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actionjackson posted:I'm not even necessarily against the idea of such a law, I just pointed out some things to consider. But what is there to consider anymore. Do something, anything, to restrain the use of hatespeech and glorification of people and organisations that held the destruction of who they considered to be subhuman as their ultimate achievement. Debate how to, figure it out, campaign for it, stand for something. Or do nothing because it's too hard and ??? Those are your options, do something, do nothing, pretend to think about doing something and then go home because poo poo is too complicated (this is where we are right now). I really don't know what there could possibly be to this collective dragging of feet anymore.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:41
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mdemone posted:These arguments are not reversible. One is morally correct and the other is not. Moral relativism is a thing.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:41
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Koalas March posted:I'm totally convinced 90% of people who use "thought crime" have no idea what that means. It's why you don't make eye contact with suspicious urban types, they might thought crime you
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Aug 13, 2017 17:41
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Moral relativism is a thing. Only if you are a gigantic idiot and/or a nazi
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Aug 13, 2017 17:42
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Red Baron posted:Alright then. Getting colder, hint its not in sci fi. I say this with no malice, you are spinning further away from the truth and my point.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:42
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Germany's laws about when the swastika is allowed to be displayed are an actual real life example of how it can happen without some horrible slippery slope.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:42
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Koalas March posted:I'm totally convinced 90% of people who use "thought crime" have no idea what that means. there's also the flawed reasoning of "if we do X to fascists, they'll do X to us so lets not do X no matter how moral it might be!" as if fascists won't do whatever they please when they get power. as if fascists give a poo poo about the kindness or understanding people show them and will ever reciprocate
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Aug 13, 2017 17:42
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https://mobile.twitter.com/joshtpm/status/896773162821709824
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Aug 13, 2017 17:43
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Koalas March posted:Seriously. The next time you feel conflicted about Nazis google 'holocaust' images. The next time you feel conflicted about racists in america and the KKK google lynchings. If you find yourself being conflicted about hate speech and bathroom bills google crime scene photos of any number of victims of senseless violence. omg but did you read Hillbilly Elegy?
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Aug 13, 2017 17:43
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where will Trump get his next wife, then?
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Aug 13, 2017 17:43
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https://twitter.com/RyanLizza/status/896710896789204993 https://twitter.com/TheTweetOfGod/status/896774300992126976
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Aug 13, 2017 17:44
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In the entire history of the earth, going back thru the age of empires, the new world conquest, the medieval period, the roman empire, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, at any time between now and 5000 BC, has any nation or empire or tribe ever allowed a defeated enemy to peacefully come in and fly their flag and advocate for their lost cause? I mean goddamn. Next we need some Brits to come over and march for a return to the crown.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:44
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http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/08/13/tom-bossert-full-interview-sotu.cnn Tapper just gave him a softball and they can't even denouce White supremacy.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:45
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Condiv posted:we can refuse to defend nazi speech because their rhetoric is clearly violent I think we disagree a lot, but on this, we agree. I'm going to keep donating to the ACLU because I think they do significantly more good than harm on balance, but ultimately I think they hosed up in not recognizing the violence inherent in the aims of the #unitetheright group. It was a myopic decision to support them here and I hope they'll take a closer look at who they're defending the next time a right-wing group wants to march with torches.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:45
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:In the entire history of the earth, going back thru the age of empires, the new world conquest, the medieval period, the roman empire, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, at any time between now and 5000 BC, has any nation or empire or tribe ever allowed a defeated enemy to peacefully come in and fly their flag and advocate for their lost cause? Germany, 1920s and 30s.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:45
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volts5000 posted:After yesterday, me and my wife talked with our 10 and 12 year old boys about what happened yesterday, how people can start believing Nazi bullshit, and how to be smart and not fall into those traps. If you've got kids, please talk with them about this. We showed them an old post WWII public service film about being suckered into believing Nazi propaganda. It's old, but it's still on the nose and relevant to what's going on today. We told them how it's not necessarily going to be some guy on a street corner, like in the video, but it could be some Let's Player on YouTube or one of their friends. They might find themselves at a low point in their lives and want someone to blame, and somebody they trust or respect will tell them it's ok to blame black people, Mexicans, Jews, etc. Kids these days have to be aware of this poo poo. Pro Click.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:45
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:Next we need some Brits to come over and march for a return to the crown. That would be fun.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:45
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Rigel posted:That would be fun. Sounds like a stunt for Sacha Baron Cohen.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:47
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muon posted:Nazis are extremely bad. They are also human, and as such, deserve 1st Amendment protection. This is not a defense of their speech or anything they endorse. It is a reminder that free speech is incredibly important to the health of any democratic endeavor and it is imperative that human rights remain inviolable. Imagine how civilized we could be!
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Aug 13, 2017 17:48
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no easy way t osay this: if you got kids, sit em down today and have a tough talk about that frog. you know the one
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Aug 13, 2017 17:48
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Arrgytehpirate posted:Moral relativism is a thing. No, it isn't.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:49
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coyo7e posted:You know at this point I'm starting to be all for free speech but you can't have freedom of speech when you are around others who do not want to hear it. If you have terrible opinions and you have a need to voice them then I don't see any reason with being kicked out of establishments, removed from City Limits, you know taken out of public spaces in general. I think that's awesome you have strong convictions but I don't care if you're an armed militiamen "who is there to 'keep the peace (whatever that means to him)", or who you are, you're just no longer welcome here, you can go play in the woods but leave your toys and bad opinions at the door like your dirty boots. That would effectively ban protests altogether. Doesn't matter if you are a nazi, an atheist, or a boring ordinary democrat, someone doesn't want to hear you speak and will complain to the city. The answer usually is "don't go to the protest".
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Aug 13, 2017 17:50
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coyo7e posted:You know at this point I'm starting to be all for free speech but you can't have freedom of speech when you are around others who do not want to hear it. If you have terrible opinions and you have a need to voice them then I don't see any reason with being kicked out of establishments, removed from City Limits, you know taken out of public spaces in general. I think that's awesome you have strong convictions but I don't care if you're an armed militiamen "who is there to 'keep the peace (whatever that means to him)", or who you are, you're just no longer welcome here, you can go play in the woods but leave your toys and bad opinions at the door like your dirty boots. It doesn't matter if people dislike your free speech, what matters is the intent or result of your free speech. Words no one hears are words not spoken at all.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:50
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Cythereal posted:Germany, 1920s and 30s. This doesnt' make sense, what defeated enemy did Germany allow to preach in the 1920s? Britian and France won WW1, Germany had no choice but to listen to them.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:50
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Rigel posted:I just don't get what a law saying "swastikas are illegal" accomplishes other than encouraging racists to make their poo poo more reasonable and palatable. Forcing people to adhere to basic social norms, even if they end up trying to subvert them, is better than people openly and boldly parading and normalizing their hatred. In fact, having basic social norms like "swastikas are illegal" is a good start, because it sets a baseline for what should be publicly acceptable discourse.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:51
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Red Baron posted:Look for the ((( ))) when they speak.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:51
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coyo7e posted:Or if they like to use air quotes (virtually or textually) around actual "dictionary words". I seem to only see conservatives do this for the most part. It's also an old person Facebook stand in for underlining or otherwise emphasizing.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:53
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:This doesnt' make sense, what defeated enemy did Germany allow to preach in the 1920s? Britian and France won WW1, Germany had no choice but to listen to them. The German military establishment that negotiated Germany's surrender, then promptly turned around and convinced much of German society that it wasn't the right-wing military establishment that had failed Germany, it was internal traitors in Germany that failed them and made them all lose - especially Jews. Called the stab in the back myth.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:53
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I'm all for beating Nazis with large metal wrenches
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Aug 13, 2017 17:54
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Pembroke Fuse posted:Forcing people to adhere to basic social norms, even if they end up trying to subvert them, is better than people openly and boldly parading and normalizing their hatred. In fact, having basic social norms like "swastikas are illegal" is a good start, because it sets a baseline for what should be publicly acceptable discourse. I know several people who otherwise would criticize and ignore protests (saying something like "more people without jobs complaining, who cares, whats on TV") who were stunned into re-evaluating the right when they saw the swastikas being paraded down the street. They hurt the racists more than they hurt us.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:55
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Harrow posted:I think we disagree a lot, but on this, we agree. The ACLU's work on behalf of immigrants being illegally detained and deported has been invaluable, bad decisions about 1stAm aside.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:56
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Germany also outlawed the communist party and its symbol the hammer & sicle, so maybe you can use that as an argument to make the German model more attractive to the US? 
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Aug 13, 2017 17:57
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coyo7e posted:Or if they like to use air quotes (virtually or textually) around actual "dictionary words". I seem to only see conservatives do this for the most part. That's not true. i.e. The right's idea of 'tolerance' is that it necessitates tolerating intolerance, it doesn't. That's not what actual tolerance is. Air quotes around dictionary words are good whenever there is an individual or group misusing them, particularly if that misuse is what elevates their point from outright incorrect to merely specious. Notice how those air quotes weren't to question the idea of tolerance in general. Quorum posted:It's also an old person Facebook stand in for underlining or otherwise emphasizing. Also, this.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:58
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Rigel posted:I know several people who otherwise would criticize and ignore protests (saying something like "more people without jobs complaining, who cares, whats on TV") who were stunned into re-evaluating the right when they saw the swastikas being paraded down the street. How does this compare to the number of people who looked at that parade, got a hate boner and signed up for the next one? Anecdotal evidence aside, we know that Nazi parades in Germany captivated the public and created a sense that the Nazi party was this indestructible machine. e: it would be great if this parade really caused more revulsion in the general public than adulation, but the historic evidence isn't completely on that side here. I think you need to show your work here.
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Aug 13, 2017 17:58
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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/896777633702268928
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Aug 13, 2017 18:00
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RuanGacho posted:Getting colder, hint its not in sci fi. I say this with no malice, you are spinning further away from the truth and my point. The first amendment's freedom of speech bits do not protect you from being charged with the crime of treason. So you're saying we just label them terrorists, because objectively that's what they are. Thus no laws need to change and problem is solved.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:00
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Pembroke Fuse posted:How does this compare to the number of people who looked at that parade, got a hate boner and signed up for the next one? Anecdotal evidence aside, we know that Nazi parades in Germany captivated the public and created a sense that the Nazi party was this indestructible machine. If they lose their jobs every time they do it, that will end quickly. Red Baron posted:The first amendment's freedom of speech bits do not protect you from being charged with the crime of treason. So you're saying we just label them terrorists, because objectively that's what they are. Thus no laws need to change and problem is solved. Correct, and what's the difference between Neo-Nazis and ISIS?
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Aug 13, 2017 18:00
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Pembroke Fuse posted:How does this compare to the number of people who looked at that parade, got a hate boner and signed up for the next one? Anecdotal evidence aside, we know that Nazi parades in Germany captivated the public and created a sense that the Nazi party was this indestructible machine. It compares extremely well. If you think the swastika will lead to millions of people flocking to their banner, you are crazy.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:01
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https://twitter.com/the_ironsheik/status/896572215189229568 The Iron Sheik is here to clean up this town. Now get him a fat rail of coke and some adult diapers.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:01
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Which he had held until yesterday?
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Aug 13, 2017 18:01
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