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Same goes for aviation (minus the nucs). You live and breathe with the checklist. Everything is standardized in the NATOPS and constant drills. Usually knock out the drills on the way off station. Life sucks for you if you are unqualified. Simulations are taken seriously no matter whether it's proficiency or getting a crew qual. I've seen a radar operator grounded and put on permanent ASDO status because her reaction to breaking standoff in the sim was "It's not that big a deal". She was getting out of the navy but her last 8 months were hell from that incident. ORM and CRM should be navy wide.
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Aug 23, 2017 03:32
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Also from aviation, if you made SWOs spend their first two years studying ships, driving little training ships, and running ship simulators, with a standardized training syllabus, all before they ever set foot on a fleet ship, they'd probably be pretty loving good at driving ships.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:09
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ded posted:The only time we did not do drills was when we were doing special stuff during westpac. And there are some skippers that even run drills during those times. We did drill walkthroughs when we couldn't do them for real. You'd act it out and talk through it. Stopping to make comments or ask questions or to announce that ~thing~ took place and enough time had passed to move on. Unsurprisingly at first nobody took them seriously and they were useless but two months in we were bored enough to do them sarcasticly. Doing them sarcasticly after two months turned us into dramatic stage actors at four months and at the end of that deployment ORSE workup was a cakewalk and we got an Excellent, an E, and a NUC. System works when people participate.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:13
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Also from aviation, if you made SWOs spend their first two years studying ships, driving little training ships, and running ship simulators, with a standardized training syllabus, all before they ever set foot on a fleet ship, they'd probably be pretty loving good at driving ships. Two years is overkill especially since all naval officers are supposed to be doing that kind of stuff their last few years as a MIDN via NROTC or at the academy. Six months or so is about where I think people would need and then time on station to qualify under the supervision of their captain.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:17
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Also the surface world has checklists for everything, evolutions, training, and drills they run through all the time as well. They do talk-through/walk-throughs through full action scenarios all the time in port and underway.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:19
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Mr. Nice! posted:Two years is overkill especially since all naval officers are supposed to be doing that kind of stuff their last few years as a MIDN via NROTC or at the academy. Six months or so is about where I think people would need and then time on station to qualify under the supervision of their captain. Two years would make sure they're really, really good, but yeah, I'm not saying copy the exact timeline outright. And they definitely don't get that training going through OCS; I'd be willing to bet that ROTC also has a wide variety in the level of boat driving that middies get.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:30
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Mr. Nice! posted:Two years is overkill especially since all naval officers are supposed to be doing that kind of stuff their last few years as a MIDN via NROTC or at the academy. Six months or so is about where I think people would need and then time on station to qualify under the supervision of their captain. I went through six semesters of specialized training (Well ok, there were some common core type classes and a lot of cargo related stuff that wouldn't apply to the navy) and 12 months of supervised on the job training before I was even allowed to take a half dozen government certification exams which finally earned me the right to conn a thirty year old bulk carrier that can do all of 12 knots on a good day by myself. Some of my classmates are getting promoted to command ships now, ten years out of school, with about five years of that actually spent underway, and quite frankly that's a bit early. I'm not saying the commercial world is perfect, but the difference in training for what amounts to the same job (When you're navigating anyway) is just staggering. You'd need at least 16 months of classroom and simulator time and six or eight months of time at sea to train a competent watchstander, in my opinion, and that would be a really aggressive condensed program with a ridiculous attrition rate (and the average civilian nautical school curriculum already has something like a 50% drop-out rate). How similar is the Navy's aviation pipeline to what a civilian-trained pilot would be expected to go through?
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Aug 23, 2017 04:40
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Also from aviation, if you made SWOs spend their first two years studying ships, driving little training ships, and running ship simulators, with a standardized training syllabus, all before they ever set foot on a fleet ship, they'd probably be pretty loving good at driving ships. And then they'd jerk off ashore for 6-18 months and forget everything while the wing struggles to keep 3 jets airworthy.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:42
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OCS condenses six semesters of naval science classes that NROTC and academy midshipment take. There isn't an officer in the navy that hasn't either gone through the condensed OCS or through all the theoretical and practical navigation and other courses. That doesn't mean they're any good at it, and it's not like any of these classes are difficult to pass, but the theory is the foundation should be there. In the fleet they're supposed to start small working their way up eventually to conning under heavy supervision while qualifying for OOD and SWO. FDNF doesn't have the luxury of starting small, though, so people out there are probably rubber stamped more than they should be. Note that I'm not saying that training is adequate as it is now. It's not, and a 6 month SWOS to start for SWOs would probably be a good thing.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:45
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Mr. Nice! posted:Two years is overkill especially since all naval officers are supposed to be doing that kind of stuff their last few years as a MIDN via NROTC or at the academy. Six months or so is about where I think people would need and then time on station to qualify under the supervision of their captain. I didn't get any of that poo poo going through OCS. Baby SWOS was an absolute joke and amounted to nothing more than classroom academics and rote memorization (rules of the road). Also, the six semesters of naval science you're referring to that gets fed to OCS classes over the span of several weeks is also done when people are literally running on 3-4 hours of sleep for several weeks on end. It absolutely does not replicate nor replace hands-on training and sure as poo poo doesn't begin to approach a thoughtful, practical training pipeline vis-a-vis prototype, flight school, or BUD/s. buttplug fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Aug 23, 2017 |
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Aug 23, 2017 04:53
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Someone explain what FDNF means please 
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Aug 23, 2017 04:54
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Someone explain what FDNF means please Forward Deployed Naval Forces - ships homeported somewhere other than US. Typically used to talk about ships in Japan. They don't do the same cycle that ships back home do and are instead underway all the god damned time.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:56
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Someone explain what FDNF means please Forward Deployed Naval Forces. Basically, the ships that are homeported abroad in 7th Fleet (i.e. FDNF Yokosuka, FDNF Saseba, etc). It also now refers to FDNF Rota since we've got CRUDES platforms there now too.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:56
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buttplug posted:I didn't get any of that poo poo going through OCS. Baby SWOS was an absolute joke and amounted to nothing more than classroom academics and rote memorization (rules of the road). Also, the six semesters of naval science you're referring to that gets fed to OCS classes over the span of several weeks is also done when people are literally running on 3-4 hours of sleep for several weeks on end. It absolutely does not replicate nor replace hands-on training and sure as poo poo doesn't begin to approach a thoughtful, practical training pipeline vis-a-vis prototype, flight school, or BUD/s. Yeah OCS gets the short end of the stick and are definitely least prepared. I never was intending to imply otherwise other than they technically cover the same curriculum although condensed. There absolutely needs to be a 6 month or so swos prep school because the past 10-15 years of doing it the current way just doesn't work.
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Aug 23, 2017 04:57
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Agreed. The surface Navy has effectively been trying to cut corners and "do more with less" for years. This, unfortunately, is a partial result of that behavior. Anybody who has been in FDNF knows those ships (and their crews) are run absolutely ragged, especially the BMD shooters and especially in the last several years. There is a multitude of factors that contributed to this, but ultimately I think it is rooted in surface Navy culture being historically hosed up, and its systemic issues being magnified upon/exacerbated by C7F OPTEMPO... Waiting to hear MML chime in on this one...
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Aug 23, 2017 05:06
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It's been 10 years since I was FDNF on JSM and we were underway something like 9 months of the year collectively during a year that started in a drydock.
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Aug 23, 2017 05:07
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Mr. Nice! posted:OCS condenses six semesters of naval science classes that NROTC and academy midshipment take. Off the top of my head, and excluding stuff like math and physics, I got: 205 hours of seamanship, engineering and basic poo poo 120 hours of naval architecture Roughly 260 hours of pilotage, ship handling and navigation 110 hours of colreg and practical collision avoidance (soooo much time in the fog in the simulator) 120 hours of celestial navigation 120 hours of intact and damaged stability (which might not be all that relevant to naval operations) 60 hours of radio communications Let's round it up to a thousand hours, and I'm excluding stuff like electricity, management, regulations and cargo handling because I'm assuming those would be replaced by their military equivalent, for another 700-800 hours. I don't see how that can be condensed in 12 weeks, and leave enough time for studying.
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Aug 23, 2017 05:10
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I was there from 2009-2011...was actually supposed to go back but the fuckhead I was replacing got hurt and rolled early. Le sigh.
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Aug 23, 2017 05:10
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So how many admirals have ever been relieved?
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Aug 23, 2017 05:29
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Elendil004 posted:So how many admirals have ever been relieved? For non-criminal stuff? Not many in recent years... We've relieved quite a few in the wake of Fat Leonard for criminal poo poo though...
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Aug 23, 2017 05:42
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buttplug posted:I didn't get any of that poo poo going through OCS. Baby SWOS was an absolute joke and amounted to nothing more than classroom academics and rote memorization (rules of the road). Also, the six semesters of naval science you're referring to that gets fed to OCS classes over the span of several weeks is also done when people are literally running on 3-4 hours of sleep for several weeks on end. It absolutely does not replicate nor replace hands-on training and sure as poo poo doesn't begin to approach a thoughtful, practical training pipeline vis-a-vis prototype, flight school, or BUD/s. I've literally learned more about naval engineering and navigation from Youtube than I did from the handful of sleep-deprived lectures I got at OCS. I think we're vehemently agreeing at this point, but plussing up SWOS to be the rough equivalent of flight school or all that nuke bullshit is like the bare minimum of what should be done. Also I'd really love to take some courses on celestial navigation because there's just so much clever math and engineering that goes into it that I've always admired it.
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Aug 23, 2017 05:52
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I've literally learned more about naval engineering and navigation from Youtube than I did from the handful of sleep-deprived lectures I got at OCS. I think we're vehemently agreeing at this point, but plussing up SWOS to be the rough equivalent of flight school or all that nuke bullshit is like the bare minimum of what should be done. Lmao if GPS goes down on a warship, they would be absolutely hosed because no one on the bridge team knows how to navigate by the stars.
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Aug 23, 2017 06:31
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orange juche posted:Lmao if GPS goes down on a warship, they would be absolutely hosed because no one on the bridge team knows how to navigate by the stars. "GPS is down! Does anyone know how to navigate?" *Crickets* "Find me some nerd loving CT or nuke who does"
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Aug 23, 2017 06:48
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orange juche posted:Lmao if GPS goes down on a warship, they would be absolutely hosed because no one on the bridge team knows how to navigate by the stars.
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Aug 23, 2017 06:53
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Do ships use tacan at all? I know some HAVE a tacan beacon and that the last a is Air. Just wondering if it's ever used to get bearings/do you even have a tall enough antenna?
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Aug 23, 2017 06:56
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LordNad posted:Do ships use tacan at all? Mark your father.
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Aug 23, 2017 07:28
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orange juche posted:Lmao if GPS goes down on a warship, they would be absolutely hosed because no one on the bridge team knows how to navigate by the stars. You're loving kidding me. That's absolutely terrifying. I thought I remembered seeing some bullshit facebook article about why naval officers need to know it and that's why the navy still teaches it, but the thought that it's not a 'working knowledge' type subject scares me in many many ways. Not that I can do it, mind you - but I don't have to, I'm an engineer.
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Aug 23, 2017 10:15
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FrozenVent posted:Off the top of my head, and excluding stuff like math and physics, I got: State maritime academy? Working the lakes?
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Aug 23, 2017 10:50
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Laranzu posted:"GPS is down! Does anyone know how to navigate?" I found a sextant on our "museum shelf" at the NOSC. I took it back to the classroom so QM1 could lead some old-timey instruction. He said "I know what that thing is, but not what it's called or how to use it." Yay naval reserve.
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Aug 23, 2017 11:05
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So the Army still teaches people Land Nav via Map and compass in case GPS fails but the navy is like " Nah, we're good" with billion dollar warships? 
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Aug 23, 2017 11:28
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FrozenVent posted:Off the top of my head, and excluding stuff like math and physics, I got: When I got commissioned, they were cutting us orders directly to ships under the idea that OJT is all we need. 
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Aug 23, 2017 11:44
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McCain's damage may be worse than ours. Again, difficult to say, but based on what I'm hearing, it's really loving bad. The fact that they still haven't been able to find all 10 sailors is heartbreaking. The biggest difference between the two is the FITZ was also hit by the bow of the ship AND the bulb. JSM was hit by the bulb only, but the ship that hit them was 3,000 tonnes heavier than the one that hit us. As for the recent discussion on SWO qualifications, I'm an OCS grad. 2 weeks of Naval History. 2 weeks of Weapons and Engineering. 2 Weeks of Navigation and MoBoards. That's it. And if I put them together? That means that they were taught during the same two week cycle. Apparently they added CelNav since I went, but it's barely a blip on the radar unless you go to the Academy. I could have barely told you the bow from the stern and the port from the starboard. The Stand Down with Rear Admiral Williamson was brutal. It took an aviator to say that he didn't understand why we were watching a powerpoint presentation on BRM (the topic at the time was the SPS/73 Radar) because he couldn't figure out what it had to do with the collisions. That got the enlisted and JOs talking, and we started to stress the lack of formal training on how to actually use radars, how we as combat watchstanders are constantly asked by AZ to get updates on casreps, ship schedules, and other BS and not actually being allowed to STAND THE WATCH. A friend of mine brought up the training cycle again. Rear Admiral Williamson did acknowledge that it's an issue, and then at the end almost gleefully announced that a ship that had just come out of SRA was doing complex exercises. There's no possible way that that ship has any meaningful qualifications. It's great that they can do it, but the strain that that puts on the qualified people is enormous. We tried to stress to him the issues of crew rest and fatigue, but he was visibly annoyed by that at the end. One of the speakers on the podim made a really annoying comment how playing on your phone or XBOX wasn't sleeping. I know that there are sailors that do that instead of sleeping, but it's a minority in comparison to those that just lay there trying to sleep and get a few hours rest before they have to go to work again. Admiral Aucoin also made a very unnecessary and frankly uncalled for comment saying that if you lose steering in a major shipping lane, then there should be a casualty procedure for that. Guess loving what? If that is what happened to the McCain, they do have an emergency procedure in place. Why? Because all CRUDES have one. We don't know what happened. So the fact that he even thought to say that today was honestly disgusting in my opinion.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:01
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The Valley Stared posted:Admiral Aucoin also made a very unnecessary and frankly uncalled for comment saying that if you lose steering in a major shipping lane, then there should be a casualty procedure for that. This is unsurprising to me as at an all hands call here in Sasebo he also admitted to a few thousand Sailors that he didn't know what "PMS" was so...
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Aug 23, 2017 12:06
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Flikken posted:So the Army still teaches people Land Nav via Map and compass in case GPS fails but the navy is like " Nah, we're good" with billion dollar warships? To be fair, land nav is like teaching a kid to point a rifle vaguely downrange and pull the trigger, while celestial navigation would be more akin to manually laying in an artillery piece.
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Aug 23, 2017 12:56
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ManMythLegend posted:This is unsurprising to me as at an all hands call here in Sasebo he also admitted to a few thousand Sailors that he didn't know what "PMS" was so... That's even more dumb then I was imagining him being. Williamson also sounds like an idiot. Maybe there's a trend there.
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Aug 23, 2017 13:30
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joat mon posted:To be fair, land nav is like teaching a kid to point a rifle vaguely downrange and pull the trigger, while celestial navigation would be more akin to manually laying in an artillery piece. I'm not saying teach every sailor how to navigate celestially but maybe just the ones that drive the ships? It wouldn't have helped with the collisions but it just seems prudent to have that knowledge.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:17
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:I found a sextant on our "museum shelf" at the NOSC. I took it back to the classroom so QM1 could lead some old-timey instruction. He said "I know what that thing is, but not what it's called or how to use it." Yay naval reserve. I had to show some CPO selects how to tie a bowline. The majority of the modern navy does not practice even the most basics of seamanship.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:29
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Flikken posted:I'm not saying teach every sailor how to navigate celestially but maybe just the ones that drive the ships? It wouldn't have helped with the collisions but it just seems prudent to have that knowledge. Celestial nav really isn't that important. It's useful when you're out in open ocean and lose sensors, but any place with traffic it's useless. The navy does have a backup when electronic systems go down, and that's paper charts and using your drat eyes. Celestial nav is about figuring out your lattitude using celestial bodies, but it isn't really relevant beyond that. If you lose GPS you don't grab the sextant, you just start taking fixes from whatever other sources you have. If you lose electronic charts, you switch to paper.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:30
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LingcodKilla posted:I had to show some CPO selects how to tie a bowline. Historic "seamanship" is irrelevant mostly in a modern naval aspect. 99% of the chiefs you encounter only ever handled line at all when they were junior sailors on the first ship or two. This is coming from a former deck guy who spliced mooring lines, life lines, and any other assorted linework that was needed. Hell, the fancywork on the flag staff on JSM right now is stuff that I personally did. Even with all that I say it still doesn't matter if a chief can't tie a knot as long as you're not talking to a BMC.
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Aug 23, 2017 14:52
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Mr. Nice! posted:Historic "seamanship" is irrelevant mostly in a modern naval aspect. 99% of the chiefs you encounter only ever handled line at all when they were junior sailors on the first ship or two. This is coming from a former deck guy who spliced mooring lines, life lines, and any other assorted linework that was needed. Hell, the fancywork on the flag staff on JSM right now is stuff that I personally did. I agree, also there's no point teaching how to use an astrolabe and celestial navigation. Sea navigation is so much more complicated than land navigation it's insane. You got wind and tides along side powered ship movement. It's just not a good use of time. But still a bowline...
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Aug 23, 2017 15:21
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