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LimburgLimbo posted:In the west most people would lie to say they've had sex though. All those 素人童貞 screwing up the stats
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Aug 11, 2017 21:29
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true.spoon posted:Let me preface this by saying that I think overall Japanese culture is very similar to the cultures of Europe/the US/the West. This similarity is at least one of the reasons why the differences that do exist appear more pronounced. Also one must always be careful with simple explanations, especially when trying to understand individual behavior. I guess this might be true in nerd media but there is a metric poo poo ton of iconic movies and shows about high school in the US, going back to like the Breakfast Club. I'm guessing both because teens are huge media consumers and because high school is a pivotal age in life that people like to look back on. This is pretty much universal. I can see how it would look like there's a special emphasis on high school if your exposure to Japanese media is what gets exported. There are detective shows, endless shows about work, hospital dramas, stuff like Mitokomon that have been going on for 40 years, but nerds like the high school stuff, probably because that's where they are frozen emotionally, so that's most of what makes it out of the country.
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Aug 12, 2017 04:15
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mikeycp posted:Well, in the Sentai that was adapted to what everybody thinks of for Power Rangers the heroes were ancient people from the time of the dinosaurs who were magically frozen in time. So it was preeetty different. LyonsLions posted:I guess this might be true in nerd media but there is a metric poo poo ton of iconic movies and shows about high school in the US, going back to like the Breakfast Club. I'm guessing both because teens are huge media consumers and because high school is a pivotal age in life that people like to look back on. This is pretty much universal. I can see how it would look like there's a special emphasis on high school if your exposure to Japanese media is what gets exported. There are detective shows, endless shows about work, hospital dramas, stuff like Mitokomon that have been going on for 40 years, but nerds like the high school stuff, probably because that's where they are frozen emotionally, so that's most of what makes it out of the country. I don't doubt that you can find mainstream media focused on high school students (in their role as high school students) in the US/Germany as well but I don't think to the same degree as in Japan. Like I said this is difficult to quantify and I can't offer definitive proof but I could name several Japanese movies from relatively recent movie festivals (hopefully reducing the nerd export bias somewhat) fitting the bill and basically none from the US/Germany. I understand the desire to push back against the narrative that everybody in Japan is a huge anime nerd (and a pervert) and this image is certainly exaggerated. But it is simply true that anime/manga is much more mainstream and has a broader appeal than anime/manga/comics in the west. And this includes animes with high schoolers as main characters. For example the recent smash hit Your Name, which as far as I can tell (I haven't seen it but based on Makoto Shinkais other work) is not aimed at high school students and I would be very much surprised if the main box office came from high school students. It is also not seen as a movie for nerds. I can't think of a similar example in the US/Germany. As a comparison, Disney movies have a broad appeal in the West as well but are seen as family movies. Also the setting is basically never school. I broadly agree that what is seen as nerdy in the West is also seen as nerdy in Japan, just not to the same degree (again I understand that this is very subjective). true.spoon fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Aug 12, 2017 |
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Aug 12, 2017 09:15
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true.spoon posted:Ah drat, then it's not really comparable, should have googled it myself before writing something dumb. I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to know the specifics of a Japanese children's serial toy commercial from 1994, so you're good, imo.
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Aug 12, 2017 09:44
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true.spoon posted:Ah drat, then it's not really comparable, should have googled it myself before writing something dumb. Your Name is a lot more mainstream-friendly/less relentlessly depressing and contemplative than Shinkai's other work, like to a huge degree. It turns into an disaster-thriller movie in the second half, and has a happy ending. It was basically designed to be a mainstream box office hit It does feature younger high school students, but that can be chalked up to the inertia of anime genre tropes like I said above, and the movie's just one data point. I think it's fair to say it's a somewhat more common scenario than in European or American media, but I also think it's fair to say it's a small enough difference that "All the animes I've seen feature high schoolers, this must mean Japanese people hate their oppressive nightmare lives and wish they were in an idealized high school" can just be rejected outright unless you really want to go down a rabbit hole of exceptions and footnotes icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Aug 12, 2017 |
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Aug 12, 2017 10:11
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I remember reading something somewhere that the school setting is just a convenient way for many different characters to be able to interact with each other and have "encounters" in a realistic setting. It's almost the laziest option possible to ensure that the plot will move forward without having to worry too much about setting things up.
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Aug 12, 2017 14:08
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true.spoon posted:I understand the desire to push back against the narrative that everybody in Japan is a huge anime nerd (and a pervert) and this image is certainly exaggerated. But it is simply true that anime/manga is much more mainstream and has a broader appeal than anime/manga/comics in the west. And this includes animes with high schoolers as main characters. For example the recent smash hit Your Name, which as far as I can tell (I haven't seen it but based on Makoto Shinkais other work) is not aimed at high school students and I would be very much surprised if the main box office came from high school students. It is also not seen as a movie for nerds. I can't think of a similar example in the US/Germany. As a comparison, Disney movies have a broad appeal in the West as well but are seen as family movies. Also the setting is basically never school.
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Aug 13, 2017 02:30
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mystes posted:this trend is not reflected in Japanese live action TV at all I'll come back to touch on this later, but Gokusen, GTO, Gomen ne Seishuun, etc. Even though the main character is often the teacher, they go out of their way to pan through the students' lives.
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Aug 13, 2017 03:21
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Toshimo posted:I'll come back to touch on this later, but Gokusen, GTO, Gomen ne Seishuun, etc. Even though the main character is often the teacher, they go out of their way to pan through the students' lives. I'm pretty sure that's more about what Japan expects from its teachers than anything. It's generally kind of expected that teachers take some notice of their students' personal lives iirc. Honestly this all seems like an attempt to manufacture a narrative, rather than just accept a pretty simple explanation that most anime really is just targeted at high school/grade school students. Also, it's a pretty safe setting that's not exactly going to alienate many people since pretty much everyone has gone to high school and remembers it. E: v that too. It's like everyone is pretending American Pie/Superbad/Saved By the Bell/etc don't exist for some reason. AnoHito fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 04:49
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I'm just surprised that you guys seem to have never heard of the huge genre of high school themed movies and TV shows in the US. There are hundreds of of them, going back to like the 1960's. I don't buy that "it's just different" because, having attended high school in both countries, there's an awful lot that is different in form but not function, and the truly striking differences are much more subtle than anything that's been mentioned so far in this thread or that is readily visible in anime.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:52
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LyonsLions posted:I don't buy that "it's just different" because, having attended high school in both countries, there's an awful lot that is different in form but not function, and the truly striking differences are much more subtle than anything that's been mentioned so far in this thread or that is readily visible in anime. Do tell.
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Aug 13, 2017 04:54
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AnoHito posted:Honestly this all seems like an attempt to manufacture a narrative, rather than just accept a pretty simple explanation that most anime really is just targeted at high school/grade school students. There's been anime painted on loving military vehicles. I agree the common narrative we get is probably way overblown but it clearly goes a level deeper than in the west.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:18
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I'm gonna go ahead and say that painting anime characters on military vehicles is a recruitment campaign targeted at... you guess it, high schoolers.
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Aug 13, 2017 07:53
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Japanese high schoolers are recruited by painting anime on vehicles and targeted ads along the lines of "check out how much fun these dancing sailors are having,", American high schoolers are recruited by making a First Person Shooter and targeted ads along the lines of "you'll be such a badass, you wouldn't believe." I think it's interesting that there's this difference but I think this is mostly down to the image that the military would like to present of itself rather than interests of high schoolers differing.
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Aug 13, 2017 08:48
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punk rebel ecks posted:Do tell. Understand that I had never watched anime or anything and went into it with basically no preconceived notions about Japanese high schools. The thing that hit me the hardest was the difference in emotional maturity. I would be talking to someone who was my age or older, but would feel like I was talking to someone 2-3 years younger. When it came to sex/relationships, more like 3-4 years younger. It was really jarring and that made me feel out of place much more than the cultural differences because even when we could talk, we couldn't really understand each other. The general stuff about clubs/exams/stress didn't feel all that different to me at the time. I think people encounter it as adults and think it's much worse than it is.
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Aug 13, 2017 09:40
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LyonsLions posted:Understand that I had never watched anime or anything and went into it with basically no preconceived notions about Japanese high schools. The thing that hit me the hardest was the difference in emotional maturity. I would be talking to someone who was my age or older, but would feel like I was talking to someone 2-3 years younger. When it came to sex/relationships, more like 3-4 years younger. It was really jarring and that made me feel out of place much more than the cultural differences because even when we could talk, we couldn't really understand each other. Where did you go to highschool though? Depending on your school people might not care much, but in a competitive highschool or one of the major athletic teams the time invested and the pressure can be crazy.
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Aug 13, 2017 10:14
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icantfindaname posted:Your Name is a lot more mainstream-friendly/less relentlessly depressing and contemplative than Shinkai's other work, like to a huge degree. It turns into an disaster-thriller movie in the second half, and has a happy ending. It was basically designed to be a mainstream box office hit mystes posted:OK, so way too much anime is set in high school, and even when there are anime movies that have a more mainstream appeal, they still slavishly adhere to these genre tropes. It doesn't matter; this trend is not reflected in Japanese live action TV at all, so it would be pretty hard to draw any broad sociological conclusions from it. Let me stress that I don't believe this is some key to understand the "Japanese character" or whatever. For me it is an intersting, if minor, difference and I find it interesting to look at societal differences to see whether there might be a connection. This is basically unprovable and I understand the pushback but it feels a bit reflexive. You can probably make similar observations comparing American with German media about high school, this is not some Japan-is-such-a-strange-and-crazy-place argument. *If we just focus on media with high school students that feature suicide I think a difference to other Western nations becomes exceedingly clear. Suicide has also become a trope but it is a trope that sadly has societal significance. If you zoom out a bit the picture of course becomes more blurry. LyonsLions posted:Understand that I had never watched anime or anything and went into it with basically no preconceived notions about Japanese high schools. The thing that hit me the hardest was the difference in emotional maturity. I would be talking to someone who was my age or older, but would feel like I was talking to someone 2-3 years younger. When it came to sex/relationships, more like 3-4 years younger. It was really jarring and that made me feel out of place much more than the cultural differences because even when we could talk, we couldn't really understand each other. true.spoon fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Aug 13, 2017 |
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Aug 13, 2017 10:17
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LyonsLions posted:I'm just surprised that you guys seem to have never heard of the huge genre of high school themed movies and TV shows in the US. There are hundreds of of them, going back to like the 1960's. I don't buy that "it's just different" because, having attended high school in both countries, there's an awful lot that is different in form but not function, and the truly striking differences are much more subtle than anything that's been mentioned so far in this thread or that is readily visible in anime. Yeah, actually, do tell more about how the school system works/is different in Japan. The schools over there have always been one of the hardest aspects of the society to read anything worthwhile about, and the most swamped in bullshit misinformation
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Aug 13, 2017 10:23
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LimburgLimbo posted:Where did you go to highschool though? Depending on your school people might not care much, but in a competitive highschool or one of the major athletic teams the time invested and the pressure can be crazy. Well I was in band in both places, so that's going to be the source of the difference, I'd guess. My Japanese high school wasn't really into the band competition, and only a few kids went to the solo competition. I did participate in the band competition as an adult in a hobby group, which was Hilarious.
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Aug 13, 2017 10:31
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true.spoon posted:But like I said it's not just about anime and I see something similar in movies as well (not nerd movies) and I also see a difference in German media targeted at kids. Maybe I wasn't clear before, I don't believe the explanation lies in the stressfulness of adult life. For example I mentioned the genre of serious films about high school students (dealing with themes like suicide, prostitution, bullying and so on) that I don't think are targeted at high school students and that clearly do not call back to some cheerful time of youth*. One simple explaination for the lack of school settings in German series might be the time spent at school each day. Most school days end at 1pm, with recess at 10am for 30 minutes. Even the one German series set in a school is about a boarding school.
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Aug 13, 2017 12:47
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LimburgLimbo posted:Where did you go to highschool though? Depending on your school people might not care much, but in a competitive highschool or one of the major athletic teams the time invested and the pressure can be crazy. I was going to say sure in terms of dating/sex some people might lack behind but in terms having drive/pressure to succeed it's a bit different. One of my friends learned early on during her university days not to trust her dorm mates and her peers too well. She was applying to grad school in the states and one of her classmates saw the acceptance letter before everyone else. Someone stole my friend's identity and wrote a letter to reject the conditional offer to up their own chances  The amount of passive aggressiveness and pettiness can be pretty bad at times. I'm not saying the West is all nice and sunshine (If only, gently caress lawyers and bankers) but the kind of social bullshit is just different. I think sometimes it really takes an outsider to see the differences and just refuse.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:40
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Yeah, I think people are overcompensating for Western media sensationalism about Japan coverage by going the other extreme. Anyone's who lived in Japan and dated Japanese women has probably seen how poorly Japanese youth handle relationships or sexual intimacy.
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Aug 14, 2017 06:08
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shrike82 posted:Yeah, I think people are overcompensating for Western media sensationalism about Japan coverage by going the other extreme. the south
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Aug 14, 2017 13:09
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shrike82 posted:Anyone's who lived in Japan and dated Japanese women has probably seen how poorly Japanese youth handle relationships or sexual intimacy. I feel like there's a story here.
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Aug 14, 2017 13:55
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Venomous posted:Osomatsu-san as well. That's pretty much it tho. Not even true for this season, much less "recently". So apologies for the really basic question, but something l've been wondering about is, who is Abe's base of support? What is the demo voting for the guys who keep him in charge?
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Aug 14, 2017 15:58
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Old people and people in the countryside.
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Aug 15, 2017 10:38
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paragon1 posted:Not even true for this season, much less "recently". I mean, yeah, the most recent episode was a year and a half ago, but they are making new episodes and they are all about 20-something protagonists, so admittedly, I don't know much about recent anime, so eh, idgaf
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Aug 15, 2017 22:14
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Are there any good podcasts out there focused on history in Japan and/or Japanese politics?
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Aug 24, 2017 16:47
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Rooney McNibnug posted:Are there any good podcasts out there focused on history in Japan and/or Japanese politics? There's the literally titled "History of Japan" podcast that's still ongoing. Yes, it was inspired by the History of Rome podcast, I believe. Haven't had the opportunity to give it a listen myself, though.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:52
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IIRC the Langley Esquire stuff is also released in podcast form.
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Aug 24, 2017 17:17
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How have developments with North Korea affected Japanese politics? As an outsider I'd guess that Abe's hand has been strengthened because his hawkishness is mistaken for strength in an uncertain time.
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Aug 24, 2017 17:38
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Not really. If anything it seems like the Japanese public is fed up with Abe's flirting back and forth between the right and the center to manipulate his poll numbers. He hasn't actually been that right wing since his return in 2012 and has mostly been doing that kind of flip flopping, unwilling to commit to right wing policy for fear of the public backlash. Seems to me like North Korea panic is quite muted For a long time his poll numbers were unusually good but in the last few months they've turned negative in a way that basically guarantees he's a lame duck for the remaining year of his term. He probably will not get any major legislation passed, and constitutional change is 100% dead icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 18:03
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Would the heavy stigma against public displays of affection be a decisive factor as to why nobody in Japan wants children? What would it take to reverse such stigma?
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Aug 24, 2017 18:08
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Grouchio posted:Would the heavy stigma against public displays of affection be a decisive factor as to why nobody in Japan wants children? What would it take to reverse such stigma? I have no idea how you would even think this
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Aug 24, 2017 18:39
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LimburgLimbo posted:I have no idea how you would even think this Because slightly racist idiots like to think that "Japan is having birthrate problems? Must be because they're such NERDS amirite." And a lot of popular media like to repeat it like it's fact.
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Aug 24, 2017 18:57
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Speaking as a parent: not having kids is highly rational because kids are an enormous time and money and energy sink. It's like having a second job that you carry around with you all the time, except worse because instead of paying you money the job actually just costs you money instead. Even generous social democracies like in Scandinavia don't even come close with their benefits to making parents at parity with childless people. If you like free time and more spending money and more independence and more fun, then having kids is an awful decision. You can probably only get people in highly developed countries to have more kids by making it look equivalently as good as not having kids, which would require MASSIVE redistributive policies to transfer money to parents to account for the costs of childrearing. Cicero fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 20:51
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Just a brief reminder to everyone reading that Japan has a birth rate equal to or *higher* than a number of first world European countries.
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Aug 25, 2017 01:10
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That's true, it seems to be a general problem among highly developed countries. Once the cultural/religious pressure to have kids is gone (or at least highly alleviated) it's harder to justify, especially since expectations for parents are higher than ever*. * Fun fact: men in the US spend more time taking care of their kids now than they did decades ago. That's not surprising, but what is is that so do women, even though they also work more outside the home now and have fewer kids (which means the per-kid time has to be WAY up).
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Aug 25, 2017 01:19
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Cicero posted:That's true, it seems to be a general problem among highly developed countries. Once the cultural/religious pressure to have kids is gone (or at least highly alleviated) it's harder to justify, especially since expectations for parents are higher than ever*. Probably has something to do with the cost of daycare being higher than a lot of people can reliably make working.
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Aug 25, 2017 01:29
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Cicero posted:* Fun fact: men in the US spend more time taking care of their kids now than they did decades ago. That's not surprising, but what is is that so do women, even though they also work more outside the home now and have fewer kids (which means the per-kid time has to be WAY up). Also, kids used to spend much more time running around outside on their own. The current standard in the US seems to be that kids need to be under direct adult supervision 100% of the time until they reach adulthood, which means that parents have to be spending a lot more hours taking care of their kids whenever they aren't in daycare/school.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:07
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