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I can only hope they are hiding in fan rooms. We don't need any more lost brothers and sisters.
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Aug 21, 2017 06:38
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:That's the first O-6 in the chain right? Guess the hurt stops there? Yes, that's the first O-6. I wouldn't be surprised if C7F actual pays for it too. Normally the pain wouldn't roll that high, but who knows this time? That said, if it does roll that high I think there will be a lot of shouting between 3 and 4 stars about whose fault it really is and Aucoin may have a good argument to say it's not him. Though I think a lot is going to depend on the results of this investigation to be honest.
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Aug 21, 2017 06:40
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Christ what a loving mess, what a terrible hosed up mess. I hope heads roll if systemic problems are found.
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Aug 21, 2017 07:01
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Christ what a loving mess, what a terrible hosed up mess. I hope heads roll if systemic problems are found. I should loving hope so. This is the fourth destroyer collision in 7th fleet this year. There needs to be a fundamental shift in how we do business out there, and it's not gonna happen unless a few stars get rolled under the bus.
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Aug 21, 2017 07:08
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From what has been said it's an op tempo thing. We have had insane op tempo since we started having our dicks in every beehive and have not expanded our force to meet the demand, instead it's been increasing for a smaller and smaller force. It is a miracle we've been able to keep it up so long with so few casualties like this. edit : the whole GoP 1000000 ship fleet thing is dumb as hell but if we are going to keep up this kind of poo poo we are going to need it ded fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 07:09
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Being a sitting C7F CO during the poo poo show that has been 2017 has been a very interesting perspective. Granted I'm not in the big boys club in Yokosuka, but I've got my sources and methods. I've got my own view and opinions on that root cause of this rash of tragedies is, but I'll wait until I'm past and opening on this tour and the dust has settled on these investigations before I open up about it. That said, I don't think OPTEMPO is really as big a factor as you guys are thinking.
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Aug 21, 2017 07:18
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Don't worry, I'm sure congress will be asking all sorts of people what they think soon enough.
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Aug 21, 2017 09:10
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Looking at my charts, I have a pretty drat good idea of where the damage is on the McCain. I won't say more because I don't have any more answers than the rest of you, but I'm on the same class of ship and McCain isn't that much older than the FITZ. Our Ombudsman are helping the McCain right now and manning the phones. My crew is in shock, but I think more than anything, we feel helpless. We WANT to do something for them, but we can't jump onboard and take the watch for them like the other Yokosuka ships did for us. At least they were close to Singapore and they made it back under their own power. Small miracles. As for the missing sailors, I hope that they're alright. That's all we can do right now.
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Aug 21, 2017 09:36
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ManMythLegend posted:Being a sitting C7F CO during the poo poo show that has been 2017 has been a very interesting perspective. Granted I'm not in the big boys club in Yokosuka, but I've got my sources and methods. I've got my own view and opinions on that root cause of this rash of tragedies is, but I'll wait until I'm past and opening on this tour and the dust has settled on these investigations before I open up about it. That said, I don't think OPTEMPO is really as big a factor as you guys are thinking. All friendly aviator vs SWO joking aside, I think this is a sign of SWO culture catching up with itself combined with the onerous demands placed on a ship's crew from above that have nothing to do with getting better at driving or fighting a ship. I think the other issue is the is so little time is given to ships between deployments to actually just go out and train. In this respect I sort of agree with you in that its not an OPTEMPO issue really because as an FDNF you are still out there doing the the thing and if you are doing the thing, you should get more proficient at it in theory. Aviation had its own issues in this regard which was the genesis of the NATOPS program followed by CRM (ORM for aviators). We were crashing the poo poo out of airplanes until we got serious about standardization and safety and the class A mishap rates plummeted within a relatively short amount of time.
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Aug 21, 2017 10:01
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I guess i was wrong about the homeport shift, but this was also during a strait transit not just open ocean steaming. I doubt this is as much watchstander complacency as other incidents because they would have had a larger detail including possibly the skipper on the bridge.
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Aug 21, 2017 13:59
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This article has some exterior hull pictures of the damage. USA today article Looks like a wide but not that deep impact, from a pretty shallow angle (guessing the ships were on similar courses).
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Aug 21, 2017 15:17
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Elendil004 posted:This article has some exterior hull pictures of the damage. USA today article Looks like the bow came in on an angle from the back of the destroyer, like it was coming alongside it. So someone cut the other off.
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Aug 21, 2017 15:48
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Another article I read (sorry, didn't save link) said that the Strait of Malacca is especially nasty to navigate because it's so heavily travelled. Do you guys have any thoughts about the Strait? Admiral John Richardson just called for a Fleet-wide review.
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Aug 21, 2017 17:00
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I thought the odds of running into another ship was supremely low? How is this a reoccurring theme now?
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Aug 21, 2017 17:30
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Glenn Quebec posted:I thought the odds of running into another ship was supremely low? How is this a reoccurring theme now? Well, the more recent one happened in an area where there were a fuckton of ships around, so it's not like it was two ships meeting by chance in the middle of the ocean.
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Aug 21, 2017 17:32
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Glenn Quebec posted:I thought the odds of running into another ship was supremely low? How is this a reoccurring theme now? In open ocean yes. In a crowded strait, less so. Either way it's bad seamanship.
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Aug 21, 2017 18:01
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Another article I read (sorry, didn't save link) said that the Strait of Malacca is especially nasty to navigate because it's so heavily travelled. Do you guys have any thoughts about the Strait? I've done it a few times and twice there were two relatively close calls, once by a Chinese flagged freighter that went out of its way to be a dick. Boon fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Aug 22, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 19:29
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Another article I read (sorry, didn't save link) said that the Strait of Malacca is especially nasty to navigate because it's so heavily travelled. Do you guys have any thoughts about the Strait?
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Aug 21, 2017 20:28
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DinosaurWarfare posted:you just need to see it. sage advice for everyone
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Aug 21, 2017 20:45
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Straight of Malacca is madness. Not as bad as a place but probably the second worst I've seen. Heading toward Singapore at night time you can see the thousands of lights on all the tankers chilling out south of the port.
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Aug 21, 2017 21:10
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It's busy.
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Aug 21, 2017 21:17
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Surely one of you SWOs could write a simple python script that predicts collisions and make millions selling it to the government.
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Aug 21, 2017 21:56
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Absolutely. My tacco thought I was just being an rear end when I told him I wouldn't do a surface plot of that. I called him back to look at my scope and he agreed. Would have locked up the computer before I even got a quarter done marking contacts. Busiest part of the ocean I've ever seen
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Aug 21, 2017 21:57
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Sir Lucius posted:Surely one of you SWOs could write a simple python script that predicts collisions and make millions selling it to the government. The thing is, this is likely just an aberration, but poo poo happens in a busy strait. This is different than what happened on the fitz. There was a full detail on watch. The captain was probably in the pilothouse or in routine contact with it. I mean this is one of the busiest places on the planet with regards to shipping traffic and while it is somewhat coordinated it is still chaos. There was at least one briefing specifically for this transit and there was a special watch detail manned specifically for it. I really wanna see the report.
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Aug 21, 2017 22:13
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This isn't the midnight watch team dicking around for an hour on the wrong bridge wing (no clue if that's what actually happened on the fitz). They'll have a specific watchbill with good watchstanders in place for these transits. They can take a long god damned time and the captain is usually glued to the pilothouse the entire time with his rear end in a top hat puckered.
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Aug 21, 2017 22:16
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LordNad posted:Absolutely. My tacco thought I was just being an rear end when I told him I wouldn't do a surface plot of that. I called him back to look at my scope and he agreed. Would have locked up the computer before I even got a quarter done marking contacts. Busiest part of the ocean I've ever seen 
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Aug 21, 2017 22:59
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Is there no way to simulate a busy straight? It's not like you're tracking a swarm of bees, I thought ships moved plenty slow to know when you're going to crash. Keep in mind I was in the navy for six years and never even looked at a ship. I just find it hard to believe we can get to a point where there is "too much poo poo to track" with the technology we have today. EDIT: ^^^ I guess it's a little bit like bees.
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Aug 21, 2017 23:01
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This is 10 year old data but there's an average of 10 collisions per year in the strait and traffic has only increased since then. http://www.iala-aism.org/wiki/iwrap/index.php/Malacca_Strait_Traffic_Volume_and_Incident_Rates It's busy.
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Aug 21, 2017 23:24
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Sir Lucius posted:Is there no way to simulate a busy straight? It's not like you're tracking a swarm of bees, I thought ships moved plenty slow to know when you're going to crash. There's just so much stuff going on, you basically go into information overload. I'd bet a sandwich that the OOW (Or whoever does the actual conning on a navy boat) was concentrating on another radar target. In theory you could track every ship, but at some point even the collision alarm is useless - it goes off every other minute. You need a really good watch team and good BRM; the bottleneck is in the officer's brain, and it's not easily-automated decision making.
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Aug 21, 2017 23:55
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Now imagine trying to manually mark each contact in that swarm. After a certain point, the lag between marking your scope and the contact appearing is 5-15 seconds and only getting worse until everyone's station locks up.
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Aug 22, 2017 00:15
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Sir Lucius posted:Surely one of you SWOs could write a simple python script that predicts collisions and make millions selling it to the government. Still depends on Furuno and other stuff. The resolution is only so accurate and depends on a lot of people doing manual observation and updating inside of the horizon. There are definitely prediction algorithms in place already. Echoing MML's thoughts on the Mccain collision. Something weird is in play and its been bugging me all day. Everything is very vague and there's only like one PR announcement from C7F and the Chinese announcements that people are quoting from outside of pictures from the ship. As stated previously, it was a straits/libbo transit which means a bunch of people were briefed and on watch.
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Aug 22, 2017 00:41
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LordNad posted:Now imagine trying to manually mark each contact in that swarm. After a certain point, the lag between marking your scope and the contact appearing is 5-15 seconds and only getting worse until everyone's station locks up. I have to imagine the target tracker on a P-3 being roughly the same power as a TI-86 calculator. E-2's had a similar problem until they upgraded the mission computer in the mid-90's (they make RAM in megabytes now? Amazing!).
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Aug 22, 2017 01:14
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Several processors in the F-18 are Motorola 68008s
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Aug 22, 2017 01:22
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I have to imagine the target tracker on a P-3 being roughly the same power as a TI-86 calculator. E-2's had a similar problem until they upgraded the mission computer in the mid-90's (they make RAM in megabytes now? Amazing!). Lots of commercial ship radars will lock the gently caress up at 32 or 64 tracks. ...I sailed on some old-rear end ships.
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Aug 22, 2017 01:24
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it's kind of sad how crypto currency miners have more processing power than multi million dollar war ships.
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Aug 22, 2017 02:55
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Sir Lucius posted:it's kind of sad how crypto currency miners have more processing power than multi million dollar war ships. And do gently caress all with it.
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Aug 22, 2017 02:56
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I have to imagine the target tracker on a P-3 being roughly the same power as a TI-86 calculator. E-2's had a similar problem until they upgraded the mission computer in the mid-90's (they make RAM in megabytes now? Amazing!). The old school computer was the Light Brite because it looked like one and had roughly the processing power of it. The "new" AIP computer is probably marginally more powerful than a Ti-86. It's super easy to freeze from my station. Offline radar can almost track as many contacts. Although to be fair, the 137 is a badass radar for having been made in 94 EDIT: lmfao According to wiki "AN/APY-10 is the latest descendant of a radar family originally developed by Texas Instruments" go go P-8 LordNad fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Aug 22, 2017 |
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Aug 22, 2017 03:00
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The sonar on my boat was the k-rad AN/BQQ-5E system with a dual 8086 RISC floor to overhead towers. It was like a cross between the BSY-1 system and the Q-5C, had analog comps and extra digital trackers like the BSY-1. One of the super rad things we tested on westpac was the AFTAS system which was a unix system running on a 486 and allowed us to process BOTH the TB-16 and TB-29 towed arrays on a single system/display!
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Aug 22, 2017 05:09
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Sir Lucius posted:it's kind of sad how crypto currency miners have more processing power than multi million dollar war ships. A Pentium 4 has more processing power, by several orders of magnitude, than the processors being described here (if I understand correctly). For example the Motorola 68008 is the cheaper version of what's in a TI-89. The TI-89 is 12 MHz. A Pentium 4 gets up to 3 GHz. And that's just clock speed. Hauldren Collider fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Aug 22, 2017 |
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Aug 22, 2017 05:10
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Hauldren Collider posted:A Pentium 4 has more processing power, by several orders of magnitude, than the processors being described here (if I understand correctly). For example the Motorola 68008 is the cheaper version of what's in a TI-89. The TI-89 is 12 MHz. A Pentium 4 gets up to 3 GHz. And that's just clock speed. The 68008 is 8MHZ??? If I remember correctly. I think it was developed in the late 70's or early 80's, and it was slow when it was introduced.
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Aug 22, 2017 05:17
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