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https://twitter.com/jerrysaltz/status/896754042663206912
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Aug 13, 2017 17:10
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Rigel posted:I strongly encourage Nazis to proudly wear their swastikas in public. Makes it much easier for police (and employers) to keep an eye on them. It also makes it easier for them to proselytize, recruit, intimidate and signal to their own. I'm not sure why you don't see these as negative consequences.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:11
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:The German model. For many years many legal scholars have argued that similar laws were not needed in the US because of our extremely thorough tradition of democracy - but I wonder. This is sort of where I'm at - I'm on board with the German model precisely because it's a somewhat tricky and fairly sensible bar to meet. Unfortunately, a chunk of the alt-right shithead coalition isn't quite stupid enough to be literal Nazis. I can't say I'm delighted that "don't be a literal Nazi, hide behind weasel words and pretend you respect the rule of law" is a rule that a nontrivial number of people are violating in 2017 America. 
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Aug 13, 2017 17:11
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They forgot to add "convicted felon".
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Aug 13, 2017 17:12
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actionjackson posted:I just think it's important to think about unintended consequences. Not sure why this is problematic. I mean if you had such a law here (for example created under a liberal administration), and then the pendulum swung the other way and the far right was back in power, it would be an absolute disaster as they could use the law to forbid all sorts of left-wing protest, mislabeling antifa, BLM, etc. as "hate groups." So in essence you believe you cannot in good conscience create a law to ban xyz bad things because if the bad guys got ahold of it they would use it to ban xyz good things? My man have you ever looked at totalitarian leadership, like the og Nazis, and got the impression that they give a poo poo about pretext. They will do as they please regardless and the don't give a poo poo to coat it subtly anymore either after the dam has completly broken (like the classic "Reichs Gypsy Law", "Reichs Jew Laws", or the mouthful of "Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor" aka the Blood Protection Laws.)? If you put a law on the book that outlaws the swastika there won't be a future president amending it to the "no swastikas and also no lgbt rainbow flags" law but they will just can that thing entirely and create the "No Faggots allowed" law, in so many words. The road to hell is paved with being scared of slippery slopes.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:13
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This is my poo poo.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:13
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Pembroke Fuse posted:It also makes it easier for them to proselytize, recruit, intimidate and signal to their own. I'm not sure why you don't see these as negative consequences. I'm not scared of literal swastika-wearing Nazis rising to power and taking over in America. I'm more concerned about an underground racist movement looking reasonable to ignorant uninformed voters, pushing poo poo like birther conspiracies, and quietly taking over a major political party. If racist shits are allowed to be out in the open nazis, they can be marginalized.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:14
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Casey Finnigan posted:I think some of the dumber ones actually believe the poo poo they spew, and a lot of the "smarter" ones kind of half-believe it, like they realize it's all bullshit but they hate the Jews or blacks anyway so they'll let the idea they're globalist overlords or violent brutal protesting criminals or whatever stew in the back of their minds. Alex Jones is dumb as hell, for example, and basically spews anti-Semitic poo poo nonstop but it seems like he kinda does actually think the Jewish mafia runs the NWO or whatever. I think these people surround themselves with so much bullshit that even their dumb logically inconsistent views become earnestly held Yeah, I don't think they necessarily buy into the Jews run the world thing to the last man. Most of them know, on some level, that it's not true, but they keep it around with the rest of their "knowledge" of things as a kind of coping salve made from bullshit. Any time they need to patch up some cognitive dissonance they just bust out the bullshit. The more bullshit they get fed from their head honchos, the more dissonance you can toss at them. Their end game is the heat death of knowledge where all logical relationships between data points just evaporates. I also think there's a bunch of them just thinking, "Of course the Jews don't run the world because that would make me inferior to them. Impossible." Probably think they're brilliant when they make that mental leap of faith.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:14
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So when I asked last night if free speech allowed for treason I was attempting to be Socratic and point out there was no need for laws as they exist to be changed. The problem seems to be that people can't wrap their head around that there is no difference between white nationalists and ISIS calling for American genocide. To be blunt, the only difference here is the color of the skin of people calling for it. I say this from the perspective that non citizens should be protected by the constitution as well. It's a cultural and societal problem and step one is, "No, infact, no Nazis, ever."
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Aug 13, 2017 17:14
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"WE WILL STAND UP FOR WHITES, WE WILL STAND UP FOR RIGHTS, AND WE WILL NEVER BACK DO- oh poo poo are those consequences?! everyone run and hide!!!" https://twitter.com/ShaneGoldmacher/status/896733938663776257 loving skinwalkers who inhabit our dreams and make us attend racist rallies and say racist things against our will https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJRxkAOIv9E&t=59s
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Aug 13, 2017 17:14
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Count Roland posted:Anyone have reading suggestions here? Links or books or movies or anything. I'm really curious about how these went in the past, what I might learn about whats going on now from them. From way back: axeil posted:Well poo poo. Count Roland posted:Thanks. I'm broadly familiar with how the nazis came to power. Do you know about any of these street battles? Sometimes they can get big enough that they collect their own history/mythology around them. Or the assassinations for that matter. I bought a book on fascism a while ago looking for this sorta thing but was sorely disappointed. Most history (rightfully) focuses on the big political movers and shakers, rather than the rif raf clubbing each other on the streets. The book focuses only on the hyper-local stuff and charts things like how many communist/nazi street battles occurred, what the cops did, what the SPD/Nazis/Communists/Centrists did in response, etc. It's a really good book. Honestly I've been thinking of starting a thread in D&D that can serve as a book club for this book and other "how to defeat Nazis" type books. Is there any interest in that? axeil fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 17:14
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I have been on flights the past few days and just saw the news and the thread again. I'm genuinely on the verge of breaking down and crying right on my family vacation. There is something viscerally terrifying about this situations : as a society, we agreed that Nazis are the Bad People. No matter what, they were the free space to insult. Today, we're excusing their behavior and normalizing with false equivalence. I saw a black mother with the most adorable little girl in the airport and I wonder what she was thinking. What dread? How do you raise a kid in this? Nazis were the one thing that scared me the most because the evil was real.... and now the reality is here.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:15
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Hastings posted:I have been on flights the past few days and just saw the news and the thread again. I'm genuinely on the verge of breaking down and crying right on my family vacation. There is something viscerally terrifying about this situations : as a society, we agreed that Nazis are the Bad People. No matter what, they were the free space to insult. Today, we're excusing their behavior and normalizing with false equivalence. I saw a black mother with the most adorable little girl in the airport and I wonder what she was thinking. What dread? How do you raise a kid in this? Nazis were the one thing that scared me the most because the evil was real.... and now the reality is here. hey if it makes you feel any better nazi rallies pop up in the us from time to time, a few times in the last decade, and they're getting way more pushback now than they did like 10 years ago so try not to convince yourself everything is hopeless here's some news coverage from the last notable riot at a white power rally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYef0oSlYnM
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Aug 13, 2017 17:16
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Omg this tom bossert/jake tapper interview is the worst. "BOTH SIDES BOTH SIDES, no im not a nazi apologist"
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Aug 13, 2017 17:18
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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/896765549161709568
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Aug 13, 2017 17:20
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az posted:So in essence you believe you cannot in good conscience create a law to ban xyz bad things because if the bad guys got ahold of it they would use it to ban xyz good things? It's not about the Nazis caring about pretext, it's about the courts doing so.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:20
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Yeah there's both side to nazis. I'm on the side with Audie Murphy.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:20
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DaveWoo posted:Similarly, the Wall Street Journal also came out with an embarrassing editorial this weekend about how liberals are obsessed with identity politics. Reminder that "identity politics" is the pejorative form of "civil rights." When Bob is getting mad at identity politics, know that no matter which way you slice it, Bob is upset with the idea that someone might be treated as someone else's equal. Don't be Bob.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:21
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"Please don't attack our President, who clearly does not want denounce white supremacy groups after a clear cut showing of hatred and killing by a supremacist. In the meantime, we will attack you for attacking us on these values, please be nice to our President too."
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Aug 13, 2017 17:22
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One of the Post's token Republicans woke up spitting fire at Trump https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...m=.2faa0f7f11a4
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Aug 13, 2017 17:24
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The American president doesn't represent America in both a litteral democratic or aspirational sense so to hell with anyone hang wringing about decorum.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:24
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DaveWoo posted:The events of yesterday have proven that Kelly is absolutely worthless; he's either unable or unwilling to control Trump's worst instincts. He's been very clear that he doesn't give a flying gently caress about trying to control Trump. Which is why he's still trucking instead of getting the Mooch treatment. It is his view that the real problem with the Administration is the lack of hierarchical discipline, and he knows that trying to control Trump is the sure fire way to be out. And if he's out, how is he going to help bring about horrifically bad policy on our nation? His goal is to simply impose order on the chaos of the Trump administration and make it so random idiots don't suddenly get Trump off on a tangent about who the gently caress knows. That's the roll of select idiots. Consequently, the real hope for getting rid of him and replacing him with another useless shitbag like Reince is the media praising how Presidential Trump is acting thanks to the power of Kelly. We won't be getting that headline for a while.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:26
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Rigel posted:I'm not scared of literal swastika-wearing Nazis rising to power and taking over in America. I'm more concerned about an underground racist movement looking reasonable to ignorant uninformed voters, pushing poo poo like birther conspiracies, and quietly taking over a major political party. Do you honestly think they can't do both? Nazis being out in the open normalizes Nazis being out in the open.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:26
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Casey Finnigan posted:I think some of the dumber ones actually believe the poo poo they spew, and a lot of the "smarter" ones kind of half-believe it, like they realize it's all bullshit but they hate the Jews or blacks anyway so they'll let the idea they're globalist overlords or violent brutal protesting criminals or whatever stew in the back of their minds. Alex Jones is dumb as hell, for example, and basically spews anti-Semitic poo poo nonstop but it seems like he kinda does actually think the Jewish mafia runs the NWO or whatever. I think these people surround themselves with so much bullshit that even their dumb logically inconsistent views become earnestly held Whoo, this inspired me to an insight that is pretentious as all hell, so I must share it with the forum. That "realize it's all bullshit but let it stew and kind of half-believe it" you're talking about is a hallmark of narcissistic personality defense - which you can read a breakdown of in this awesome blog post. In this kind of personality defense, you maintain your sense of self and self-superiority by maintaining contradictory viewpoints and shifting between them as the circumstance fits - as described at the end of the blog post, the libertarian who believes that his existence and importance is completely independent of government action yet still assumes that the government will protect him from others' actions/misactions/his own mistakes. I would posit that this is especially true of fascist ideology, as denoted by  in the whole "we are simultaneously incredible weak and yet also unstoppable" part, and I would further posit that it's because attachment to fascist ideology is, for most fascists, a part of their personality defense. Fascists tend to be those who are struggling with thinking of themselves as on the losing side, and being part of a fascist movement is a way to push forward a personality defense: it isn't that I have to improve myself; it's that others are holding me down and kicking me out and they must pay. In that sense, the natural contradictory premises of fascism - Jews are simultaneously powerful yet weak; whites are simultaneously oppressed while naturally superior - lend themselves to pulling out whichever is necessary for one's own ego. Nazis don't believe what they say because it doesn't matter what they believe; what matters is that they have an excuse to continue to be the awful people they are by deflecting the criticism to others - by being both oppressed by Jews/blacks/women and simultaneously superior to Jews/blacks/women they can pull whatever statement they need in order to salve their egos.Okay, I need to towel down after that.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:27
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axeil posted:From way back: Appreciated! By asking other people and going through wiki, I've found some other examples of anti-fascist street battles, which I'll link to for anyone interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stockton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_February_1934_crisis
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Aug 13, 2017 17:27
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DaveWoo posted:The events of yesterday have proven that Kelly is absolutely worthless; he's either unable or unwilling to control Trump's worst instincts. Kelly is himself a Narrativist and in all probability is simply acting on whatever his personal Inner narrative dictates. Kelly was never interested in actually controlling Trump.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:27
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After yesterday, me and my wife talked with our 10 and 12 year old boys about what happened yesterday, how people can start believing Nazi bullshit, and how to be smart and not fall into those traps. If you've got kids, please talk with them about this. We showed them an old post WWII public service film about being suckered into believing Nazi propaganda. It's old, but it's still on the nose and relevant to what's going on today. We told them how it's not necessarily going to be some guy on a street corner, like in the video, but it could be some Let's Player on YouTube or one of their friends. They might find themselves at a low point in their lives and want someone to blame, and somebody they trust or respect will tell them it's ok to blame black people, Mexicans, Jews, etc. Kids these days have to be aware of this poo poo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K6-cEAJZlE volts5000 fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 17:28
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here's a little something for the people who were saying blm protests were violent too https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/896464898795950081 https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/896467202081259522 we can refuse to defend nazi speech because their rhetoric is clearly violent
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Aug 13, 2017 17:29
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RuanGacho posted:It's a cultural and societal problem and step one is, "No, infact, no Nazis, ever." I agree with you, but unless you want to get into thoughtcrime Minority Report level policing this is really just a nice sentiment. I know that even by making their ideology illegal somehow they could still change their methods and modes of communication, redesign their look, and "cover" their nature in public if they wanted to put in that much effort. Or they could hide that part of themselves away, locked in a trunk in their closet or something. Since most Americans are super lazy in my mind I figured that they'd take the low road and just hide themselves. In this sense, the law forces them into hiding even if they still have terrible views. If we try to rely on society at large and our overall culture to inform us about how bad Nazis are we'll end up right back where we are at this very moment. They're very much trying to weaken our collective disgust and resistance to their presence back in open society and I'm worried they might be able to pull it off.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:29
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boner confessor posted:hey if it makes you feel any better nazi rallies pop up in the us from time to time, a few times in the last decade, and they're getting way more pushback now than they did like 10 years ago so try not to convince yourself everything is hopeless I really appreciate you and the forum, because living in IL, racism is deafening. I have worked with only black babies for many years, so they have a special place in my heart. I see the future and it scares me.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:29
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Pembroke Fuse posted:Do you honestly think they can't do both? Nazis being out in the open normalizes Nazis being out in the open. I just don't get what a law saying "swastikas are illegal" accomplishes other than encouraging racists to make their poo poo more reasonable and palatable. I'm not criticizing Germany, I can understand the tremendous shame and rage that can occur from being led to utter defeat and the generations of climbing out of that hole. If we were in their shoes, we'd want a ban too out of pride and revenge if nothing else. But we're not in their shoes. I'm not scared of symbols, and I prefer my racists to proudly identify themselves in ways that ignorant voters can't ignore.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:30
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Hastings posted:I have been on flights the past few days and just saw the news and the thread again. I'm genuinely on the verge of breaking down and crying right on my family vacation. There is something viscerally terrifying about this situations : as a society, we agreed that Nazis are the Bad People. No matter what, they were the free space to insult. Today, we're excusing their behavior and normalizing with false equivalence. I saw a black mother with the most adorable little girl in the airport and I wonder what she was thinking. What dread? How do you raise a kid in this? Nazis were the one thing that scared me the most because the evil was real.... and now the reality is here. Get armed, get organized, join an antifa/DSA group or form one and talk to your friends, family and neighbours to make sure they understand that this is not ok. I know it's not much, but it's the best we have right now.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:31
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az posted:So in essence you believe you cannot in good conscience create a law to ban xyz bad things because if the bad guys got ahold of it they would use it to ban xyz good things? I'm not even necessarily against the idea of such a law, I just pointed out some things to consider.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:31
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I am very glad someone edited that old military poster into this. For context: 
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Aug 13, 2017 17:32
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hey thread, here's some feel-good poo poo for you all, lord knows we can all use it. https://twitter.com/blowticious/status/896744270002094084
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Aug 13, 2017 17:32
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Spiritus Nox posted:It's not about the Nazis caring about pretext, it's about the courts doing so. If SCOTUS ran a law banning swastikas through and instead of just striking it down for *reasons* actually amended it to include the hypothethical LGBT flag, or other symbol of choice, you already have Roland Freisler on the bench and are already falling off a cliff. Better not pass any laws ever, agrees everyone.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:32
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botany posted:hey thread, here's some feel-good poo poo for you all, lord knows we can all use it. He didn't connect very well but I'm sure he still rocked the poo poo out of that soft lil bitch so doubleplusgood work all round
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Aug 13, 2017 17:37
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Red Baron posted:I agree with you, but unless you want to get into thoughtcrime Minority Report level policing this is really just a nice sentiment. I know that even by making their ideology illegal somehow they could still change their methods and modes of communication, redesign their look, and "cover" their nature in public if they wanted to put in that much effort. Or they could hide that part of themselves away, locked in a trunk in their closet or something. You dont agree with me because you don't get it yet.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:37
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I'm totally convinced 90% of people who use "thought crime" have no idea what that means.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:39
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RuanGacho posted:You dont agree with me because you don't get it yet. Alright then. e. I meant literal telepathy/precognition like in the movie, sorry if that's the wrong word. As in, actually policing the thoughts of people. It's obviously impossible in the context of the movie, I guess you could just terrorize your populace to brute force it a bit.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:39
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