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fadam posted:Yeah, but it's also been unlimited. I'm well aware, having played Haley 2 for most of a decade now. 
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Aug 24, 2017 19:03
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haley2 is fundamentally poorly designed and should probably be axed from the game altogether 
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Aug 24, 2017 19:04
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Fyrbrand posted:haley2 is fundamentally poorly designed and should probably be axed from the game altogether The change to her feat not auto-hitting every piece of support/solo on the table, and your caster, is both cool and good
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Aug 24, 2017 19:05
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Every Cygnar player crying today probably danced on the grave of EE, or early Mk3 Madrak2, or Meat Mountain. Karma 
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Aug 24, 2017 19:13
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S.J. posted:The change to her feat not auto-hitting every piece of support/solo on the table, and your caster, is both cool and good I think you're way too willing to give PP the benefit of the doubt when it comes to stuff like this.You said the same thing about the Caine 2 changes, and what do you know, he's garbage now. Fyrbrand posted:Every Cygnar player crying today probably danced on the grave of EE, or early Mk3 Madrak2, or Meat Mountain. Karma I haven't played Cygnar in like a year, but I thought all those changes were dumb, too. This is a hot take I don't think anyone will agree with: I don't think broad, huge nerfs to units in miniature games are smart. fadam fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 19:14
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As a Cygnar player the only thing I'm upset about is that these changes aren't live yet, though since I don't own Kraye yet and haven't actually assembled Triumph I suppose I'll survive.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:25
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Whether or not the change is good aside, it's a little dumb they didn't at least try and CID it, especially considering how important Haley 2 has been to Cygnar's competitive success.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:35
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Maybe its not Caine or Haley who is poo poo but the players who cry about the nerf.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:36
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For_Great_Justice posted:Maybe its not Caine or Haley who is poo poo but the players who cry about the nerf. Nah, its the people still complaining about her.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:40
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For_Great_Justice posted:Maybe its not Caine or Haley who is poo poo but the players who cry about the nerf. Not a productive or helpful comment.
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Aug 24, 2017 19:52
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Haley2 is way overplayed so good riddance
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Aug 24, 2017 20:05
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CID is also live. Falk the Shotgun Mage looks great, the new Convergence caster looks gross, and the Llaelese Resistance theme kind of makes me wish o had a Merc army. The Sons of the Tempest theme change is ok maybe? I still don't know that it's that good but progress has been made I think.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:15
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The new and improved theme forces (Pistoleer on all the gun mages holy cow) make me very excited for September. I hope they run more of the existing themes through CiD again. Pistoleer on MHSF in Shadows please. fadam fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 20:22
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Looking forward to the Llaelese one, especially with the prospect of a unit of Gun Mages with Sniper.
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Aug 24, 2017 20:23
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Forzelt posted:Not a productive or helpful comment. Maybe not but I've seen caine an haley push off newbies quite a bit from playing at all. The changes were needed an anyone throwing a fit has a poor attitude instead of going "ok how do my lists/tactics need to change?"
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Aug 24, 2017 20:36
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Faithful Masses looks great, improved zealots and deliverers seem viable, the dragoon doesn't really fix paladins.
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Aug 24, 2017 21:24
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fadam posted:I think you're way too willing to give PP the benefit of the doubt when it comes to stuff like this.You said the same thing about the Caine 2 changes, and what do you know, he's garbage now. He still probably wouldn't be the best shot against Ghost Fleet pre-nerf, so I don't think he'd be getting played right now anyway, unless 2017 really changes the amount of infantry people are taking. In which case, he might be good enough come back regardless, too. He isn't garbage right now though, Cygnar's just got offensively good casters compared to most of their stable, like usual. Pistoleer is insane though, that would convince me to start running that theme. S.J. fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 22:11
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Even though I'm selling most of my skorne I'm keeping some of it, because for example I love the paint job on mammoth Definitely considering getting jalaam to deadeye the mammoth.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:13
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This Haley nerf has drawn me back to playing Warmachine. Been playing 40k for a while. It's a terrible game, but because you know it's all terrible going in, it's really fun. Warmachine had felt really oppressive, and playing against Haley 2 a lot often felt like, why am I bothering to try when my opponent can just, almost, accidentally win with that feat.
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Aug 24, 2017 22:51
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S.J. posted:He still probably wouldn't be the best shot against Ghost Fleet pre-nerf, so I don't think he'd be getting played right now anyway, unless 2017 really changes the amount of infantry people are taking. In which case, he might be good enough come back regardless, too. He isn't garbage right now though, Cygnar's just got offensively good casters compared to most of their stable, like usual. Why wouldn't pre-nerf Caine 2 be good against Ghost Fleet? Even with no RFP he has good magic damage output and a strong true sight assassination threat for Deneghra. Ghost Fleet didn't push him out of the meta, he just sucks now. What'll be interesting is to see if the Haley 2 nerfs are enough to kick her out of 99% of Cygnar pairings. Even with a bad feat she's still significantly better than basically the rest of the casters in faction. I can see Cygnar's winrate dropping, but I can't see lists becoming any more diverse unless people decide to galaxy brain it up and play Haley 3 more, but I guess we'll see. !Klams posted:This Haley nerf has drawn me back to playing Warmachine. Been playing 40k for a while. It's a terrible game, but because you know it's all terrible going in, it's really fun. Warmachine had felt really oppressive, and playing against Haley 2 a lot often felt like, why am I bothering to try when my opponent can just, almost, accidentally win with that feat. One caster in one faction was enough to drive you out of the game? Does your whole store play Cygnar?
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Aug 24, 2017 22:58
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fadam posted:Why wouldn't pre-nerf Caine 2 be good against Ghost Fleet? Even with no RFP he has good magic damage output and a strong true sight assassination threat for Deneghra. Ghost Fleet didn't push him out of the meta, he just sucks now. When I started out there were 4 of us, and the Cygnar player basically always played her against me. He was also the guy who was most often available, so of my first say, 50 games I'd say maybe 20 were against her. Then he quit, and we got loads more players in our group, but then he came back, and playing her again just felt like such a chore.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:05
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Maybe, but I guarantee that there are casters in your faction he hates to play against too. Haley2 was quite strong, but she's definitely not unique when it comes to being miserable to play against. I don't see how Haley 2 is any more of a "negative play experience" than what Kreoss1 or Sorscha1 can do with their feats. Or what Oracles and Ghost fleet do. Or literally basically every competitively viable caster.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:11
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fadam posted:Maybe, but I guarantee that there are casters in your faction he hates to play against too. Haley2 was quite strong, but she's definitely not unique when it comes to being miserable to play against. I don't see how Haley 2 is any more of a "negative play experience" than what Kreoss1 or Sorscha1 can do with their feats. Or what Oracles and Ghost fleet do. Or literally basically every competitively viable caster. Kreoss1 and Sorscha1 have feats that can be shaken which means you can do something about them and not have the entire melee part of your army cut out of the game. Steady is a thing, and some models are also cold-immune.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:18
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They can be mitigated, but they also come with benefits that Haley's feat doesn't. On balance i'd say they're roughly at equivalent power to Haley's feat. Or at least they were until Haley's feat lost the ability to ever effect an entire 10-man unit lmao. I can't imagine any Haley 2 player wouldn't swap her feat for any of the other control feats immediately if they could, now. They honestly probably just should have made it shakable. It would be mostly worse than similar feats, but with a huge range and a better caster backing it up. It's too bad they don't have some kind of testing environment they could try different changes to models out in.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:32
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S.J. posted:The change to her feat not auto-hitting every piece of support/solo on the table, and your caster, is both cool and good I think it's a good idea. Makes her an anti battlegroup list caster instead of just a metal middle finger on a plastic base Woo Marnier buff!
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Aug 24, 2017 23:37
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fadam posted:Why wouldn't pre-nerf Caine 2 be good against Ghost Fleet? That's not what I said.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:47
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fadam posted:Maybe, but I guarantee that there are casters in your faction he hates to play against too. Haley2 was quite strong, but she's definitely not unique when it comes to being miserable to play against. I don't see how Haley 2 is any more of a "negative play experience" than what Kreoss1 or Sorscha1 can do with their feats. Or what Oracles and Ghost fleet do. Or literally basically every competitively viable caster. In my opinion, making her feat shakeable would have been a much larger nerf. The new feat is still strong into BG heavy lists (or lists with lots of points in single models), but worse into infantry. A shakeable feat is worthless into BG heavy lists but better into infantry. Trade offs....
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Aug 24, 2017 23:49
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Arguing Haley2 feat is not in a class of its own is not a hill to die on.
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Aug 24, 2017 23:50
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Being good into jacks is stronger these days
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Aug 24, 2017 23:50
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And you can still limit unit movement quite a bit by feating on the commander in a number of situations.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:01
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fadam posted:They can be mitigated, but they also come with benefits that Haley's feat doesn't. On balance i'd say they're roughly at equivalent power to Haley's feat. Or at least they were until Haley's feat lost the ability to ever effect an entire 10-man unit lmao. I can't imagine any Haley 2 player wouldn't swap her feat for any of the other control feats immediately if they could, now. And as a sometime-Barnabas player I'd swap for the new version of Haley's feat fairly happily. I get to shut down the entire enemy battlegroup for a turn. Including gargossles and battle engines. The idea that knockdown was at roughly equivalent power to Hayley2's feat simply doesn't hold water. Even melee infantry still gets hosed by Haley2's feat unless they are cold blooded enough to kill their own unit commanders (and that has downsides against Officers). You normally have enough for one model in each unit...
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Aug 25, 2017 00:18
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From the merc Facebook group; No oneeee steals souls like Gastonne! Runs and guns like Gastonne! Gains stealth, increases range or shield guards like Gastonne!
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Aug 25, 2017 00:25
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fadam posted:Maybe, but I guarantee that there are casters in your faction he hates to play against too. Nah, I play Rhulic and Cephalyx.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:26
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Excelsiortothemax posted:From the merc Facebook group; Yessss
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Aug 25, 2017 00:40
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The Haley2 Nerf is fine and I've been playing her for the last 6 months so I don't say that as an anti Cygnar thing. A note on it though, it's now worded as a pulse so she can feat on 6-8 models and move away to safety. It also stops shenanigans like apparition, TK and slipstream moving models on the edge of her control and being unaffected by the feat altogether. Once they are tagged they are affected. People who don't like it need to learn to play the game and not just move up, feat and get 2 turns in a row because it was boring and dumb.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:45
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fadam posted:Maybe, but I guarantee that there are casters in your faction he hates to play against too. Haley2 was quite strong, but she's definitely not unique when it comes to being miserable to play against. I don't see how Haley 2 is any more of a "negative play experience" than what Kreoss1 or Sorscha1 can do with their feats. Or what Oracles and Ghost fleet do. Or literally basically every competitively viable caster. Why yes, a shakeable foc 6 control range and LoS dependant feat is as powerful as an unshakable foc 9 one. I mean, come on. Sorscha can get a few things in her feat with good positionning and that's it. H2 cover half the table with hers without even trying.
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Aug 25, 2017 00:45
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Iceclaw posted:Why yes, a shakeable foc 6 control range and LoS dependant feat is as powerful as an unshakable foc 9 one. I mean, come on. Sorscha can get a few things in her feat with good positionning and that's it. H2 cover half the table with hers without even trying. I mean obviously a lot of players and certainly privateer press agree that she was dumb and these guys are fine because she's getting the nerf and they're not being looked at.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:06
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Yes, but the units Haley feats on don't become stationary, which as an effect is several times stronger than just having to forfeit movement or activation. Post nerfs, her feat was probably roughly equivalent to the other hard control feats in the game. Now it's pretty worthless against anything but battlegroup heavy lists. !Klams posted:I mean obviously a lot of players and certainly privateer press agree that she was dumb and these guys are fine because she's getting the nerf and they're not being looked at. Yeah, PP never makes mistakes and they've never made hasty balance decisions just to placate crybabies. fadam fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 02:14
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Watching Kreoss 1 play into anti-KD tech is depressing.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:15
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I haven't seen kreoss 1 on the table in years. I saw sorscha1 once last year and I killed her top of two with some eliminators.
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Aug 25, 2017 02:21
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