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hiddenriverninja posted:Compassion ends when you try to hurt people. The end. Yes. Nazis and white supremacists are trying to hurt people.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:44
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Pollyanna posted:Yes. Nazis and white supremacists are trying to hurt people. Agreed, I have no compassion for Nazis so beating them is okay.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:44
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So I take it this https://twitter.com/attention_cnn/status/897075131704635392 Didn't happen.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:44
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Hellblazer187 posted:After a day of reflection, I'm over the "gently caress the ACLU" stance. It was kind of a gut reaction to some strong events. I understand why they do what they do. Still, I'm wondering what the very best org to donate to is if the goal is shutting down Nazis. Some good recommendations earlier for orgs that need and deserve money, but I'll have to do some research into their Nazi fighting efforts. The SPLC is good, but all things considered the ACLU are the people who are standing at the airport and protests most of the time. They do stuff like defend Nazis because of their Hardline neutrality, but they are still good about actually getting poo poo done. So if you want to continue to donate to them you shouldn't feel guilty. As others have said, the cops are with the Nazis already so anything the ACLU does helps us in the long term really
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Aug 14, 2017 16:45
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Paradoxish posted:They're always going to exist. They exist in places where their ideology is literally banned. Part of keeping them from reaching critical mass is giving the people most likely to join these groups some other positive outlet. Nice long term plan my dude, so now what do you do with the ones that already exist that marched yesterday and will continue in the near future?
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Aug 14, 2017 16:45
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The funny thing about this is that he's flat-out admitting that Trump is an empty-headed imbecile who is easily manipulated. Normally the president "controls the white house", not his lackeys.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:46
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Google Butt posted:Nice long term plan my dude, so now what do you do with the ones that already exist that marched yesterday and will continue in the near future? I have a solution
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Aug 14, 2017 16:46
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By the way a 3%er tried to blow up OKC again but whoops he bought his poo poo from the Feds https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...06ab_story.html
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Aug 14, 2017 16:46
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Pembroke Fuse posted:Punching Nazis is a very short-term solution. Permanent solutions come from social, culture and political restructuring. So, in the short term punch Nazis to protect the vulnerable. In the long term elect better politicians, educate people about Socialism and feminism and work to materially improve the communities that you live in. Yes these problems can't be solved by politics. They require cultural changes at a vast level and interaction with people on a day to day basis on all levels of local community - from the church to local events.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:46
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Tayter Swift posted:So I take it this Exasperated.jpg
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Aug 14, 2017 16:46
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https://mobile.twitter.com/SethMillstein/status/896991396342546433
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Aug 14, 2017 16:46
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PhazonLink posted:GoDaddy did something good, why is facebook and twitter still not doing anything good? I got banned from FB for three days yesterday for saying, in a SAGoon closed group, that I wish we had a word as visceral as "human being" for white supremacists.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:47
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hiddenriverninja posted:Compassion ends when you try to hurt people. The end. WampaLord posted:BREITBART ALREADY OWNS THE NARRATIVE! Steve loving Bannon is Trump's right hand man! My question is, on reflection, what really are your values? Pembroke Fuse posted:Punching Nazis is a very short-term solution. Permanent solutions come from social, culture and political restructuring. So, in the short term punch Nazis to protect the vulnerable. In the long term elect better politicians, educate people about Socialism and feminism and work to materially improve the communities that you live in. Goebbels campaigned on a promise to stop (commie on nazi) street violence. Hitler consolidated power after an act of anti-nazi terrorism. (What would have worked, that late in the game? Maybe general strikes and boycotts? I don't know.)
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Aug 14, 2017 16:48
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I don't want Trump to actually say the magic words because it'll be meaningless, but garbage pundits and Republicans will pretend like everything is okay again.Pollyanna posted:Listen, I subscribe to the belief that tolerance is intolerance of intolerance. As soon as what you have to say amounts to wishing death and destruction on entire minority groups, you've instigated violence and will be met with the same. Hannah Arendt posted:Just as you [Adolf Eichmann] supported and carried out a policy of not wanting to share the earth with the Jewish people and the people of a number of other nations--as though you and your superiors had any right to determine who should and who should not inhabit the world--we find that no one, that is, no member of the human race, can be expected to share the world with you. This is the reason, and the only reason, you must hang.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:48
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Cingulate posted:My question is, on reflection, what really are your values? My values are that I'm Jewish. Punch/Fire/Doxx/Mace all Nazis. Cingulate posted:Breitbart are a notable player, but still very right of the spectrum. Soccer moms, who voted Trump for like 56%, don't read Breitbart, they go to Fox and CNN. Holy gently caress are you an idiot. He's got the ear of the President, the soccer moms don't.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:50
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evilweasel posted:you deny them jobs, you deny them the ability to interact with society, you scorn them and exile them from anything that could give them support, you make clear anyone failing to scorn and ostracise them will be met with similar scorn, etc etc All of the above.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:50
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Tayter Swift posted:So I take it this he was being briefed at 1130 probably has a bunch of staff trying to convince him to say that actually nazis are in fact bad.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:51
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Tayter Swift posted:So I take it this lol the chyron... their faces... This jpeg is our national phylactery.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:52
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Actually Hannah Arendt didn't mind Nazis so much when she had an affair with one. I would take the ACLU over Arendt any day of the week. The ACLU is cool and in fact, good.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:52
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Cingulate posted:All violence is bad. Suffering is bad. Even the suffering of bad people is suffering. I'm not sure I buy the first. Can you clarify that one a bit? Do you mean that both violence and suffering are two quantities that are bad (so even if there were violence without suffering [e.g. cartoon violence that does not cause people to become desensitized to the use of violence], it would still be bad)? Or do you mean that violence tends to be bad because it tends to create suffering? Are there other bad things outside of suffering and violence and if so are they weighted in any particular way? I ask because I would read "punching Nazis" as an affirmation of self-respect or of human dignity, which even I agreed that the suffering of bad people is bad suffering, might give me pause to say that it is bad at every level, rather than just at an all-things-considered level. More fundamentally, I agree that the suffering of bad people is suffering, but I would reject that this is bad. It seems perfectly plausible that the goodness or badness of a thing is partially due to its recipient (e.g. the happiness a poor person gets out of receiving a good is better than the happiness of a rich person, even if they are equally happy and even if the costs in both cases are equal). Similarly, my guess would be that most people would say it was good that some Nazis were tried and executed at Nuremberg, rather than there being fake executions and those Nazis being squirreled away to a nice island to live out a comfortable middle class existence. I'm pretty agnostic on the last point. It probably is playing into their narrative, but if so I would say a large amount of the blame would fall on those believing it and that while it might be true that we would need to change our tactics, that would be a tragedy. Or it might be that the people it is appealing to would have found some other justification to go Nazi anyway and the "punching Nazi" strategy actually isn't suboptimal. Or perhaps it is suboptimal, but we have no particular way to control it, so our job is to try to create a narrative of justification towards it in order to further resist Nazism.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:53
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random aside: the alabama primary for Jeff Session's seat is tomorrow. the seat is currently held by Luther Strange, who got the appointment under ... dubious ... circumstances: he was investigating the governor of Alabama and got appointed to the senate in what was widely seen as an effort to derail the investigation. that failed: the governor pled guilty to some misdemeanors and resigned in what was basically a plea bargain. he has been what mcconnell likes in a senator: doesn't cause trouble, just votes as he's told to. mcconnell badly wants him to win the primary. if anyone gets 50%+1, they get the spot: otherwise it's a top two runoff. there will be a special election in December. he is being challenged by Mel Brooks, a HFC nutjob who was running a fairly good outsider campaign against strange but was Disloyal To Trump during the campaign and that has formed the backbone of most negative advertising against him. Brooks was in a strong position, but those attacks hurt, badly, because alabama voters love trump (and probably love him more after his praise of white nationalists) he is also being challenged by Roy Moore, the guy who is such a shithead that alabama removed him from the supreme court twice for defying federal court orders. strange is basically in trouble because of two things: his link to the disgraced governor based on the sketchy circumstances of his appointment, and that mcconnell loves him. alabama republicans are not mcconnell fans (probably because of misplaced blame, but he's seen as the avatar of 'establishment republicans' instead of Trumpists) so while mcconnell has funneled tons of cash to him, his connection there doesn't help. brooks is basically running a "if you hate mitch mcconnell don't vote for strange" campaign. moore seems to have come out of nowhere in the past few weeks and is expected to easily secure the most votes. Strange and Brooks are now competing for second place and hoping Moore doesn't get 50%. trump has in the past few days tweeted out support for Strange, who was very likely not to get 2nd place but might have a better shot at it now. republicans are a little concerned moore might manage to get 50% and brooks' support will collapse given the polls showing that moore is the real anti-strange candidate. why is the selection of which racist shithead alabama voters will nominate for the republican slot in deep-red alabama relevant? because of Moore, basically: there is some belief that he is such a crazy nutjob that he may be a new Akin and actually manage to blow it. the DNC has been very quiet about the whole thing but is widely expected to actually compete for the seat if a solid candidate wins the Dem primary (Doug Jones, who I know nothing about) and Moore manages to get the Republican nomination. moore would still be a prohibitive favorite, but it'd be a shot at least.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:53
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i am harry posted:I got banned from FB for three days yesterday for saying, in a SAGoon closed group, that I wish we had a word as visceral as "human being" for white supremacists. Words become bad when you use them to generically describe bad things. So just start calling people bad at video games "nazis", use the term "nazied" when you're ripped off, when people are scared to do something, say "what are you, a 'nazi'?", and so on.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:54
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Pembroke Fuse posted:People aren't rational automatons, which is the point I was trying to get across. Doing things that will hurt you in the long run is a mainstay of the human species. Realizing that this isn't all "free-will moral responsibility bootstraps" poo poo is part of it. People are basket cases of bad programming, built in biases and social constructs. Pulling them out of that culture and social setting is paramount to getting them to change their minds. You are 100% correct, but what you don't understand is that the time for talk has passed. We do need to reach out to the disaffected in the ways you suggest, but we can only do that after we have finished punching Nazi's. I will be frank. You are an idealist who simply does not understand the first thing about pathological minds or how to deal with them. Right now forceful confrontation is neccesarry because if these violent white supremacist rallies are not crushed with street violence then the numbers of active Nazi's will swell in a loving hurry and our society will be almost unsalvagable at that point. This is a survival scenario and a fight to the death. The Nazi's have forced it to this level and the point where intellectualism mattered at all is passed us. Punch loving Nazi's. We can offer a hand up to any of the survivors once none remain standing. You are frankly completely inexperienced with fighting to the death against pathological individuals and despite the fact that you are correct in a technical sense you lack the experience to understand that when blood has been drawn it is now a fight to the loving death. (Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are naive and coddled in this particular context) You only win a fight to the death by loving smashing the poo poo out of the opponent that is trying to kill you. In a fight to the death there is no such thing as intellectualism or reasoning with your opponent. Once blood is drawn all that poo poo goes out the window. You loving end your opponents ability to harm you before they do the same to you. End of discussion. Your ideas will actually be incredibly useful once our society has finishing flattening every single Nazi. Until then though you are literally less than useless because you are getting in the way of the punching Nazi's that needs to loving happen.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:55
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Cingulate posted:I still think it's not even that it's not a good solution, but that it's actively making things worse. This is a question of pubic perception, to a certain extent. People in the Weimar Republic were terrified of Communism (see USSR) and the KPD were incredibly violent in matching the Freikorps/SA. Similar violent riots agains the fascist National Front in the UK in the '70s did not cause the same level of public backlash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lewisham I guess the question is: when America sees Nazis, is it more likely to support them or the people marching against them?
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Aug 14, 2017 16:55
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botany posted:
Yes of course but that's what it's based on. That a national identity is in the race and not the location.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:55
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Boy am I concerned about feeding into the Nazis narrative, I better take the moral high ground.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:55
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Cingulate posted:I haven't thought this through very much, but isn't that kind of the opposite of what you want? To the extent that you can convince people (which may be limited), it's by immersing them in good communities, by bringing them in contact with the gays and minorities and so on they so much fear, by showing them love and compassion and harmony etc. Not - though maybe also - because they have a right for that, but because it's what actually works. people ostracized entirely are probably not going to correct their behavior and remain shitheads, but you need strong social consequences to deter people before they get to that point. there's also a range between nothing and "you're fired, and nobody will speak to you ever again", though the internet tends to be bad at hitting that middle point to punish while leaving an avenue open for reform
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Aug 14, 2017 16:56
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Dietrich posted:Words become bad when you use them to generically describe bad things. So just start calling people bad at video games "nazis", use the term "nazied" when you're ripped off, when people are scared to do something, say "what are you, a 'nazi'?", and so on. Rofl I love the "getting nazied" suggestion.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:56
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Cingulate posted:This is much to vast of a topic to say anything useful here I fear. I just want to ask one question: whoever is cheering for nazis being punched, are you happy this is happening because you 1. think in the long run, it will make the lives of people better? 2. will make the lives of certain people - e.g., innocents - better? 3. hate nazis, cause they're bad people, and think it's good if they're suffering? I think the whole nazi-punching thing is more important as a narrative message then the literal act. Like a line drawn in the sand of people saying that "white nationalism will not be accepted" because getting punched is a much more real and intimidate consequence then maybe getting ostracized. White Nationalism and the Alt-Right to me represent a resistance against social justice. Their extreme views also only help to normalize lesser but still lovely views. I'll admit to a degree of speaking from emotion, but what is the "high-road" option? I feel like taking the high road might be how we got exactly where we are now.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:56
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Google Butt posted:Looks like is turning this Nazi around Translation: As long as my ideology is in power I'll demand the rule of law. The moment this changes I'll talk about keeping powder dry, watering the tree of liberty with blood and how armed standoffs against laws we disagree with are okay.
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Aug 14, 2017 16:57
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Right wing nuts feel safe to talk poo poo because they think that left wing folks are "f*** and cucks". Punching them corrects that delusion. It's a line in the sand, yes, but it's also correcting the idea that you aren't "tough" unless you have your polos and tiki torches.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:00
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Google Butt posted:Nice long term plan my dude, so now what do you do with the ones that already exist that marched yesterday and will continue in the near future? Shame and ostracize them. Arrest if they do something illegal. Punch them if you want. You seem to be reading something into my post that isn't there.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:01
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Fun story about antifa: I met an Asian American songwriter who told me he was getting stomped by skinheads in Harrisburg when the antifa came and beat up the skinheads, saving his life. Do you think any wishy washy middle class liberals want to brawl with nazis to save some Asian guy's life? This is why antifa is good and the only people anguished about them are white as rice
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Aug 14, 2017 17:02
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stillvisions posted:Translation: As long as my ideology is in power I'll demand the rule of law. The moment this changes I'll talk about keeping powder dry, watering the tree of liberty with blood and how armed standoffs against laws we disagree with are okay. I wonder - a lot of these guys are baby nazis. Not hard-forged in hate. Never been to a protest like this before. Never having even met minorities. Believing bullshit peddled online. Surely some of the events this weekend turned off some of them due to personal experiences.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:02
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Oxyclean posted:I think the whole nazi-punching thing is more important as a narrative message then the literal act. Like a line drawn in the sand of people saying that "white nationalism will not be accepted" because getting punched is a much more real and intimidate consequence then maybe getting ostracized. White Nationalism and the Alt-Right to me represent a resistance against social justice. Their extreme views also only help to normalize lesser but still lovely views. The high road is that thing we take when we take a toke. Makes everything better man. Try the high road mannn...i hear it's intoxicatingly self righteous
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Aug 14, 2017 17:02
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The McMaster thing is super funny. When he first joined Trump's team, he received nothing but adulation from the right wing. When it turned out he was competent and possessed a brain and started firing idiots, they turned on him almost immediately.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Someone interview ben carson
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Aug 14, 2017 17:04
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Prester Jane posted:Your ideas will actually be incredibly useful once our society has finishing flattening every single Nazi. Until then though you are literally less than useless because you are getting in the way of the punching Nazi's that needs to loving happen. I'm not really an idealist. I've had that knocked out of me on Nov. 8th, pathetic as that may be. I know it's a struggle now. However, we can't do X until we do Y is kind of inadequate. Yes, we should be punching Nazis. But we're not going to be doing that all of the time and some of us aren't even in a position to do so. I think we're capable of developing an outreach mechanism while we also create left wing organizations to counter Nazi violence. We can do more than one thing at a time.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:05
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WampaLord posted:My values are that I'm Jewish. Punch/Fire/Doxx/Mace all Nazis. I know asking for passivity in the face of Nazi violence has a pretty bad history, particularly antisemitic violence. But in this situation, I think violence from the left is only making things worse. yronic heroism posted:Actually Hannah Arendt didn't mind Nazis so much when she had an affair with one. The quote is good though. Though note, I first encountered in support of the death penalty in the US. Reflections85 posted:I'm not sure I buy the first. Can you clarify that one a bit? Do you mean that both violence and suffering are two quantities that are bad (so even if there were violence without suffering [e.g. cartoon violence that does not cause people to become desensitized to the use of violence], it would still be bad)? Or do you mean that violence tends to be bad because it tends to create suffering? Are there other bad things outside of suffering and violence and if so are they weighted in any particular way? I ask because I would read "punching Nazis" as an affirmation of self-respect or of human dignity, which even I agreed that the suffering of bad people is bad suffering, might give me pause to say that it is bad at every level, rather than just at an all-things-considered level. I do think something can have both good and bad aspects. E.g., killing Hitler would be bad because a few people would be sad, but it would also be good because Hitler murdered ten of millions of people, so in this case the good very clearly outweighs the bad. Reflections85 posted:More fundamentally, I agree that the suffering of bad people is suffering, but I would reject that this is bad. It seems perfectly plausible that the goodness or badness of a thing is partially due to its recipient (e.g. the happiness a poor person gets out of receiving a good is better than the happiness of a rich person, even if they are equally happy and even if the costs in both cases are equal). Similarly, my guess would be that most people would say it was good that some Nazis were tried and executed at Nuremberg, rather than there being fake executions and those Nazis being squirreled away to a nice island to live out a comfortable middle class existence. I'm not claiming this is obviously the case, I am aware you can make a strong case for deserved punishment being good even if it increases net suffering. Reflections85 posted:I'm pretty agnostic on the last point. It probably is playing into their narrative, but if so I would say a large amount of the blame would fall on those believing it and that while it might be true that we would need to change our tactics, that would be a tragedy. Or it might be that the people it is appealing to would have found some other justification to go Nazi anyway and the "punching Nazi" strategy actually isn't suboptimal. Or perhaps it is suboptimal, but we have no particular way to control it, so our job is to try to create a narrative of justification towards it in order to further resist Nazism. (I don't care for "blame" really. Causes are important. Blame, not so much. See the above link.)
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Aug 14, 2017 17:06
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Boris Galerkin posted:Has he done any harm from his HUD position? I feel like I haven't heard his name mentioned since he was appointed. It's not really ideal but if he's at least not actively working against the American people's interests then that's a plus at least right? A really, really, low plus, but one nonetheless. he's doing harm through negligence, HUD administers some important grants that provide funding for housing, transportation etc. carson is likely to allow trump to cut these, and carson is also going to parrot the party line on "free market reforms" to housing for the poor aka slums and trailer parks
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Aug 14, 2017 17:07
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