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Hiro Protagonist posted:Would this be a good place to talk about my recent issues with doubt? Or would that be weird? Talk about it all you need to. We're happy to listen.
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Aug 13, 2017 23:15
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Thanks. I'm in a Master's program for Religious Studies and recently one of my professors had this long rant about how Paul never mentioned the resurrection, so his interpretation is that it never happened and that the disciples, in response, searched for and eventually discovered Old Testament texts that confirmed a self-sacrificing, meek Messiah and developed it into the concept of the Son of God. When I said why even believe if that's his opinion, he said, "God can work in mysterious ways," and that this was the way God wanted to reveal His truth to us. I didn't say it, but I definitely thought it was a poor response. I've never been very orthodox in my beliefs, had kind of always wondered about the whole "Son of God" thing, and I'm out right studying in my program because I find value in many religious perspectives, but that definitely shook me. I don't know how I should take it.
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Aug 14, 2017 00:28
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Hiro Protagonist posted:Thanks. I'm in a Master's program for Religious Studies and recently one of my professors had this long rant about how Paul never mentioned the resurrection, so his interpretation is that it never happened and that the disciples, in response, searched for and eventually discovered Old Testament texts that confirmed a self-sacrificing, meek Messiah and developed it into the concept of the Son of God. When I said why even believe if that's his opinion, he said, "God can work in mysterious ways," and that this was the way God wanted to reveal His truth to us. I didn't say it, but I definitely thought it was a poor response. I've never been very orthodox in my beliefs, had kind of always wondered about the whole "Son of God" thing, and I'm out right studying in my program because I find value in many religious perspectives, but that definitely shook me. I don't know how I should take it. Is he asserting that Paul didn't write Corinthians? Because 1 Corinthians 15:12-20 posted:But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. Deteriorata fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 00:42
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He honestly might have. I didn't think to raise that. It was a weird moment. He was a guest professor, and the other professor seemed puzzled. At the same time, it is kind of surprising if that's the only direct reference to the Resurrection in the Epistles. I mean, given the importance that has been placed on it and it's part in the Biblical Narrative, you would expect it would come up more, especially if Paul is trying to bolster the faith of other communities.
Hiro Protagonist fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Aug 14, 2017 |
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Aug 14, 2017 02:53
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Hiro Protagonist posted:He honestly might have. I didn't think to raise that. It was a weird moment. He was a guest professor, and the other professor seemed puzzled. At the same time, it is kind of surprising if that's the only direct reference to the Resurrection in the Epistles. I mean, given the importance that has been placed on it and it's part in the Biblical Narrative, you would expect it would come up more, especially if Paul is trying to bolster the faith of other communities. For someone in a Master's program in Religious Studies, you seem awfully ignorant of the Bible.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:12
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I'm in interreligious studies. I've honestly done more work with the Shaivism and Mahayana Buddhism than the Epistles lately, just with introductory classes and such, so yeah, I'm a bit out of practice, I'll admit.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:28
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Hiro Protagonist posted:I'm in interreligious studies. I've honestly done more work with the Shaivism and Mahayana Buddhism than the Epistles lately, just with introductory classes and such, so yeah, I'm a bit out of practice, I'll admit.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:31
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Hiro Protagonist posted:Thanks. I'm in a Master's program for Religious Studies and recently one of my professors had this long rant about how Paul never mentioned the resurrection, so his interpretation is that it never happened and that the disciples, in response, searched for and eventually discovered Old Testament texts that confirmed a self-sacrificing, meek Messiah and developed it into the concept of the Son of God. When I said why even believe if that's his opinion, he said, "God can work in mysterious ways," and that this was the way God wanted to reveal His truth to us. I didn't say it, but I definitely thought it was a poor response. I've never been very orthodox in my beliefs, had kind of always wondered about the whole "Son of God" thing, and I'm out right studying in my program because I find value in many religious perspectives, but that definitely shook me. I don't know how I should take it. Howdy and welcome, Hiro. I come at the gospel from a different position than I think your professor does. I'm not interested in puzzling out the historicity of the Jesus story or any of its specific parts. I don't believe anyone can give me an answer that's going to satisfy all doubts and answer all riddles. But what I can do is read the Jesus story (specifically its canonical books, in this situation) and come to a conclusion about the merits of its message (or Word, or Logos, or Dao). And the message I have gathered from the Jesus story is that love will save us from all doom. It can save us from the doom of sin, our own and the ones that others trespass against us. It can save us from the doom of death, our own mortality or the impending heat death of the universe and everything in between. I'm interested primarily in experimenting with the hypothesis of love, which has to be done in faith and action beyond interpretation and lecturing. It's of little importance to me what a professor thinks about the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. It's of ultimate importance to me if the professor can put the total well-being of the student in front of the professor's professional ambitions.
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Aug 14, 2017 03:37
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Deteriorata posted:For someone in a Master's program in Religious Studies, you seem awfully ignorant of the Bible. you have no idea how easy it is to both get and undergrad degree in theology and religious studies and a master's degree in theology without taking more than maybe five biblical studies classes in six or seven years. ESPECIALLY if you're not specializing in theology/christian studies
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Aug 14, 2017 04:47
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Deteriorata posted:The Resurrection is mentioned in every Pauline epistle except three - 2 Thessalonians, Titus, Philemon. The notion that Paul ignores it is silly. And it should be noted that of those epistles, only Philemon is generally agreed to be authentically Pauline. 2 Thessalonians is heavily disputed, and Titus is considered pseudepigraphic.
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Aug 14, 2017 05:00
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There's (some) contention in scholarly circles over whether Paul believed in a physical resurrection or a spiritual resurrection. If the professor wasn't familiar with controversies in NT studies, he could have picked up on, e.g. John Dominic Crossan saying that Paul didn't believe in a physical resurrection and ignored the broader context of the debate.
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Aug 14, 2017 17:33
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one of my favorite saints, who has answered several of my prayers and hopefully will continue to do so, has been mentioned on twitter https://twitter.com/medievalpoc/status/897122421353918464 sometimes it's a good day
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Aug 14, 2017 20:32
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The Phlegmatist posted:There's (some) contention in scholarly circles over whether Paul believed in a physical resurrection or a spiritual resurrection. If the professor wasn't familiar with controversies in NT studies, he could have picked up on, e.g. John Dominic Crossan saying that Paul didn't believe in a physical resurrection and ignored the broader context of the debate.
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Aug 14, 2017 20:48
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isn't medieval poc a really bad historian? or is that like some alt right smear campaign? it's so hard to keep up these days
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Aug 14, 2017 21:51
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Senju Kannon posted:isn't medieval poc a really bad historian? or is that like some alt right smear campaign? she's just sloppy about it
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Aug 14, 2017 22:15
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that seems like an unfortunate trait for someone specifically trying to counter racist accounts of european history
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Aug 14, 2017 22:58
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Speculative can of worms theory - Augustine's relative lack of importance in the Eastern Chrch is entirely attributable to the fact that he was (quite possibly) black.
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Aug 14, 2017 23:01
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Speculative can of worms theory - Augustine's relative lack of importance in the Eastern Chrch is entirely attributable to the fact that he was (quite possibly) black.
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Aug 14, 2017 23:16
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HEY GAIL posted:i thought he was what we would now call a berber It's possible. Being from fourth century Carthage, it's likely that he was one or several shades darker than the usual depiction, but there isn't really any evidence to say for certain.
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Aug 14, 2017 23:34
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the question is "would he be served at a white's only lunch counter in alabama during jim crow" because race is a category coercively placed on someone, not something you opt into
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Aug 14, 2017 23:51
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Hey guys, I wasn't going to post about this, but my friend needs all the grace he can get. Long story short, a good friend of mine has terminal cancer. This guy, who has been a better uncle to me than any of my blood uncles, has been given only a few months left. He had to tell his five children, all less than 12, that he will not be with them much longer. He has lost mobility in his legs. I have been praying for St. Charbel's intercession. Please pray for my uncle, Jim A. St Charbel, pray for us. Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Aug 15, 2017 |
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Aug 15, 2017 00:09
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Happy Assumption to my fellow Papists! Today's gospel contained the Magnificat, and it was really comforting to hear such a joyful proclamation of the justice of God, especially after this past weekend.
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Aug 16, 2017 02:10
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St. Michael the Archangel and St. Maximillian Kolbe have been on my list since Charlottesville. Who else makes the anti-fascism intercession list?
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Aug 16, 2017 02:37
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Prayers would be appreciated for this coming weekend, too. The cheetoh golem is throwing even more gas on the fire and there are more marches and rallies scheduled various places this weekend. One not too far from me, and I had been thinking about going to counter-protest. I am now seriously reconsidering for fear for my safety - I am genuinely afraid more people are going to die.
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Aug 16, 2017 03:16
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Pershing posted:St. Michael the Archangel and St. Maximillian Kolbe have been on my list since Charlottesville. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Skobtsova Alexander of Munich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Schmorell Maurice Moses the Black
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Aug 16, 2017 03:36
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Pershing posted:St. Michael the Archangel and St. Maximillian Kolbe have been on my list since Charlottesville. We have a local who fits the bill: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Mayer Arguably also the Chinese martyrs of the boxer rebellion, who were killed by a xenophobic mob movement.
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Aug 16, 2017 05:36
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I have been in a lot of scuffles with police and fascists, and I made a sort of riot 101 post over in the left wing thread, for people who have decided to get closer with the enemy. Take a look, see if it helps you.
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Aug 16, 2017 06:17
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Cythereal posted:Prayers would be appreciated for this coming weekend, too. The cheetoh golem is throwing even more gas on the fire and there are more marches and rallies scheduled various places this weekend. One not too far from me, and I had been thinking about going to counter-protest. I am now seriously reconsidering for fear for my safety - I am genuinely afraid more people are going to die. I'm glad to pray for you. In every situation, you are looked upon by the Lord. In peace time and crisis time, be as wise as a serpent but as innocent as a dove. Make strong bonds with good people and look out for one another, especially the one that's more vulnerable than you.
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Aug 16, 2017 06:41
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There are no words that can help in this situation Thirteen, but I hope that your Better Uncle recovers. And yeah, now more than ever we need to look to both hope and to make sure that the Nazi's don't win.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:18
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Caufman posted:I'm glad to pray for you. In every situation, you are looked upon by the Lord. In peace time and crisis time, be as wise as a serpent but as innocent as a dove. And UF has canceled the event.  Still probably going to be a ruckus, but I'm feeling much better now. Thanks.
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Aug 16, 2017 14:34
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Aug 17, 2017 04:41
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I am all three columns in every row, making me simultaneously very close and extremely remote to God. You know, like most people.
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Aug 17, 2017 04:45
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I can't wait for the Earth/Mars schism.
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Aug 17, 2017 05:36
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I couldn't help but laugh out loud when I reached the second last row.
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Aug 17, 2017 18:21
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out of curiosity, what's the short response for romans 13 from an anarchist perspective? preferably one that's not just 'ignore Paul'
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Aug 17, 2017 23:55
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StashAugustine posted:out of curiosity, what's the short response for romans 13 from an anarchist perspective? preferably one that's not just 'ignore Paul' I don't know about anarchists specifically but sometimes I see this read to be a situational response to Paul having both Jews and gentiles in his church -- any sort of Jewish revolt against Roman government would cause a schism and cause the authorities to go after his church. Seems like it would fit that perspective. In any case I don't think most Christians endorse complete political quietism besides Quakers.
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Aug 18, 2017 01:37
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For me, it's important to remember that Paul himself would eventually be executed; so obedience to the government is never totally absolute, even for him.
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Aug 18, 2017 03:54
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Also, when Romans was written Christians were already being persecuted as enemies of the state; Chapter 13 is essentially a caution to keep their heads down and not give the authorities any excuses.
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Aug 18, 2017 04:05
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I'm an anarchist( baby!), though I'm not entirely sure why you would need an anarchist critique of romans? I'll be happy to try if you still need one. If you're talking about a specifically christian and anarchist analysis, I would ask the guys at http://www.catholicworker.org they would probably be happy to help you.
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Aug 18, 2017 09:46
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StashAugustine posted:out of curiosity, what's the short response for romans 13 from an anarchist perspective? preferably one that's not just 'ignore Paul' Putting on my best anarchist hat, I'd say that Paul and I have the same appreciation for the importance of peace and justice. We both recognize this comes from good governance. Where we differ is where we think the authority should lie. If I were an early 21st century anarchist, I would believe that voluntary self-governance is the ideal, if not best, approach to good governance. Paul, a 1st century Roman citizen and a Jew, wrote simply that it's the state's responsibility to keep order in their jurisdictions. For an unknown reason, he did not address the prospect of self-governance. But both I the anarchist and Paul the citizen have to acknowledge a common, unfortunate reality: experiments in both self-governance and state governance have failed our standards. Anyone can lose the mandate of Heaven, it seems. I can see it being one of those things to which there is a season: a time to self-govern, a time to be governed. However, Paul's last statement affirms our common goal: love is the fulfillment of the law. The reason to follow rules, self-made or compulsory, is to maximize our compassion. Let that be the measure of how well someone governs.
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Aug 18, 2017 10:22
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