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by the way, im not opposed to groups that use white solidarity to pull ppl up into class consciousness see sig
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Aug 20, 2017 00:29
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rudatron posted:
Wanting to understand your family heritage/lineage is not the same as phrenology or race science. EDIT: Culturally individual European countries weren't even uniform especially going far back in time. It's cool to understand the differences between lowland Scottish clans and highland Scottish clans. Venom Snake has issued a correction as of 00:34 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 00:30
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Al! posted:by the way, im not opposed to groups that use white solidarity to pull ppl up into class consciousness see sig juggalos transcend race
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Aug 20, 2017 00:32
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:juggalos transcend race the juggalo is the mirror of utopia but unfortunately not all of us are so brave as to actually listen to icp on a regular basis
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Aug 20, 2017 00:34
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Al! posted:the juggalo is the mirror of utopia but unfortunately not all of us are so brave as to actually listen to icp on a regular basis Al! posted:the juggalo is the mirror of utopia but unfortunately not all of us are so brave as to actually listen to icp on a regular basis a funhouse mirror from the Dark Carnival 🎪
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Aug 20, 2017 00:37
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To add a pic here's one of my ancestors who served under Joan of Arc fighting the regressive english scum who demanded as flamboyant a tomb as possible.  His crest (The heart being a douglas thing since the 1300's): 
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Aug 20, 2017 00:38
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anglo-teutonic looks like a fuckin drag
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Aug 20, 2017 00:38
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:what's wrong with wanting a link to your historical origins? Venom Snake posted:Wanting to understand your family heritage/lineage is not the same as phrenology or race science. People want meaning, they want self-knowledge, but they lack the ability to measure it, so they grasp for whatever they can, including mythology or pseudoscience. Ancestry and race science are two pseudo-scientific ways of getting it. rudatron has issued a correction as of 00:42 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 00:39
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tired: dividing the working class by race/nationality is regressive wired: embrace your scottish heritage and crush english tory scum for the imperialist royalist dogs they are
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Aug 20, 2017 00:40
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rudatron posted:Ancestry and Race science are two pseudo-scientific ways of getting it. Race science is bullshit to try and justify white supremacy. Ancestry for the purposes of gaining knowledge (read: not using it to justify hierarchy) isn't about any kind of supremacy. 
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Aug 20, 2017 00:45
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it's just extremely stupid.
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Aug 20, 2017 00:49
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Venom Snake posted:tired: dividing the working class by race/nationality is regressive
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Aug 20, 2017 00:53
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rudatron posted:Because it's not your origins, it's the story of people that you just so happen to share lineage to, or dna with. Your story begins the moment you are born, and ends the moment you die (alone). The End. this is solipsistic garbage.
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Aug 20, 2017 00:54
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"i don't see race"
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Aug 20, 2017 00:54
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just to step back from this discussion for a min, it makes me feel v unironically happy that we're rehashing the centuries old commie v anarchist "are extra-class identities bourgeois-constructed barriers to class solidarity or weapons to use against the capitalist state" argument only thru shitposts
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Aug 20, 2017 00:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:what's wrong with wanting a link to your historical origins? it is reactionary.
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Aug 20, 2017 00:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:this is solipsistic garbage. It is literally true and not at all solipsistic.
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Aug 20, 2017 00:58
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thing is anarchists are needed more than communists rn........ hmmm........... any of u guys and gals wanna become anarchists with the hopes that our soc and com comrades will make the reeducation camps kind of fun
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Aug 20, 2017 00:58
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Al! posted:just to step back from this discussion for a min, it makes me feel v unironically happy that we're rehashing the centuries old commie v anarchist "are extra-class identities bourgeois-constructed barriers to class solidarity or weapons to use against the capitalist state" argument Of course you would think that, you have the brain pan of a stagecoach tilter!
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Aug 20, 2017 00:59
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The Kingfish posted:it is reactionary. contextualizing your place in a world historical process is enlightening
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Aug 20, 2017 01:00
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Al! posted:thing is anarchists are needed more than communists rn........ hmmm........... any of u guys and gals wanna become anarchists with the hopes that our soc and com comrades will make the reeducation camps kind of fun
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Aug 20, 2017 01:00
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Al! posted:just to step back from this discussion for a min, it makes me feel v unironically happy that we're rehashing the centuries old commie v anarchist "are extra-class identities bourgeois-constructed barriers to class solidarity or weapons to use against the capitalist state" argument I'd love to read some examples if you have them.
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Aug 20, 2017 01:02
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The Kingfish posted:It is literally true and not at all solipsistic. an individual's origins predate their very conception. it's literally wrong outside of a solipsistic framework
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Aug 20, 2017 01:02
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The Kingfish posted:It is literally true and not at all solipsistic. trying to understand your family history is not the same as trying to take credit for it
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Aug 20, 2017 01:04
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https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/899013255506649089Pener Kropoopkin posted:an individual's origins predate their very conception. it's literally wrong outside of a solipsistic framework that's true but the culture and achievements of one's own ancestors are no more worth celebrating than those of any other historical figures
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Aug 20, 2017 01:06
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:this is solipsistic garbage. if you wanted to say 'I don't like it', you just should have said that.
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Aug 20, 2017 01:06
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Venom Snake posted:tired: dividing the working class by race/nationality is regressive
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Aug 20, 2017 01:07
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:an individual's origins predate their very conception. it's literally wrong outside of a solipsistic framework
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Aug 20, 2017 01:08
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Flavius Belisarius posted:I'd love to read some examples if you have them. Pener Kropoopkin posted:We maintain, moreover, not only that communism is a desirable state of society, but that the growing tendency of modern society is precisely towards communism — free communism — notwithstanding the seemingly contradictory growth of individualism. In the growth of individualism (especially during the last three centuries) we see merely the endeavors of the individual towards emancipating himself from the steadily growing powers of capital and the State. But side by side with this growth we see also, throughout history up to our own times, the latent struggle of the producers of wealth to maintain the partial communism of old, as well as to reintroduce communist principles in a new shape, as soon as favorable conditions permit it. As soon as the communes of the tenth, eleventh, and twelfth centuries were enabled to start their own independent life, they gave a wide extension to work in common, to trade in common, and to a partial consumption in common. All this has disappeared. But the rural commune fights a hard struggle to maintain its old features, and it succeeds in maintaining them in many places of Eastern Europe, Switzerland, and even France and Germany; while new organizations, based on the same principles, never fail to grow up wherever it is possible. Ctrl+F Marx posted:The separate individuals form a class only insofar as they have to carry on a common battle against another class; otherwise they are on hostile terms with each other as competitors. On the other hand, the class in its turn achieves an independent existence over against the individuals, so that the latter find their conditions of existence predestined, and hence have their position in life and their personal development assigned to them by their class, become subsumed under it. This is the same phenomenon as the subjection of the separate individuals to the division of labour and can only be removed by the abolition of private property and of labour itself. We have already indicated several times how this subsuming of individuals under the class brings with it their subjection to all kinds of ideas, etc.
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Aug 20, 2017 01:10
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is this not a well known cleavage between marxists and anarchists or do we bicker out of inherited animosities wait a second wouldnt that be idpol???????
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Aug 20, 2017 01:10
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:an individual's origins predate their very conception. it's literally wrong outside of a solipsistic framework
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Aug 20, 2017 01:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:an individual's origins predate their very conception. it's literally wrong outside of a solipsistic framework Childhood is the only meaningful "origin" of a person. Michael Bayleaf posted:trying to understand your family history is not the same as trying to take credit for it We are talking about identifying with your family history not just understanding it.
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Aug 20, 2017 01:14
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so nobody wants to engage with the texts that this argument comes from???????/ sounds like u guys should all fly a flag with a tinge of black then
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Aug 20, 2017 01:15
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R. Mute posted:it's just extremely stupid. welcome to the majority of human endeavors. The Kingfish posted:Childhood is the only meaningful "origin" of a person. You sound like a fun guy
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Aug 20, 2017 01:17
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rudatron posted:Those origins are arbitrary and not meaningful. It's the act of deriving meaning for nature that characterizes religion and mythology, and ancestry stuff is no different. Those origins are material and the result of world historical processes, which are about as meaningful as things get. rudatron posted:from your use of 'solipsistic', I can tell you don't actually know what the word means Buddy you just used "arbitrary" to describe historical processes, which are anything but. You can't just decide on a personal whim to have Mongolian origins. The notion that an individual's origin begins at the point of birth only makes sense within a solipsistic framework.
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Aug 20, 2017 01:18
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The Kingfish posted:We are talking about identifying with your family history not just understanding it. I doubt anyone here would defend taking your identity from your family history.
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Aug 20, 2017 01:19
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native american talks about the destruction of indigenous cultures and separation from traditional lands woke marxist: well actually,
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Aug 20, 2017 01:22
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The psychological, emotional gratification behind reaction is the promise of a 'guaranteed meaning' for yourself, animated by a cherry-picked and self-serving historiography. This just so happens to be the exact same gratification, behind finding your self 'through your roots'. I also struggle to see your interpretation of 'meaningful' as honest - not everything that is real is meaningful. I ate a burger, I took a poo poo - is there meaning in that? No. It's a 'historical process' but it means nothing. It's the same with your origins. It just happened. The universe is mechanical and uncaring, history itself has no meaning, you write your own history. Deal with it.
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Aug 20, 2017 01:22
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These aren't cspammy pics AT ALL!
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Aug 20, 2017 01:22
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Michael Bayleaf posted:I doubt anyone here would defend taking your identity from your family history. why not? im the son of mormons, of catholics, pioneers, murderers, racists, irish, germans and even if i stretch and grasp a little bit probably even americans and it makes me who i am today but i'd give every scrap of it to wrest the reigns of capital from the bourgeoisie and return it to all people, regardless of identity faith or lifestyle
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Aug 20, 2017 01:23
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