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Deteriorata posted:Nah, this is pretty small potatoes, overall. What it does is give more freedom to turn on him within the Republican party if and when the time comes. Sorry, that was kinda what I was asking. I don't think that you can impeach a president for the actions of a handful of citizens. But I guess I should have made it more clear that even the most hardline Republican politicians can't ignore Trump's influence on the rallies, and that might cause some allies-of-convenience to turn against him. Which when it builds up with further blunders and negative press, might cause him to be unpopular enough to create the right conditions for an impeachment to be possible rather than unlikely (if the FBI investigations lead to illegal activities of course). Edit: page snipe
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Aug 13, 2017 21:54
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So I'm working on a post to elaborate more and I should have that post up by tomorrow, but I am concerned that yesterdays rally in conjunction with Trump's clear signaling to white supremacists is serving as something of a trigger point for a massive R.N.C.E. I have written in the past about the idea of a "Great Upwelling"(term borrowed from a Goon whose name I've unfortunately forgotten), or the belief among high-compaction Narrativists that they are on the verge of a massive popular uprising against their oppressors. The higher Compaction a Narrativist becomes the more imminent the Great Upwelling feels. You can think of the Great Upwelling as a psychological trigger point in which a high-compaction Narrativist begins to aggressively assert their Inner narrative. And by aggressively, I mean violently. Think of the Great Upwelling as a sort of theme to an Inner narrative- a very violent theme. If the Great Upwelling is at hand then it is time for the Elect to start killing as many of the Enemy as possible and asserting the dominance of the God-Force. In my days as a high-compaction Narrativist my groups Inner narrative revolved around a trigger point for the Great Upwelling that we labaled "The falling of the Veil". We believed we were angelkin who would literally and suddenly sprout literal angel wings and gain DBS powers when the veil between worlds fell. Our expectations were that our powers would grow slowly but society would destabilize quickly so we had enormously elaborate plans on what local buildings to seize control of and how to survive, where to raid for food/weapons. (Honestly, these "plans"often amounted to little more than elaborate group revenge fatansies wherein we would rule over a tiny group of survivors that just happened to include people we all mutually hated becoming forced labor). Thankfully in my case the trigger point for our adoption of the Great Upwelling was so bizarre (angel wings emerging out of our backs just as the demon invasion began) that we never believed the Great Upwelling was playing out. I am seeing some strong indications at present that at the very least the Racist Cluster is seeing this situation as a trigger for a collective adoption of the idea of the Great Upwelling happening right now, and that is concerning. While the rally yesterday would not have been enough in and of itself to trigger the Racist Cluster's collective adoption of the Great Upwelling- however Trump's clear signaling to them yesterday has given white supremacists what they are interpreting as a green light to start asserting their Inner narrative violently. Calls for violence and declarations that the "time has come to rise up and fight" are all over The_Donald, Breitbart, Stormfront, and 4chan. The concern here is that with the ongoing investigation into Trump it is conceivable that if the Racist Cluster begins to adopt the Great Upwelling then Mueller's probe could serve as enough fo a source of Narrative dysphoria to drive other Clusters into adopting it as well- at which point we will find out just exactly how many high-compaction Narrativists there are and what a godawful mess a disorganized bunch of terrorists can make of things.
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Aug 13, 2017 22:37
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Did you see this post from /pol/ that explicitly, directly describes white nationalists trying to keep their inner narrative hidden and tailor their outer? Because I immediately thought of this thread. https://twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/896823834338263041
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Aug 14, 2017 00:23
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What does one call it if the compaction is low but the inner narrative matches the outer? Such as where the left is trending right now in response to Charlottesville.
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Aug 14, 2017 02:59
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Ice Phisherman posted:What does one call it if the compaction is low but the inner narrative matches the outer? Such as where the left is trending right now in response to Charlottesville. That doesn't sound like you're describing a thing. If there is minimal exclusion of moderate voices and no dissonance of beliefs, I think that's just "being normal".
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Aug 14, 2017 03:01
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OwlFancier posted:That doesn't sound like you're describing a thing. If there is minimal exclusion of moderate voices and no dissonance of beliefs, I think that's just "being normal". I mean the more I think about it the more that I think that it's a national narrative. A narrative that won out. One that's so accepted that it's now ultra low compaction, the inner and outer narrative are the same, but still exists and we can dust it off if we need it. A sort of national, American narrative. Because if it didn't exist we'd be dealing with these people without being forewarned or forearmed. So when you say it's normal, I agree, but once upon a time it wasn't. It's a narrative so deeply internalized that we don't even think about it until we need it, but if we didn't believe in it the reaction to Charlottesville wouldn't be like it was. White people in this country rarely get called terrorists after all. In fact when they obviously are using terrorist tactics to evoke political change the right wingers won't do it. But now? Even arch conservatives are calling the car attacker a white supremacist terrorist. So I mean...What is it called in the framework? A narrative that won out in the culture wars? An idea that's so settled that it's barely even questioned?
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Aug 14, 2017 03:08
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I guess I'd have to know what exactly you're describing because while there's some issues with the word "terrorist" as applied to anything it's not the most inaccurate way to describe people who drive cars into crowds? You can argue that the only reason the republicans are doing it is because they think it's now in their interest to distance themselves from it but that seems more like just general politics, people try to position themselves in a way they think will be advantageous or in accordance with their ideological beliefs. Like humans are somewhat narratively inclined beings but not everything is just a story. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 03:11
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OwlFancier posted:I guess I'd have to know what exactly you're describing because while there's some issues with the word "terrorist" as applied to anything it's not the most inaccurate way to describe people who drive cars into crowds? You can argue that the only reason the republicans are doing it is because they think it's now in their interest to distance themselves from it but that seems more like just general politics, people try to position themselves in a way they think will be advantageous or in accordance with their ideological beliefs. Especially since when Muslims in Europe drive vehicles into crowds, people don't hesitate to call that terrorism, once it's determined it wasn't some horrible accident.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:27
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fishmech posted:Especially since when Muslims in Europe drive vehicles into crowds, people don't hesitate to call that terrorism, once it's determined it wasn't some horrible accident. I mean depending on which paper you read you could argue that it is assumed that a Muslim did it and it was terrorism and it is later sometimes discovered that it was either an accident or the drive wasn't a muslim at which point it ceases to be terrorism.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:31
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https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/896889781661061120
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Aug 14, 2017 06:38
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Ice Phisherman posted:So I mean...What is it called in the framework? A narrative that won out in the culture wars? An idea that's so settled that it's barely even questioned? You're overthinking it. Republicans are trying to save the furniture, their party is being tainted in the public mind with this, and they have to disavow the lunatic fringe that has taken over right-wing politics. If there is a narrative in there it's the moderate liberal narrative of 'we don't do that any more', but coming from Republicans it's a measure of how crazy things have gotten that they have to resort to that kind of appeal.
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Aug 14, 2017 15:05
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The next big rewrite of the Narrativist Framework (Which is at least 6+ months off at this point, I am focusing mostly on getting my podcast launched) is going to include tons of multi-media examples for each concept, and I feel like this tweet is going to wind up on a couple of pages as a result. Ice Phisherman posted:I mean the more I think about it the more that I think that it's a national narrative. A narrative that won out. One that's so accepted that it's now ultra low compaction, the inner and outer narrative are the same, but still exists and we can dust it off if we need it. I have noticed the same sort of phenomenon that you have, but I don't think it is something that can be described within the Narrativist Framework. I definitely agree that what you are describing here is occurring but after having slept on the matter I am strongly leaning towards this particular phenomenon probably being the result of an as yet unrecognized Self Replicating Behavior Pattern. While I have identified four separate Self Replicating Behavior Patterns in my work(Narrativists, Metathinkers, Stucturalists, Integrators)* it is my general contention that human psychology exists within a complicated ecosystem of thousands of interacting/evolving Self Replicating Behavior Patterns. So my suspicion is the phenomenon we are here observing is likely the product of another SRBP that is entirely separate from my present body of work. From a certain perspective we are experiencing the psychological/social/cultural equivalent of the immune systems response to an invasive parasite. I'm neither sure what is causing it nor religious but I still happily thank God for it because we as a people really needed this. *Specialists and Artisans have been renamed Structuralists and Integrators, respectively. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 15:46
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https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/897128195698311169
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Aug 14, 2017 17:26
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Funny. The 3%'ers just distanced themselves from the Nazi/Alt-Right movement. Then this guy tries to blow poo poo up with an improvised truck bomb. The first of many, many domestic terror events, sadly.
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Aug 14, 2017 19:06
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A Pretentious Owl posted:Did you see this post from /pol/ that explicitly, directly describes white nationalists trying to keep their inner narrative hidden and tailor their outer? Because I immediately thought of this thread. Wow, they're using tactics/phrasing from Dragon Ball Z.
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Aug 14, 2017 19:17
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I'm amused that they need to explain the purpose of the power level phrasing in the same post they take it's meaning for granted.
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Aug 15, 2017 01:32
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https://twitter.com/AHamiltonSpirit/status/897184906006155265 https://twitter.com/adamtvaccaro/status/897229847075971072 Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 01:33
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https://twitter.com/FederalistPitch/status/897281833527910400
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Aug 15, 2017 04:20
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I.E. "They're fighting back?! WTF?! Liberals aren't supposed to fight back!"
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Aug 15, 2017 12:55
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So...that was a crazy press conference huh?
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Aug 15, 2017 21:52
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WampaLord posted:And focusing on stuff like the Proud Boys is counter productive, they're an extreme minority and have no real power or influence. Well, I'm here to eat a lot of loving crow and admit that Prester Jane was basically right about everything.
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Aug 15, 2017 21:57
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She was right. All of it was right.  What happens now Prester Jane?
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Aug 15, 2017 22:12
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WampaLord posted:Well, I'm here to eat a lot of loving crow and admit that Prester Jane was basically right about everything. Like a murder of crows? Get it? Because that's the term for a group of crows and a poo poo ton of nazis just got the greenlight to murder nonwhites hahahahahhahha- I hope they don't do much in Cali.
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Aug 15, 2017 22:15
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She has a post about Trump melting down right?
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Aug 15, 2017 22:18
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axeil posted:She was right. All of it was right. You know that thing where America rises up in the darkest hour and makes the entire world admire us? It hasn't happened since Pearl Harbor, but I think it is getting ready to happen again. Whatever comes out of this (and there are numerous candlelight vigils and tears in all our collective futures) just remember to always keep your geet moving. Do not waste energy fretting if its too dark to see the way forwards, just know that one must exist and worry only on keeping your feet moving or helping those around you keep theirs moving. This is a survival saturation now, time to think like survivors. At the other side of this is an America beyond anything we can presently imagine, but we must first survive this. Nothing else matters right now. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 22:23
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RandomPauI posted:She has a post about Trump melting down right? I made a post in the Trump thread about how Trumps initial acquiescence to Kelly was just the prep for a record breaking meltdown about 20 minutes before that press conferance. Reposting it below: evilweasel posted:kelly did a reasonably good job for a week and then the news explaining to trump how kelly was controlling him made him lash out and show who the boss is Trump follows a set pattern pretty rigidly. I posted this back on August 2nd when a few goons were worried that Kelly might somehow bring competence to the Trump WH because early on he seemed to have things in hand:: Prester Jane posted:In my experience when a narcissist resorts to this sort of action it is only a temporary prelude to a record breaking outburst. Trump will respond to his new Daddy for awhile and will go along with things because he needs time to recharge his emotional batteries and (for now) he is getting the praise he needs to function. Like any addict though (my stance is that Trump is literally addicted to the rush of feel-good brain chemicals he gets when he receives praise) tolerance sets in quicker than you realize and eventually what Kelly can offer Trump won't be enough. Further, eventually Kelly's control of Trump will make Kelly the story instead of Trump. While that is okay for now because Kelly is offering Trump what he desperately needs, eventually Trump will sting this frog just like he has all the others. I want to double emphasize the bolded bit here.The meltdown that is brewing In Trumps malfunctioning brain will eclipse everything we have seen thus far. Trump folding to Kelly like he did is the sort of thing I have only seen a narcissist do when they were under extreme pressure and they desperately need some space to recharge their psychological batteries. (Thus Trumps vacation shortly after Kelly came on board.) Once those batteries are finished recharging we are going to see Trump drop the nice guy mask and start really trying to incite his followers into violently murdering anyone he feels animosity towards. (Or just any target really, so long as he gets the rush of power from feeling that he caused other people to do violence in his name Trump really does't give a gently caress who gets hurt.)
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Aug 15, 2017 22:24
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Prester Jane posted:You know that thing where America rises up in the darkest hour and makes the entire world admire us? It hasn't happened since Pearl Harbor, but I think it is getting ready to happen again. I'd love for you to keep being right, but my first reaction is that you're preaching to me about the Promised Land, and I have an immediate reaction to be suspicious of someone who does that. Not sure if you mean to come off thos way or not. Maybe I should read your speech like the one from Independence Day, but it feels like a preacher promising me glory in heaven. But yeah. Crazy presser.
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Aug 15, 2017 22:51
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Prester Jane posted:You know that thing where America rises up in the darkest hour and makes the entire world admire us? It hasn't happened since Pearl Harbor, but I think it is getting ready to happen again American Exceptionalism doesn't exist. Its entirely possible for things to get bad and just kind of stay that way.
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Aug 15, 2017 23:01
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Yeah that definitely sounds very narrativist, there is little guarantee that reaction to bad things is going to be good, as aesthetically pleasing as it is to think.
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Aug 15, 2017 23:05
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Fair enough, in truth I was trying to find a way to lift spirits by suggesting that there is life on the other side of this situation. I did convey it in a rather Narrativist fashion though I'll fully concede. That said, check out this letter that sone tried to force Kathy Griffin to publicly release as a way of apologizing to Trump. This stuff is 100% designed to give Trump enough Supply that he might be magnanimous enough to stop attacking Kathy. https://twitter.com/yashar/status/897567784271577090
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Aug 15, 2017 23:33
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Prester Jane posted:Fair enough, in truth I was trying to find a way to lift spirits by suggesting that there is life on the other side of this situation. I did convey it in a rather Narrativist fashion though I'll fully concede. Saw this in another thread; I would take it with a truck load of salt and wait for confirmation.
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Aug 15, 2017 23:48
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Somehow I don't imagine Trump making it to Christmas without being impeached. With the threat of the Mueller probe coming out, his ties to Russians confirmed, his dirty dealings threatening to be verified and now defending Nazis I don't really believe that Trump will make it to Christmas without being impeached. I mean, that's a long time away when we're talking about Trump, but I want to be positive about my assumption. So here's my assumption. The white supremacists will intensify their attacks to try and force a showdown between the executive and the rest of the government. Trump will not be able to distract anymore with his antics. Defending Nazis blows everything he could do short of declaring war or launching a nuclear weapon. Unable to distract anymore the journalists will attempt to get him to change his tune or get him to slip up and openly declare for the fascists. He'll bleed followers, his rallies will no longer be republican rallies. They're going to be fascist rallies. Not because he really believes in fascism at his core, because I don't think he believes in anything save for himself, but because he requires praise. So imagine someone unfurling a Nazi flag at one of his rallies and he just doesn't stop it. This drives down republican attendance and drives up the number of fascists attending. In short as republicans abandon him he's going to try and get his feel good supply from the only source left that is full-throatedly in favor of him: The fascists. While I am worried and expecting widespread violence, I'm not particularly worried about Trump being able to seize power and hold it. Republicans are not a youth movement. They're old, old, old. All of the security apparatus of the country either doesn't like or openly hates him. The intelligence agencies despise him. The armed forces don't like him. He's repeatedly insulted the FBI. Maybe local police will back him in some places, but not many and not numerous enough to matter. Further, the republicans are not backing him, so if he calls for a state of emergency and declares martial law I figure most will simply tell him no with how unhinged he is, not to mention the democrats openly telling him no. He'll call for the enforcement arm of the government to act on his behalf and few will actually heed the call. It may not even be planned to do so. He may spout off at the mouth about "Go show the alt-left who's boss" and he gets people killed. Not because he's looking for more power, because that's secondary, but looking for more praise. Unintentionally kicking off something he's not prepared for. PJ said that this event is like a Pearl Harbor. I agree. And as a professional political scientist and a history junkie I feel both at the same time that I'm finally coming back into my wheelhouse as politicians try to save their asses or make hay off angry citizens while on the psychological end I feel like I am 100% out of my depth besides listening to PJ. So I'm trying to synthesize a response. I see politicians on the right trying desperately to save themselves, save their party and save conservatism such as it is. It's not going to work while the head of their party is furiously poking holes in the ship of state. There's no way they'll be able to bail out conservatism faster than it sinks and the longer they tolerate him the more damage there could be. At the same time the left is getting organized in a way that I'm not surprised by given the circumstances. People are realizing that a republican congress is paralyzed by indecision as they cravenly look for the best way out of a situation which will not go away until confronted. Only now as it threatens to confront them by forcing them to make choices either for or against supporting white supremacy. The left is getting organized and in the midterm I see leftist versions of the tea party cropping up as well as antifa membership skyrocketing. Even if Trump goes away I don't see membership stalling out because there'd still be a republican party largely in charge of things. Their rage is going to spill over into the elections. Rage in general, really. I don't see this deescalating anymore. Not because I believe in some sort of inherent good of Trump, but because he can't distract anymore to simply silently call it a victory and forget about the argument. The fascists are going to do their damndest to force him to back them. The leftists and even moderates are too alert to danger to be distracted again. Trump will seek supply from a dwindling amount of republicans with dwindling amounts of praise and will instead find it in the exuberant cheers of white fascism. Imagine a rally soon where he surrounds himself with these people, sees that Nazi flags, sees the Nazi salutes, and instead of telling them to pipe down he drinks it in instead. The republican party is doomed. Top to bottom loving doomed at this point. If by some chance Trump emerges victorious they're going to get purged with Trump supporters. If in the more likely event that Trump gets tossed out of office the stink will never come off. They'll never replace their numbers. They'll never attract enough minorities to become a viable party ever again because this is what full republican party control looks like. If we make it to 2018 the republican party will still exist, but it's going to be banished to the weeds because moderate white voters won't tempt fate again and minority voters will have learned better. In short, and to reiterate, modern conservatism is going to be dealt a death blow. The coalition that sustains them was old and crusty when we started, but as people flee rather than condone or take part in coming violence it won't be able to scrape together enough votes to be a party that wins anymore or it will be purged top to bottom by Trump, so the new party will be skinned to drape across an openly white fascist GOP. All that's left is to see if they die a slow death as a rump party that can't win anymore or if they die a quick death by being purged. My honest guess to PJ is that there are enough narrativists out there to cause real havoc in our country, but they're not sophisticated, well stocked or well supplied in general. You're going to have a lot of white terror attacks for a few years with most of the attacks being front loaded. If terror attacks ramp up too much too fast it's not like the fascists don't live out in the open. It's the age of social media and failing that, IP addresses. The left isn't going to take it forever and eventually someone is going to publish lists of where these people work and sleep. I'm hoping it doesn't get there, but if it does it's going to get ugly. Reprisal attacks will happen when civil society breaks down. This is going to be bigger than 9/11. Even without Trump the fascist and fringe conservative rage in our country has been bubbling for years and it's ripe to boil over. It just needs a reason to go now. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 23:57
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Vox has an article that may be relevant to the thread: Psychologists surveyed hundreds of alt-right supporters. The results are unsettling. (original paper here) quote:One of the starkest, darkest findings in the survey comes from a simple question: How evolved do you think other people are?
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Aug 16, 2017 00:48
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I did laugh at the chart of humanity that had Hillary Clinton at the very bottom.
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Aug 16, 2017 01:14
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Ice Phisherman posted:Excellent "words" This is a very fine analysis that really does synthesize the Narrativist Framework with a more tradition understanding of politics. Thank you for this, I quite enjoyed reading it and agree with pretty much everything. Edit: Just stumbled across this. looks like the Racist cluster saw this whole thing as the start of the Great Upwelling even before the events of the past few days. This does explain the police's behavior though. https://twitter.com/dangranata/status/897090875494453248 Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 01:33
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...=nl_most&wpmm=1 Don't worry, only half of republicans would support a trump dictatorship
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Aug 16, 2017 01:51
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Aug 16, 2017 02:29
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I've really enjoyed this entire thread! PJ, you are an amazing writer.Ice Phisherman posted:The republican party is doomed. Top to bottom loving doomed at this point. If by some chance Trump emerges victorious they're going to get purged with Trump supporters. If in the more likely event that Trump gets tossed out of office the stink will never come off. They'll never replace their numbers. They'll never attract enough minorities to become a viable party ever again because this is what full republican party control looks like. If we make it to 2018 the republican party will still exist, but it's going to be banished to the weeds because moderate white voters won't tempt fate again and minority voters will have learned better. In short, and to reiterate, modern conservatism is going to be dealt a death blow. The coalition that sustains them was old and crusty when we started, but as people flee rather than condone or take part in coming violence it won't be able to scrape together enough votes to be a party that wins anymore or it will be purged top to bottom by Trump, so the new party will be skinned to drape across an openly white fascist GOP. All that's left is to see if they die a slow death as a rump party that can't win anymore or if they die a quick death by being purged. I may be biased because I'm a very liberal person who has lived in suburban/urban Texas my entire life. From what I can tell, some Republicans are very used to their party doing things that harm the working class and/or marginalized populations--for example, I've met gay men who voted Republican because they feel really passionate about guns and/or fiscal conservativism even though they knew that they were voting for someone who would try to halt progress in LGBTQ+ civil rights. From what I can tell, they seem to really believe that fiscal conservativism will create economic opportunities for everyone including working class LGBTQ+ people. Supposedly, after LGBTQ+ people pursue the American Dream of financial propserity, then the voting public will accept us and we won't need anti-discrimination legislation. I think it's also tied with cynicism about what other parties will actually accomplish. Sometimes they also seem to have a little bit of internalized prejudice against their own community. I feel like I see variations of this reasoning when I talk to Republicans who are part of other marginalized populations. If Trump gets impeached, they'll just blame him and continue to vote Republican.
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Aug 16, 2017 03:16
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Deteriorata posted:Vox has an article that may be relevant to the thread: I'd be happier with that study if they referenced Stenner over Altermeyer, the cherry-picking of RWA traits is not a good practice.
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Aug 16, 2017 03:36
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