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Eagerly anticipate how the Hand and Elektra will undoubtedly show up and ruin any pretense of good storytelling.
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Aug 23, 2017 23:17
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I want Karen the heroin addicted prostitute personally.
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Aug 24, 2017 00:27
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Actually I just realised doing that plot will just be anither season of Matt going "no I can't let anyone in wah wah" but for a different reason.
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Aug 24, 2017 00:30
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I'm 6 episodes in, but Defenders really isn't doing it for me. Theres far too much exposition, the action isn't anywhere near as fun as I'd hoped and the larger plot itself just isn't flowing properly. I miss Daredevil S1 and Jessica Jones S1. It wasn't perfect but it was far more compelling than everything they've done since.
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Aug 24, 2017 00:35
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I dunno, the episode involving Kingpin in Season 2 was pretty good, including Matt's interaction with him. I could imagine a return to form as long as they stop trying to do things their budget can't do justice to. I mean that's what it all ends up coming to, the Hand as a concept requires money (plenty of stunties and careful choreography) to do it all properly. The crime story of S1 & early S2 is cheap in contrast.
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Aug 24, 2017 00:48
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I don't mind Foggy and Karen's efforts to push Matt away from being Daredevil. He spends most of his time getting beat half to death and selfishly him getting exposed (which seems kind of inevitable the way he's going) would destroy Foggy's life. And since being a costumed vigilante is still a pretty new thing in the MCU and still kind of insane unless you have super powers and work for the government it makes sense for Karen and Foggy to be so opposed to it. Claire and Trish pushing Jessica and Luke to it is a little crazy on their part but at least they're dealing with super tough people who are difficult to kill and are really lost for a purpose in life. But at the same time watching Matt struggle with his friends not wanting him to be DD after it was firmly established in Defenders that he didn't really have a choice and too much was on the line for him to walk away just felt like forcing them into the story. And then Foggy's whole "I brought him the costume to talk him out of it" was just confusing and weird. In general I like that they really worked to involve the sidekicks into the Defenders story and not just make them after thoughts, but after awhile Foggy and Karen probably should have stepped back with Trish and Malcolm if they didn't have a lot to offer beyond the same speeches we got in the first two episodes.
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Aug 24, 2017 00:51
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Cythereal posted:To nobody's surprise... How much genuinely good stuff is there in that arc, especially leaving all the Page stuff out?
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Aug 24, 2017 01:17
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I liked how the Defenders first handles Karen and Foggy. Treating him like an addict is great, especially because it lines up so well with Matt's own reasons for being out there. But then the poo poo hits the fan and they literally have to hide everyone's loved ones in a random police room (drat does that room get a lot of use in this season) just to keep them alive. And Karen is STILL there whining about how Matt's doing it for cheap thrills. If he was punching random street mooks I think that concern is warranted; the scene between Foggy and Matt at the bar is a perfect distillation of their friendship. But now that we've got ninjas and dastardly plots, it would have made way more sense for Karen and Foggy to get on board. Plus, it would've demonstrated just how serious the threat is.
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Aug 24, 2017 02:34
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Finally finished this last night, and it kinda sucked. There were enjoyable parts - Matt, Matt v Danny, Jessica Jones, some of Luke - but on the whole it felt like a CW level production. The Hand was, and I can't understate this, terrible. Just terrible. All of them. Their motivations made no sense. Their operations made no sense. Their idiotic bickering made no sense. Alexandra was a non entity. I don't even know why they gave her lines. loving Bakuto is an original Hand leader? Are you joking my rear end? Watching these numbnuts bumblefucking around leaves me wondering how the organization managed to survive as long as it did. The supporting cast put in probably the weakest performance of these shows to date. As someone already said, Claire seems extraneous. Karen is boring af. Danny's girlfriend is just kinda there and their dialog is almost as bad as his Kung Fu. I guess the fight at the end wasn't too bad. Pretty disappointing overall.
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Aug 24, 2017 03:48
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It also makes like zero sense that Alexandra would be the de facto leader of the Hand in NYC and yet she is totally absent from Daredevil. Like going back to Daredevil from the Defenders, it literally doesn't make sense that she didn't have a role, especially given how involved Stick is. On he bright side, I may end up watching JJones now, after getting to episode 3 and just bailing on the sad sack drama of it all.
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Aug 24, 2017 03:59
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Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are my favourites. JJ is kind of heavy but it has good themes and it's well acted. Unsurprisingly my gf loves Jessica Jones and isn't a comic nerd. JJ also has a tight narrative on par with Daredevil S1. Cage owns narratively up until diamondback (it's still good but I preferred the initial villains) then it kind of falls off a bit. I'm a fan of blaxploitation genre films, rap music, etc and every beat in Cage is spot on and it's just really culturally rich as far as urban black life goes. I can understand why other whiteys didn't get or enjoy Cage, but I thought it owned owned owned. The bit where Cage hits the street to take down some fuckheads and Method Man is giving him a backing track is peak hero television. I read a lengthy analysis of the environments and supporting characters/dialogue and actually learned a lot about NY African American stuff that I didn't know. Really cool show. The fact that it goes below surface level and provides something great for a black audience and something really informative for whiteys like me makes it a pretty stand out show to my mind.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:16
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JBP posted:Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are my favourites. JJ is kind of heavy but it has good themes and it's well acted. Unsurprisingly my gf loves Jessica Jones and isn't a comic nerd. JJ also has a tight narrative on par with Daredevil S1. Cage owns narratively up until diamondback (it's still good but I preferred the initial villains) then it kind of falls off a bit. I think if Diamondback was a compelling villain, LC would have been up there with DD1 in terms of quality. As things stand though, the combination of lame speeches, magic bullets and and a low-budget wrestling costume were a stark contrast to the first half of the show.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:22
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JBP posted:
Do you have a link handy? It sounds interesting.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:24
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enraged_camel posted:I think if Diamondback was a compelling villain, LC would have been up there with DD1 in terms of quality. Diamondback was just this out of nowhere psychopath with no redeeming qualities. The zany suit could have been fine as a way to give someone that wasn't that stupid character a chance to punch on with Luke. The dumb bullets that were meant to add some tension actually diffused it since the whole thing was invincible Luke Cage and community versus politically/structurally invincible villains. It was fine having the people cheer for Luke at the end, but an arc that ended with him beating down mooks and the people getting behind him in an active way to damage or end Cottonmouth/Mariah would have been sweet.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:26
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Bust Rodd posted:It also makes like zero sense that Alexandra would be the de facto leader of the Hand in NYC and yet she is totally absent from Daredevil. Like going back to Daredevil from the Defenders, it literally doesn't make sense that she didn't have a role, especially given how involved Stick is. The Hand are just completely incompetent and have lucked into everything for thousands of years. I still don't know why Nobu needed Fisk to get control of the land/building back, since (do we still need spoiler tags?)they've apparently owned it for hundreds of years. I just went back and checked, apparently it was even in Nobu's name back in the 20s.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:27
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That plot could work for Season 3 in broad strokes. Have Danny put on the costume while Matt is in recovery, Karen tries to figure out who it is but inadvertently tips off Kingpin that the Devil is Matt. I definitely expect more crossover between the shows going forward. I'd be really surprised if between Luke Cage and Iron Fist we got some variation on Heroes For Hire and/or Daughters of the Dragon.
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Aug 24, 2017 04:46
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It really seemed like everyone's powers were whatever the narrative required at that moment. Jessica can casually pull a car or flip a dresser to blockade a door, but random ninjas can take a punch from her and keep on trucking. Conversely, Elektra was NOT (apparently) superhumanly strong, yet was able to knock Luke around or even out cold, a feat previously only accomplished by a shotgun blast directly to the face. The only fight I remember NOT screwing this up was Danny ineffectually swatting at Luke in their first meeting. OK, for a few seconds when incense-weakened Luke gets pissed off and starts just blocking Elektra's swords with his arms I had hope that he'd totally outclass her like he ought to, but nope. You know what would've been cooler? If she actually had to adapt her tactics to who she was fighting. Say Luke totally dominates her in their first meeting because she can't hurt him or even block his punches, so she throws a smokebomb in his face or something and barely escapes. Next time she has something similar to Stick's incense to get him out of the equation so she can punchy-stabby the people who are vulnerable to that sort of thing. Getting this stuff right wouldn't have required a ton of SFX or money, just actually thinking this stuff out for five minutes before each episode.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:03
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Javid posted:It really seemed like everyone's powers were whatever the narrative required at that moment. Jessica can casually pull a car or flip a dresser to blockade a door, but random ninjas can take a punch from her and keep on trucking. Conversely, Elektra was NOT (apparently) superhumanly strong, yet was able to knock Luke around or even out cold, a feat previously only accomplished by a shotgun blast directly to the face. I kind of let that stuff slide since adrenalized people generally get a strength boost. Or it's luck. And she was thumping him back and forth pretty hard and he can still get concussed.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:12
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CubanMissile posted:I wish Stick could have taught Elektra interesting dialog. I'm pretty sure Trish Tilby is an X-Men franchise character. JBP posted:Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are my favourites. JJ is kind of heavy but it has good themes and it's well acted. Unsurprisingly my gf loves Jessica Jones and isn't a comic nerd. JJ also has a tight narrative on par with Daredevil S1. Cage owns narratively up until diamondback (it's still good but I preferred the initial villains) then it kind of falls off a bit. Luke Cage is great, even the Diamondback stuff, which is kind of bonkers but was probably the only way they could think of for Luke to have to go back to jail and still be comic-booky. Bust Rodd posted:It also makes like zero sense that Alexandra would be the de facto leader of the Hand in NYC and yet she is totally absent from Daredevil. Like going back to Daredevil from the Defenders, it literally doesn't make sense that she didn't have a role, especially given how involved Stick is. Comic books escalate. Defenders is really comic booky. Here's a fun game. Take a shot every time someone says "this city," "this fight," or "this war." After a while, you'll see we aren't so different, you and I. We're the same.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:21
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Samizdata posted:I kind of let that stuff slide since adrenalized people generally get a strength boost. Or it's luck. I'd like to let it slide, but it's just too jarring to see a long (and good) scene showing Danny's punches bounce ineffectually off Luke, then watch Elektra's knock his rear end out.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:25
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I'm pretty sure Trish Tilby is an X-Men franchise character. She is. X-Factor.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:27
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Tacier posted:I'd like to let it slide, but it's just too jarring to see a long (and good) scene showing Danny's punches bounce ineffectually off Luke, then watch Elektra's knock his rear end out. I grok in fullness. Have to be willing to let it slide. Netflix is still pretty new in the action TV game. And, I thought it was common knowledge Danny is the WORST IRON FIST EVER, as opposed to Elektra who is at least a fairly competent ninja murder machine.
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Aug 24, 2017 06:29
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Tagichatn posted:Do you have a link handy? It sounds interesting. Nah sorry I can't find the thing I was thinking of, but from trying to google it up there are a heap of interesting reads. Plenty of good stuff from little factoids to full blown lit crit if you filter out the stupid hot takes. The show is really dense with references to black culture that people like me never really get exposed to and reading through this stuff is like looking at an entire different world. Couple of cool ones: http://blacknerdproblems.com/the-luke-cage-syllabus-a-breakdown-of-all-the-black-literature-featured-in-netflixs-luke-cage/ This is really interesting, particularly how some of these books tie into the story of Luke so directly. Really want to pick up a couple of these books. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/creating-luke-cage-the-first-woke-black-superhero-show Long interview with Coker. Good poo poo.
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Aug 24, 2017 07:19
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I really enjoyed it but I'm easy to please. Just my take.
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Aug 24, 2017 07:34
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"CW Level Production." You mean, like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvTPpP58SaE That's the big fight for their big rear end crossover last year. And while there's a lot of cheesy CGI, I can at least tell what the drat hell is happening. Which is more than I can say for anything in the last two Defenders episodes.
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Aug 24, 2017 08:40
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There is something to be said for lighting. The Ep. 3 ending fight was spatially well established, had cuts of reasonable length, and was well lit. As cheesy as the executive board of ninjas was, it worked far better imo than any other action in the season.
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Aug 24, 2017 08:56
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Did anyone else think it might have been foreshadowing when the ex heroin junkie sees Karen and is all like " who's that?"
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Aug 24, 2017 09:05
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Karen will do undercover journalism and pose as a heroin addicted prostitute. She'll get information and her pimp Francis Castligione will murder them. She will use the information for her articles and Frank will follow the trail to more bad guys. Karen will use her leads; Frank will use his lead.
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Aug 24, 2017 12:35
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CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I'm pretty sure Trish Tilby is an X-Men franchise character. Trish Tilby was a supporting character for the X-Men back in the '90s. She's a TV reporter who had a relationship with Hank McCoy. Trish in JJ/Defenders is Patricia "Patsy" Walker, aka Hellcat. Her origin is kinda weird. Nowadays we associate Marvel with just superhero stuff, but up until the mid 60's, they were all over the place; humor comics, love stories, detective comics, horror, westerns, everything. They had a light, fluffy teen humor title called Patsy Walker, where she and her friend Hedy got in teenage hijinx. For some lord-knows-why reason, in the 70's Patsy jumped to the superhero titles and learned martial arts, becoming Hellcat. She starred briefly with Beast (he sure gets around) then jumped to... wait for it... Defenders.
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Aug 24, 2017 12:57
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Narcissus1916 posted:"CW Level Production." That reminded me why I stopped watching those CW shows. 
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Aug 24, 2017 13:29
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Buddy, you're still watching CW shows.Samizdata posted:I grok in fullness. Have to be willing to let it slide. Netflix is still pretty new in the action TV game. Netflix doesn't really make the shows. They finance them and have other production companies/studios do the work. Netflix have only themselves produced a handful of stuff, mostly things like the Chelsea Handler show that doesn't need sets and locations. They're making a move into doing it themselves regularly now though because it saves money. The production companies for this were Marvel TV and ABC (plus some vanity production companies of the producers.)
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Aug 24, 2017 14:03
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JBP posted:Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are my favourites. JJ is kind of heavy but it has good themes and it's well acted. Unsurprisingly my gf loves Jessica Jones and isn't a comic nerd. JJ also has a tight narrative on par with Daredevil S1. Cage owns narratively up until diamondback (it's still good but I preferred the initial villains) then it kind of falls off a bit. JJ would be my favorite if not for the meandering couple episodes before the season finale where every minute is just agonizingly waiting for the shoe to drop. The dead dude's sister convincing everybody to attack Jessica was just stalling for time. Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 14:06
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Gynovore posted:Trish Tilby was a supporting character for the X-Men back in the '90s. She's a TV reporter who had a relationship with Hank McCoy. Also the way they adapted that origin for her in JJ was pretty cute.
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Aug 24, 2017 14:08
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Aphrodite posted:Buddy, you're still watching CW shows. Huh?
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Aug 24, 2017 15:47
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remember when they set up the black guy Hand could do pressure point stuff, and then he fought Luke Cage, and it's like, oh poo poo, the pressure point stuff could actually hurt Luke, this is going to be a cool fight! And it'll tie into Danny and how everybody poo poo on him for talking about Chi, this is gonna be great! And then none of that happened? What the gently caress was that?
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Aug 24, 2017 15:55
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There was a scene early on where the Japanese hand leader (who hunts bears or whatever) starts to put his gloves on to kill Sigourney Weaver's character after telling her she has failed and sucks, but gets interrupted by something and neither him nor Weaver mention it again in the show. Kinda weird and dumb
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Aug 24, 2017 16:07
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Tacier posted:I'd like to let it slide, but it's just too jarring to see a long (and good) scene showing Danny's punches bounce ineffectually off Luke, then watch Elektra's knock his rear end out. Yeah, but here's the thing. Elektra Natchios is a good martial artist and Danny Rand is almost completely ineffectual if he hasn't completed everything on the required forms that allow him to use his chi for a minute and a half. If Matt had been fighting Luke he would also be throwing him around like Sowande. SamuraiFoochs posted:I really enjoyed it but I'm easy to please. Just my take. Same. Again, this still was more entertaining to watch for me than most Supergirl fights or an episode of Flash past season 1 so I'm pretty satisfied. Not that I disagree with anyone saying that it could be better though.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:14
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SHOAH NUFF posted:There was a scene early on where the Japanese hand leader (who hunts bears or whatever) starts to put his gloves on to kill Sigourney Weaver's character after telling her she has failed and sucks, but gets interrupted by something and neither him nor Weaver mention it again in the show. Kinda weird and dumb He was going to kill her because she was. in his opinion, chasing after a fool's errand by investing so much into Electra capturing the Iron Fist. So when Electra turns up with the Iron Fist he's not actually got any real reason to start a coup. (Also, that episode makes it pretty clear that the five leaders of the Hand have made more than a few attempts on each other's lives. You can imagine that they'd be a bit more casual about it. Plus, Alexandra's permanently dead not ten minutes later, so it doesn't really matter.)
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Aug 24, 2017 16:17
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Guy Goodbody posted:remember when they set up the black guy Hand could do pressure point stuff, and then he fought Luke Cage, and it's like, oh poo poo, the pressure point stuff could actually hurt Luke, this is going to be a cool fight! And it'll tie into Danny and how everybody poo poo on him for talking about Chi, this is gonna be great! And then none of that happened? I just kinda took it as flavor dressing for why everyone in the Hand isn't just breaking themselves upon the indestructible wall of Luke Cage like all those guys back in Crispus Attucks. Considering how lame the Hand is here I wouldn't be surprised if they've never had to deal with people as durable as Luke and figuring out how to slow his heartbeat was a whole other thing compared to normal people. Like, it's one thing to use a taser on say, Hawkeye or Tony Stark, but who knows, Captain America might just shrug it off.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:22
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That doesn't make it any less lame and dumb though.
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Aug 24, 2017 17:08
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