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Atlas Hugged posted:Honestly I don't know. I've not played it. I've only played Firefight with people who have played it and they don't compare it favorably. One guy complained that his opponent in 40k exploited a rule blocking shooting into combat by having the models that weren't engaged form a conga line that could shield the rest of his army. I have no idea if this was just a shitlord taking advantage of a newbie or a real problem with the rules. 40k has always allowed you to block fire to units by having other units in the way, but to pull off something like a massive conga line that's in combat would man based on the position of the enemy you're in combat with, you're probably only able to fight with like 20% of your dudes while the enemy is fighting with 100% of his dudes chewing through your conga line bit by bit. It should not really be any kind of advantage, especially when some kind of flying or biker or jetpack unit could just flank anyways. But I find SW:A / Necromunda to be better than 40k anyways since like you said, no units.
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Aug 13, 2017 19:23
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Wizard Styles posted:So how poo poo is the current 40k then? It's really loving good.
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Aug 13, 2017 19:48
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Wizard Styles posted:
I feel like the sword chick in particular has GW build syndrome, in the sense that they are terrible at building their own models and you can probably make it look a lot better once youre assembling the multipart kits yourself.
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Aug 13, 2017 23:01
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Wizard Styles posted:So how poo poo is the current 40k then? It's actually fun, shockingly enough.
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Aug 13, 2017 23:47
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I am 100% going to make a goth chick Escher gang. 100 loving percent.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:11
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The Sex Cannon posted:I am 100% going to make a goth chick Escher gang.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clkko7vWbC8
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Aug 14, 2017 00:34
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It doesn't suck at all. If you want Old Necromunda you can use the old rules with the new models, so it's still good even if the rules suck. And there is absolutely no reason to write the new rules off yet when we know next to nothing about them. Isn't the turnover thing in bb like universally reviled? I've only played a few times but noped out when I rolled a one and lost my turn or some poo poo.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:45
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muggins posted:Isn't the turnover thing in bb like universally reviled? I've only played a few times but noped out when I rolled a one and lost my turn or some poo poo. Good lord no. It's, like, critical to how the game plays and functions.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:54
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muggins posted:Isn't the turnover thing in bb like universally reviled? I've only played a few times but noped out when I rolled a one and lost my turn or some poo poo. The turnover system is what makes Blood Bowl what it is. It is all about weighing your decisions and managing the order of your activations. Take that out and it's not nearly as entertaining and frustrating.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:56
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Blood Bowl is entirely a game of managing risks and mitigating gently caress ups. Turnovers are what make the game exciting and kept people playing long after it was out of print. Turnovers are a truly brilliant mechanic.
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Aug 14, 2017 01:02
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muggins posted:Isn't the turnover thing in bb like universally reviled? I've only played a few times but noped out when I rolled a one and lost my turn or some poo poo. It turns what would otherwise be a dull simulator into a risk management game. Without the turnover, stupidly complex plays would be the norm and teams like elves and skaven would be almost unstoppable. With it, players have to choose the correct order for their actions and if they get ahead of themselves they pay for it in later turns. In fact, lots of games have some kind of command component that adds a level of risk or prevents you from attempting everything you want every turn. You're forced to choose what you think is the most important or risk handing an advantage to your opponent. Sometimes it's implemented well, others not so much. Blood Bowl mostly does it right by having both players at risk and including rerolls. The turnover can be frustrating, but the game would actually be worse without it.
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Aug 14, 2017 01:03
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Insane to want it in Necromunda, though. I have to say those new Goliaths look amazing!
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Aug 14, 2017 01:04
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The turnover system is reviled by people who analyse rulesets and games at length online while avoiding all human contact and possibility of playing them.
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Aug 14, 2017 01:06
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Chaos Warriors without the huge drawback of no skills to deal with Turnovers during the early season would be hilariously overpowered. In Necromunda I think it could work if it's in an alternating activation style. You're only losing a go with one guy if you mess up.
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Aug 14, 2017 01:08
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FNz8ZsFxgM
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Aug 14, 2017 01:37
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Blood Bowl without turnovers would be like sex without a goldfish.
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Aug 14, 2017 01:42
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Blood Bowl without turnovers would be like sex without a goldfish. 
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Aug 14, 2017 02:44
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muggins posted:Isn't the turnover thing in bb like universally reviled? I've only played a few times but noped out when I rolled a one and lost my turn or some poo poo. Yeah, Blood Bowl without turnovers would be a terrible game. Risk management makes it what it is, the order you perform each action on your turn is critically important as well as trying to mitigate the risk of a turnover to still end the turn in your favor. Also I’m terrible at it but I love it.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:08
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Yeah I know BB is a sacred cow, I just never got into roll a one and lose your turn. I understand push your luck etc, but much preferred guild ball or even dreadball for a rugby game. (and I played plenty of games, TT, and I hate that mechanic and was hoping it'd change with a new bb)
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Aug 14, 2017 03:38
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muggins posted:Yeah I know BB is a sacred cow, I just never got into roll a one and lose your turn. I understand push your luck etc, but much preferred guild ball or even dreadball for a rugby game. They are very very different. Guildball is basically just a tactical skirmish game, that happens to have a ball in it. BB is a board game like chess or checkers, except the pieces actively hate you and punish you for hubris. I hated it too when I thought it was basically random, but it's a much deeper game of resource and risk management than I initially gave it credit for.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:43
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Yeah. I mean the basic thing to remember about Blood Bowl is that you need to do everything that doesn't involve dice rolls first whenever possible to mitigate the effects of dice.
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Aug 14, 2017 04:16
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:In Necromunda I think it could work if it's in an alternating activation style. You're only losing a go with one guy if you mess up. Well, if it's one model activating at a time, then every action is a turnover regardless of success or failure. If you had "commands" where you activated multiple models simultaneously (like some fan-edits of Mordheim have alternating activations but let you activate a group of henchman), but if one messed up the group didn't complete the command and it passed to your opponent, that might be interesting. What I would want to see is alternating activations plus AP. You get AP as a resource and activate one model at a time, but by the end of the turn you may not have been able to activate every model. It would be fast gameplay where you could respond right away to your opponent's choices, but you'd have to decide if shooting the heavy was more valuable than moving two guys into better positions for the next turn or recovery a knocked down dude was more important than grabbing a loot token. As you lost models, you'd have to make less critical decisions about managing your AP, but you'd also have less to work with in general. Basically, I want modern gameplay, but I also don't want it to feel the same as Deadzone. It needs to be distinct.
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Aug 14, 2017 04:47
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JoshTheStampede posted:I hated it too when I thought it was basically random, but it's a much deeper game of resource and risk management than I initially gave it credit for. Same, my first game I almost gave up I hated turnovers so much. By the third game I saw the genius and how deep the strategy hole really went.
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Aug 14, 2017 06:50
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Dreadball is a good example of how to remove turnovers. Instead of risk management it focuses on positioning and trying to roll fire, but had to switch to a very different scoring system to accommodate that. Anyway, turnovers make blood bowl what it is, but that's not to say it's perfect. It's a swingy dice game where with just moderately poor rolling you can have a miserable experience and if you're starting a league, quite easily get to the point where your team is fatally weakened and you may as well start a new team. This can be fine for a table top game - unless it's taking you hours - but it definitely isn't everyone's cup of tea and some of that is basically because it's still clearly 80s gently caress-you design in many ways.
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Aug 14, 2017 08:38
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As somebody who beats the Necro drum in this thread, I'm actually really stoked for a release with a new rule system. Only downside is some people are saying it looks like 32mm scale. So the new models will be like Biglys vs Marines when it comes to using my old gangs :/ Atlas Hugged posted:Well, if it's one model activating at a time, then every action is a turnover regardless of success or failure. If you had "commands" where you activated multiple models simultaneously (like some fan-edits of Mordheim have alternating activations but let you activate a group of henchman), but if one messed up the group didn't complete the command and it passed to your opponent, that might be interesting. This is very similar to This Is Not A Test - which is a very good skirmish game on par with Necromunda. You activate a model at a time. Roll an activation test (typically 5+ on a D10). If you succeed, the model has 2AP (or 3AP if you crit and have a certain skill). If you fail, it has 1AP and play passes to your opponent. You can never voluntarily pass play or fail an activation test. This activation system can be frustrating, but also leads to the same activation order risk assessment as Blood Bowl. It can lead to moments where your entire team goes, and then your opponent has their entire team to react. You do not want this to happen unless you're able to successfully alpha strike - which you won't because too many things can go wrong.
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Aug 14, 2017 10:39
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Thirsty Dog posted:Dreadball is a good example of how to remove turnovers. Instead of risk management it focuses on positioning and trying to roll fire, but had to switch to a very different scoring system to accommodate that. If there's anything "wrong" with Blood Bowl it's that the game is showing its age. It's not the turnover mechanic itself. Like you said, the game relies a great deal on rolling well and the player often has limited options to affect his odds. This is a large part of the reason why there are "tiered" teams. But in a vacuum, Blood Bowl works well enough for what it is. glitchkrieg posted:Only downside is some people are saying it looks like 32mm scale. So the new models will be like Biglys vs Marines when it comes to using my old gangs :/ That's the vibe I was getting.
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Aug 14, 2017 11:14
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Thirsty Dog posted:Dreadball is a good example of how to remove turnovers. Instead of risk management it focuses on positioning and trying to roll fire, but had to switch to a very different scoring system to accommodate that. I will definitely agree that Blood Bowl might not be for everyone, but I think you are missing the fact that Blood Bowl is interesting. The thrill of a very poorly conceived play with almost no chance of working succeeding against your world crushing Orc opponents can't be beat. Embracing the horrific bad luck is just part of the fun. I wanted to like Space Basketball, but it just felt so cold and dead. I have started getting into Guild Ball because I really like the idea of sports boardgames but it is mainly it is just a fun version of War Machine. Blood Bowl loses a lot if you are not playing in a league which is one of the main strengths. There is a reason Blood Bowl had a continuous, fanatical following for years with no official support.
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Aug 14, 2017 12:02
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Yeah, if you lose the turn by moving you first guy, usually you have messed up somehow. Thus you start stacking benefits and holding them rerolls close to your chest. But sometimes, a miniature just doesn't want to win. Strangely enough, I just get angry at minis, not the game.
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Aug 14, 2017 12:21
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It looks like the new Necromunda figures are standing on the 25mm Industrial bases that were missing from the initial release. And they look infinitely better than the ugly-rear end second edition sculpts after it moved to SG.
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Aug 14, 2017 12:34
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I will definitely agree that Blood Bowl might not be for everyone, but I think you are missing the fact that Blood Bowl is interesting. The thrill of a very poorly conceived play with almost no chance of working succeeding against your world crushing Orc opponents can't be beat. Embracing the horrific bad luck is just part of the fun. Interesting and "very low odds play coming off" are practically diametrically opposed. I don't hate blood bowl, I played a bunch of the TT version, a bunch of fumbbl (the best format), and some of the horrifically annoying videogame. But while rolling with the punches is a skill you need to have, games can still be one sided and crippling for league progression through no fault of the player. I mean sure everyone gets bad luck but it's not actually that fun to be losing dudes and having short turns while your opponent runs all over you, which can happen thanks to the mechanics making a numerical advantage absolutely brutal in certain match ups. It was hugely popular for so long because, like Epic, it was excellent for its time, was produced and promoted by the biggest name in the business, and had a low barrier to entry.
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Aug 14, 2017 12:49
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I dunno, I can't say I'm the last player in my league because of simply bad roles. Anyways, hype for Necromunda. Hope the campaign mechanics don't suck.
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Aug 14, 2017 13:20
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Oh, I'm definitely not trying to claim it's entirely random, that player skill and experience doesn't matter, and that the last player is only there because of bad luck.
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Aug 14, 2017 13:45
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Yay for NM! Boo for it being the same two gangs I already own! 
berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 14:52
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It looked like it was only the goliaths that were on the 32mm bases.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:56
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This is an excellent theme for a punk rock girl gang.
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Aug 14, 2017 18:02
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Agreed on the Goliath bases.
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Aug 14, 2017 20:19
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I will definitely agree that Blood Bowl might not be for everyone, but I think you are missing the fact that Blood Bowl is interesting. The thrill of a very poorly conceived play with almost no chance of working succeeding against your world crushing Orc opponents can't be beat. Embracing the horrific bad luck is just part of the fun. I had this in my league match game last night. No match report because we were really pushed for time. I was playing my Necro against the top-of-the-conference Wood Elves. Important match, as if I lost then it's very unlikely I'd qualify for the play-offs. I kicked, and he played a slow game trying to stall against the 2-1 grind. He eventually scored in turn 7, giving me two turns to score. I get the ball to a Werewolf 10 squares from the end zone, and assemble a cage around him. His turn, he puts up a staggered wall in front, and blitzes one corner of my cage. So, to stop the game from being a draw, I have to score, with some horrible dice rolls ahead. I blitz one part of his wall out of the way with my other Wolf, and then: 3+ Dodge out of a TZ, move some spaces, 4+ dodge into a TZ with 3+ dodge out of it, move and Go For It twice. AG3 isn't good at dodging, and I ate a reroll in there somewhere - but it was a clutch play that meant the game was still interesting in the second half! Final score was 2-1 to me, meaning I'm not second in the conference and in a good position for qualifying!
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Aug 15, 2017 11:57
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glitchkrieg posted:I had this in my league match game last night. No match report because we were really pushed for time. 
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Aug 15, 2017 12:44
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glitchkrieg posted:I had this in my league match game last night. No match report because we were really pushed for time. This is rad. Are you playing at WHGG? I played last night and had a storming result, 4-0 with my 'Zons against an Orc team. I almost felt bad by the end...
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Aug 15, 2017 21:45
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