Like it or not there's been an upswing in political violence generally and today's attack is only one in a series of killings over the last few years.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:06
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Like for real one of the unambiguously good accomplishments America can lay claim to is that we helped defeat the Nazis, late arrival notwithstanding. You know how we defeated the Nazis? With bullets. But oh noes, these Nazis are American, better roll over and let them walk all over us, god forbid we infringe on their constitutional rights while they beat black people in the streets and parade around in Blackwater cosplay and chant white nationalist slogans.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:07
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socialsecurity posted:Amazing how we get a new wave of posters in this thread everytime there is some nazis to defend. Better than eating our own like we do when there's a slow news day. Besides, their tenbux helps keep the site alive.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:09
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean at this point anybody who expresses surprise at this poo poo or claims it isn't happening should have a copy of It Can't Happen Here thrown with great force at their face. I think it was only about 3 months ago that I was mocked for stating that the Proud Boys demonstrations would turn full Nazi within a few years if nothing happened to forcefully end them. A year and a half ago I was a nut for flatly stating that Trump would eventually incite his fascist base to violence. While I would be remiss to act is if there were not quite a few Goons willing to hear me out, there were also quite a few goons who seemed to make it their personal mission to harass me at every turn specifically over my warnings about radicalized right wing violence. It is very hard to crack through normalcy bias. I guess I'm just venting, today is an extremely bitter pill to swallow. I saw this poo poo coming from miles off and feel like I have been forced to watch a train smash into the country and culture I love/admire so much. I genuinely think that we as a people can overcome this, but we are only going to do that if we can have frank discussions about how pathological people think/function as well as being brutally honest about how easily/rapidly violence can erupt in radicalized groups. Trying my damnedest to communicate what I understand of the pathological (through the prism of my mental illness) has been a task that has been at times greatly exasperated by the harassment of overeducated shitbags who have insecure meltdowns when you suggest that their comfortable existence miiiiiiiight be at risk. And I have known from the very moment that Trump was elected how this would play out. I wrote the following in the hours after Trump was elected: Prester Jane posted:
The good news is that the aforementioned overeducated shitbags are exceedingly unpopular with pretty much the entire Left at this moment now and their voices are unlikely to gum up the conversations that need to happen now. Perhaps we might just be ready as a country for when Trump finally pulls the trigger and openly incites his radicalized base into targeted violence. Edit: Ice Phisherman posted:I remember scoffing at you, but I remember you handing me my rear end whenever you made a claim and I naysayed you. I would say nay and I would eat crow over and over again. You weren't always correct, but whenever I tried to correct you you were. So I started to listen. Thank you for this, I needed it more than you know tonight. I certainly am far from always being correct, but I try my damnedest to get it right and explain my perspective. Its good to hear that it made a difference. Thank you. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 08:09
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Lightning Knight posted:Like for real one of the unambiguously good accomplishments America can lay claim to is that we helped defeat the Nazis, late arrival notwithstanding. You know how we defeated the Nazis? With bullets.. Okay so what's the plan here? The far right definitely has more rifles than the far left. Best case scenario the police crack down hard and we know where their sympathies lie.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:09
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https://twitter.com/ChuckModi1/status/896409728959606789 https://twitter.com/felicia4217/status/896556066540048388 https://twitter.com/felicia4217/status/896581870313496577
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Aug 13, 2017 08:10
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I'll be perfectly honest and own up to not actually having read your thread or most of your writing because I found it particularly dense and impenetrable, but you were thoroughly right and all doubts I had about your basic thesis were dumb and bad. Arglebargle III posted:Okay so what's the plan here? The far right definitely has more rifles than the far left. Best case scenario the police crack down hard and we know where their sympathies lie. I feel like the second half of this post contrasts well against your previous post. You can't acknowledge that police broadly speaking are right-wing authoritarians who will throw their lot in the with the fascists and then ask why we aren't concerned about political violence against the police. That said, at a certain point it might be time to admit we need more guns.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:12
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Would you be umconcerned about kicking a bear because you felt it deserved a kicking?
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Aug 13, 2017 08:13
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Arglebargle III posted:Would you be umconcerned about kicking a bear because you felt it deserved a kicking? That's a fair point, and different than what I thought you had meant. i dunno. There's a strong institutional bias against the left in this scenario, especially since most people lack the means/will/stomach/resources to mount any kind of serious defense against fascism and liberals are tripping over themselves to condemn political violence and uphold the first amendment as the most important thing to ever exist. I hate to be defeatist but I think we all know how this one ends.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:16
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Paracaidas posted:It's hosed up that they didn't defend Toston! (though I've found very little about the background to the case so I can't speak to whether they denied him assistance, didn't proactively seek him out hard enough, or whatever else may have occurred) Regardless, congrats! You've proved that the ACLU is neither perfect nor infallible. Which I'd find devastating if I'd claimed that they were. Of course, that's still not enough to get us to your innuendos that for ~reasons~ they shed principles to support nazis. This is in part because you're out of your depth as it comes to actually understanding the issues involved. i've also proved that incitement to violence is being used like I said it could be, just abused against prisoners instead of being used to protect against actual threats like the KKK and nazis. i also showed that the ACLU does not take all first amendment cases, and therefore certainly did not need to take the slam dunk case involving nazis quote:I missed the "except when they're nazis, but only when they're nazis" clause. That sure makes this simple and tidy! how about under the incitement to violence clause that's already being used, but this time, using it appropriately against nazis instead of against prisoners who checked a book out of the prison library? this isn't hard paracaidas, you just make it hard. quote:http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/if-black-lives-matter-isnt-racist-hate-group-then--4610 Amazing how The Onion can pull such satire out of the ether. So that this isn't twisted back on me later I am not claiming, and have never claimed, that BLM is in any way analogous to the hatred, incitement, bigotry, or violence of the Klan or Nazis. I pointed to 4 events (with higher body counts than we've seen from all domestic Klan/Nazi rallies in the same time period) that would be used by conservative governments and institutions to preemptively shutdown and ban BLM rallies and related protests. As Toston proves, the courts tend to have a much lower bar in these situations. they have a lower bar than is just when it comes to black people, and a higher bar than is just when it comes to white people. i'm advocating for a realignment, where white asshats spouting violent rhetoric that we all know does breed violence get hit with incitement to violence instead of using it against black people that checked a book out of the library. quote:I parsed that fine. I also parsed where you impart more sinister motives on those decisions. But then, disagreeing without assuming the worst has never been your strong suit. nah, you didn't. cause i don't need to impart more sinister motives on those decisions. the aclu, through cluelessness and indifference to the reality of the nazis they supported, supported nazis. twice in one day. it wasn't a good day for them then they followed up that string of oopses with "we're sorry people died but we still think we did a good  ". no need to impart sinister motives there. the aclu being foolish tools of the right today is bad enough on its own.quote:Let me try being more explicit, then: no, i believe refusing to aid kessler would not have violated the ACLU's principles. full stop. quote:So we return to your posting."i don't like that the ACLU helped with kessler's suit, and that i don't like that the ACLUVA tweeted out pro-rightwing eyewitness accounts of leftists being mowed down by a car." is great! It's a statement of your position that can lead towards an interesting discussion of 1A absolutism, alternate standards, and the potential misapplication of those standards in the future. Even better, it doesn't rely on any inaccuracies, falsehoods, or innuendos about a sinister affection towards racist fascists. sorry, you pulled all those from vapor. maybe learn to read? you're some lawyer right? i'd assume that'd come in handy for your profession. quote:It's a shame that the same cannot be said about your other posts on the topic. Coincidentally, I'm still waiting for the tweet or statement of support about ACLUVA sharing the misinformation. you can't even handle this argument, introducing another one where you misinterpret and ignore everything doesn't sound like a good idea to me Condiv fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 08:17
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socialsecurity posted:Amazing how we get a new wave of posters in this thread everytime there is some nazis to defend. Nazis are extremely bad. They are also human, and as such, deserve 1st Amendment protection. This is not a defense of their speech or anything they endorse. It is a reminder that free speech is incredibly important to the health of any democratic endeavor and it is imperative that human rights remain inviolable. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 13, 2017 08:17
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muon posted:Nazis are extremely bad. They are also human, and as such, deserve 1st Amendment protection. This is not a defense of their speech or anything they endorse. It is a reminder that free speech is incredibly important to the health of any democratic endeavor and it is imperative that human rights remain inviolable. nah, actually germany has outlawed swastikas and they haven't become a drooling unthinking hivemind as a result
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Aug 13, 2017 08:20
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muon posted:Nazis are extremely bad. They are also human, and as such, deserve 1st Amendment protection. This is not a defense of their speech or anything they endorse. It is a reminder that free speech is incredibly important to the health of any democratic endeavor and it is imperative that human rights remain inviolable. I agree, FDR is the worst president in American history because he didn't respect the free speech rights of the Nazis, we should've left them alone to Wait. hm. HM. HMMMMMMMMM
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Aug 13, 2017 08:21
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Mr Interweb posted:That's the weirdest part of all this. If Trump made a stronger statement, his idiot supporters would just say "well, obviously he's saying that with a smirk and a wink and he's still totally RAHOWA!". Trump gets brownie points from the mainstream media like a toddler who learned to poo poo inside the potty for once, and he could continue to sow the seeds of further White supremacy behind the scenes. Because Trump is an obstinate, dumbass narcissist. There is no 4D chess here. It's just him being shallow and sticking with the base he knows will reliably fellate him. Don't hold him to the standards of actual competent leaders.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:22
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muon posted:Nazis are extremely bad. They are also human, and as such, deserve 1st Amendment protection. This is not a defense of their speech or anything they endorse. It is a reminder that free speech is incredibly important to the health of any democratic endeavor and it is imperative that human rights remain inviolable. Nah, Nazis deserve painful death and nothing else. Hth.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:23
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I'm fine with punching Nazis. I'm also fine with kicking them or whacking them with pointy sticks. I'm not fine with taking away their first amendment rights.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:23
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm fine with punching Nazis. I'm fine with both.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:24
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muon posted:Nazis are extremely bad. They are also human, and as such, deserve 1st Amendment protection. This is not a defense of their speech or anything they endorse. It is a reminder that free speech is incredibly important to the health of any democratic endeavor and it is imperative that human rights remain inviolable. Somehow many countries that don't have the absolute right to free speech are doing way better than america on the democracy front
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Aug 13, 2017 08:24
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muon posted:Please do not advocate for limiting other people's 1st Amendment rights. Thank you. By "everything in their power" I think it was clear I mean legally. No one's violating any constitution here, Matlock.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:24
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm fine with punching Nazis. https://twitter.com/marcushjohnson/status/896527250010648576 muh first amendment rights! 
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Aug 13, 2017 08:24
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muon posted:Nazis are extremely bad. They are also human, and as such, deserve 1st Amendment protection. This is not a defense of their speech or anything they endorse. It is a reminder that free speech is incredibly important to the health of any democratic endeavor and it is imperative that human rights remain inviolable. Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm fine with punching Nazis. no! Somebody fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 08:26
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RZA Encryption posted:I'm fine with both. Then get a constitutional amendment passed saying "the above text does not apply to Nazis".
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Aug 13, 2017 08:26
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the important thing to remember on this day when a protester at a rally for people who are into white supremacy and who regularly express the need to genocide minorities in order to preserve civilization drove their car into a bunch of people is that free speech is an ideal more valuable than people's lives.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:27
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ITT leftists argue for setting precedents limiting freedom of expression that will be used against them more than they ever will against Nazis.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:28
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:ITT leftists argue for setting precedents limiting freedom of expression that will be used against them more than they ever will against Nazis. I mean if institutionally the country will always be biased against leftists regardless, there's no reason to not advocate for doing the same to the far right.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:28
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:ITT leftists argue for setting precedents limiting freedom of expression that will be used against them more than they ever will against Nazis. How about all the countries that limit freedom of expression and are doing fine?
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Aug 13, 2017 08:29
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Then get a constitutional amendment passed saying "the above text does not apply to Nazis". it already doesn't apply to people who, say, passed out pamphlets saying not to fight in WWI. of course nazis are more often in the service of the american state than against it so I could see where the line could be drawn
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Aug 13, 2017 08:29
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