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Remember to tear down the Yankee road signs and put up Dixie ones as well
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Aug 16, 2017 02:06
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Enjoy posted:Remember to tear down the Yankee road signs and put up Dixie ones as well Literally just coming to post this old shot from one of my games: 
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Aug 16, 2017 02:09
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RabidWeasel posted:It is possible to overdo it though, like in Path of Exile where the concept of a "simple, normal playthrough" doesn't exist, because every character is a Frankenstein's Monster made out of at least half a dozen different systems intersecting and the game is designed around the idea that you will be actively attempting to break it as hard as you can all the time. :thatsparadox: 
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Aug 16, 2017 02:27
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Stairmaster posted:i need a lovely mspaint drawing proof of concept before i can condone this idea  The central traits under Westernization are locked when you Westernize, and of course predefined for Western countries. Western states have a few predefined post-Napoleonic traits in the outer circle, while non-Western states have predefined traits in the central circle. You can Westernize when you've unlocked the prerequisites for 3 out of 8 (neighboring) outer slices. These are merely your entry points into the sphere grid though, you can eventually start moving laterally if you want to, and even abandon some traits at a later point if you want to transform your society. I think the way I've ordered the overall headers makes sense, in terms of historical precedents. Tsarist Russia would for example start out with traits in the Autocratic, Centralized and Militarist group, where the most compatible path to democratization would be through Individualist, while a communist revolution might settle for the easy to grab Collectivist traits while maintaining all the other traits that defined both Tsarist Russia and the USSR. Similarly, centralizing the US would require passing through Militarist, which is pretty inline with its history.
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Aug 16, 2017 12:20
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yo can I westernize on a low budget? I can only afford 5 links, all those guides wank off with their mirrored regents and 6 link armies
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Aug 16, 2017 13:23
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Goa Tse-tung posted:yo can I westernize on a low budget? I can only afford 5 links, all those guides wank off with their mirrored regents and 6 link armies ez but a bit unintuitive out of left field (heh): go Zerker, path east to VP, done with some cast when damage taken merchants
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Aug 16, 2017 13:25
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Goa Tse-tung posted:yo can I westernize on a low budget? I can only afford 5 links, all those guides wank off with their mirrored regents and 6 link armies yes you can complete the campaign and even conquer most of the alternate worlds through the map device with a 5 link army on most builds. you'll hit a wall at uber ming tho probably and don't even ask about "the modder" he's the final boss for a reason
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Aug 16, 2017 16:45
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DrSunshine posted:What, you mean like in Path of Exile?? I like it! That's elegant and awesome. It gives some constraint and focus so you can do gamelike things, but doesn't pigeonhole players in a top-down fashion. I was thinking about Final Fantasy X (the updated version where the sphere grid isn't almost completely linear) but Path of Exile has a good sphere grid too. I'm a weirdo who liked the sliders in EU3 but sphere grids are kind of similar to that where it's fun to fiddle around with different configurations and imagine what it's supposed to represent, and they don't look like you're playing an old Windows program. Also, it opens up all sorts of terrible new possibilities like: Internet debates over the precise number of nodes that should separate the starting points for Macedonia and Albania Cordoning off entire continents behind Westernization lock nodes Making parts of the grid look like silly symbols and national stereotypes (make the Chinese area look like a big dragon or something)
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Aug 16, 2017 17:30
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As long as I'm able to take Venice through Auron's part of the sphere grid I'll be happy.
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Aug 16, 2017 22:40
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YF-23 posted:As long as I'm able to take Venice through Auron's part of the sphere grid I'll be happy. Take a short detour at the start to pick up Steal. It's worth it for almost every nation
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Aug 16, 2017 22:47
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I have no idea what this entire page has been talking about. Sphere grids? What? Links? Final Fantasy stuff?
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Aug 16, 2017 23:07
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Baronjutter posted:I have no idea what this entire page has been talking about. Sphere grids? What? Links? Final Fantasy stuff? a sphere grid is when you take a slightly branched skill tree and change the presentation by replacing all straight lines with curves
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Aug 16, 2017 23:13
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Something like the endless space 2 leader skills?
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Aug 16, 2017 23:15
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Aha!!  I'm just messin' with you. I think it's a cool idea. 
DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 23:17
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No that's a pretty poor implementation of a sphere grid, something like Path of Exile: https://poeplanner.com/ Or from Final Fantasy http://imgur.com/gallery/F5L0nkJ
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Aug 16, 2017 23:18
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Ham Sandwiches posted:No that's a pretty poor implementation of a sphere grid, something like Path of Exile: Jesus gently caress, I thought the Endless Space 2 tech sphere thing was bad. How do people make heads or tails of that? What's the point of having that many options in some sort of... fighty game?
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Aug 16, 2017 23:21
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Baronjutter posted:Jesus gently caress, I thought the Endless Space 2 tech sphere thing was bad. How do people make heads or tails of that? What's the point of having that many options in some sort of... fighty game? It looks overwhelming at first but it provdes a nice mix of 'guided choices'. Most tech trees have an issue of being either very railroady (civ 5 has a whopping two paths at some points) or way too open (civ BE lets you blitz to way too strong stuff too early) Sphere Grids, out of the games that I've played, seem to do the best job of presenting a bunch of little changes that are both significant and deterministic. Each pickup you get takes you further down a path and locks you into those choices, with opportunities to change direction at significant points. It looks like a lot of fiddle but when you play with those systems you get a bunch of cool choices and picks to make that have an impact, while hitting a nice mix of letting the pickups be strong because they're gated, but not in a very railroady way
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Aug 16, 2017 23:23
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This is the Path of Exile skill tree, it's the same for every character class (there are 7) but each of them starts in a different location, with only minor differences in starting stats. Thus you can either stay near your starting location for a thematic build or go off to different areas to take skills that synergise with one another in interesting ways.  efb Enjoy fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Aug 16, 2017 |
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Aug 16, 2017 23:27
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Prav posted:a sphere grid is when you take a slightly branched skill tree and change the presentation by replacing all straight lines with curves Usually a key distinction between sphere grids etc. and skill trees is that your starting position on a sphere grid is meaningful and you will have various different starting points. Baronjutter posted:Jesus gently caress, I thought the Endless Space 2 tech sphere thing was bad. How do people make heads or tails of that? What's the point of having that many options in some sort of... fighty game? In PoE at least most of the points are nearly empty baseline stats / hp / damage nodes. They're filler between various super cool meaningful upgrades which might just be a huge damage increase or give a unique ability or something. You can go full sperg and try and calculate a highly efficient build or you can just aim for stuff that sounds cool.
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Aug 16, 2017 23:33
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poe's sphere grid looks like a mess but in practice it's like eu4's idea groups - picking one idea leads you naturally toward other similar stuff that usually synergizes well together - except some idea groups are closer to each other than others and there's no need to take the full group if parts of it don't interest you. so a nation (say, venice) might start near plutocratic and be able to take those ideas quite early while aristocratic is on the other side of the grid and would require more points to get to for that nation. poland might start on the opposite side.
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Aug 16, 2017 23:45
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Jazerus posted:poe's sphere grid looks like a mess but in practice it's like eu4's idea groups - picking one idea leads you naturally toward other similar stuff that usually synergizes well together - except some idea groups are closer to each other than others and there's no need to take the full group if parts of it don't interest you. so a nation (say, venice) might start near plutocratic and be able to take those ideas quite early while aristocratic is on the other side of the grid and would require more points to get to for that nation. poland might start on the opposite side. Yeah, having played Path of Exile, I think this is the reason why I think it'd really fit with Paradox's style and forges a happy medium between railroading and making things so open that your choice of nation doesn't matter at all in the end. Starting off somewhere else in the "idea grid" would give nations just enough texture to make them stand out while giving players the option to go totally ahistorical -- which is one of the attractions of Grand Strategy.
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Aug 17, 2017 00:21
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Baronjutter posted:Jesus gently caress, I thought the Endless Space 2 tech sphere thing was bad. How do people make heads or tails of that? What's the point of having that many options in some sort of... fighty game? So in Final Fantasy X's sphere grid, each character starts on a specific position. Level ups in that game translate into "movement points" on the sphere grid, and you can activate, for that character, any node they are adjacent to. Not every node is adjacent to every other node near it - the grid is segmented off that way, and by blocking some paths that exist (you earn items throughout the game that allow you to open up those blocked paths). This results in the grid having pretty clear paths each character is supposed to take. For instance, Yuna is the white mage of that game. Her starting position sets her on a clear path that has healing spells, magic stat upgrades and so on. Auron is the tank character, and his section has ludicrous amounts of HP and strength nodes. If a player is determined enough, they can take Yuna and move her into Auron's section of the sphere grid and make her the strongest physical attacker on the party. It's a system that gives the player a good amount of agency on how to develop their characters, and only really "forces" certain paths by making them the path of least resistance instead of penalising everything else.
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Aug 17, 2017 00:56
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Baronjutter posted:Jesus gently caress, I thought the Endless Space 2 tech sphere thing was bad. How do people make heads or tails of that? What's the point of having that many options in some sort of... fighty game?
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Aug 17, 2017 03:31
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A sphere grid doesn't have to be as insane as PoE's. FF10's sphere grid is smaller (though still quite large). I imagine a hypothetical grand strategy sphere grid would be a fair bit smaller. In FF10 you make those decisions over the course of 60+ hours after all, while you may want a Vicky 3 campaign to only last 15-20 hours, and you may not want players to spend much time in the grid. The point of a sphere grid is that it's a deeply interlocking web with many paths to any one objective (on top of different start points like already discussed). It would create a good deal of flexibility in the direction you take your country. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 04:25
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In a fit of whimsy, Victoria III's sphere grid turns out to be an abstract version of the same map of the world you've been staring at for the rest of the game!
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Aug 17, 2017 06:19
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DrSunshine posted:In a fit of whimsy, Victoria III's sphere grid turns out to be an abstract version of the same map of the world you've been staring at for the rest of the game! whoa
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Aug 17, 2017 06:22
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i'm on board with this now
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Aug 17, 2017 06:22
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DrSunshine posted:In a fit of whimsy, Victoria III's sphere grid turns out to be an abstract version of the same map of the world you've been staring at for the rest of the game! this is insanely good
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Aug 17, 2017 07:33
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Japan is centrally positioned on the sphere grid like Kimahri to encourage pathing into other countries' areas, to represent Japan's enthusiastic acceptance of Western reforms
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Aug 17, 2017 07:40
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DrSunshine posted:Aha!!   Looking at that, I realized I excluded religion-science from my suggestion. Time to make a true sphere grid, not the circle grids calling themselves sphere grids.  DrSunshine posted:Yeah, having played Path of Exile, I think this is the reason why I think it'd really fit with Paradox's style and forges a happy medium between railroading and making things so open that your choice of nation doesn't matter at all in the end. Starting off somewhere else in the "idea grid" would give nations just enough texture to make them stand out while giving players the option to go totally ahistorical -- which is one of the attractions of Grand Strategy.
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Aug 17, 2017 08:20
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Just take it all the way and add Meyer-Briggs personality types
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Aug 17, 2017 13:12
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:It's there an Endless Space 2 thread? I haven't seen it but I've been curious about the game. I have a soft spot for the first one because it was not offensively bad like so many other space 4x's have been lately. There's the Endless megathread.
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Aug 17, 2017 13:59
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ZearothK posted:There's the Endless megathread.
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Aug 17, 2017 14:05
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Aug 17, 2017 15:35
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Just take it all the way and add Meyer-Briggs personality types
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Aug 17, 2017 15:58
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I think you mean: and even if the stock grid was fairly simple modders could make the sphere grid monstrosities they always wanted to
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Aug 17, 2017 19:09
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After careful reflection, I'm in favor of the PoE style sphere grid replacing national ideas in EUIV. Paradox, pls fix
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Aug 17, 2017 19:19
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Fintilgin posted:After careful reflection, I'm in favor of the PoE style sphere grid replacing national ideas in EUIV. Yeah I had no idea what I was looking at and thought these were joke posts making fun of some insane jrpg's convoluted skill system but now I'm actually sold.
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Aug 17, 2017 19:55
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Also think of the very many tears of the grognards at something being put in the game which is similar to a popular game of a different genre, thereby making it worse because ________
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Aug 17, 2017 21:12
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RabidWeasel posted:Also think of the very many tears of the grognards at something being put in the game which is similar to a popular game of a different genre, thereby making it worse because ________ *By the next game* Paradox have ruined my ability to feel human after replacing the sphere grid with an oblate spheroid grid!
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Aug 17, 2017 23:04
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