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FulsomFrank posted:People feel strongly enough about Clank to get mad when someone doesn't like something/likes it too much? You haven't noticed the tendency of the world to be permanently butthurt and making sure everyone knows about it?? That's why I like SA so much, they shut the butthurt guys up.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:12
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I've played Clank twice and the game really sucks
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Aug 25, 2017 15:13
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FulsomFrank posted:People feel strongly enough about Clank to get mad when someone doesn't like something/likes it too much? It's reddit.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:17
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Best part is the biweekly people getting mad about people pointing out bad representation in games. I still think it's worth keeping an eye on (for instance, I would've never gotten brand new Inis for 24 euro shipped otherwise), but there's no need to actually engage with the community. Speaking of which, I'm at 6 plays now and Inis might just be the best game ever for me. Each time around there's some new source of tension, and games feel like they're balanced on a knife's edge from round 2 or 3 all the way to the end. I got a turn 3 win the other day (that's what you get for letting me get 2 deeds in 2 turns. They learned the lesson now)
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Aug 25, 2017 15:21
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Chill la Chill posted:Oh, that's good to hear! I've been telling my friends to quit reading the reddit board game forum too and to join SA. One keeps putting it off and instead buys these weird $10 Queen Games because they're so cheap. What about Alhambra or Lancaster? Fresco is good as well.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:22
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(FYI world monuments is currently that cheap queen game) Like, I love that we were all able to get Chicago express for that cheap, but the other stuff?
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Kashuno posted:I've played Clank twice and the game really sucks Does it  I threw it in with my preorder for Gloomhaven to get free shipping. Maybe I should change it to something more universally lauded.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:22
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ShaneB posted:Does it Fortunately for you, there's a lot of people with bad opinions you can pawn it off on.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:25
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I'm a person who takes great issue with the "it's just fun" argument, but Clank kinda does that for me. Sometimes I like variety in my gaming and I don't mind the design flaws. I don't need to own it, but I play it once a month or so at my in-store meetup.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:25
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golden bubble posted:What about Alhambra or Lancaster? Fresco is good as well. Yeah they got in on the first two but I missed out on Fresco. But there was a beach game last week, world monuments now, cable car, 1901, Gluxx, all sorts of things. Not all queen but queen has a greater share of these.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:26
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ShaneB posted:Does it It's a market row deckbuilder that really adds nothing to something like Ascension or Legendary. Swap that out if you can.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:29
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ShaneB posted:Does it It's a market row deckbuilder that has a really stupid design and crappy gameplay loop. The way the game is designed it rewards luck more than your average market row deckbuilder, which is saying a lot. You can buy good cards, but the turn you get them could be absolutely useless depending on the state of the map and the rest of the cards in your hand. so not only do you have to get cards that work well in your deck, you need to get them in a specific hand in a specific situation. Getting hurt is almost entirely luckbased (you can manipulate it a bit by not playing cards or not buying cards to put cubes in) and boring. It sucks. It is, bar none, the worst game I have ever played*. that has actually been published
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Aug 25, 2017 15:37
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From my understanding, this is what happened with rahdo in the reddit thread. He created a video a few days before Gen Con with his top 10 most anticipated games. He announced a mystery game at #4 and raved about how it was on his table off camera but couldn't announce it yet. When the mystery game turned out to be an underwhelming-looking Clank in Space, people bagged on him on reddit for hyping up a game that they didn't think was worthy of his praise. After several exchanges where he defended his opinion, he just quit and deleted his account. Draw your own conclusions, I guess. For reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/6u27ig/clank_in_space_rahdo_talkthrough/?st=j6rz55da&sh=f8408ef8 https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/6u7x6t/sorry_gotta_go/?st=j6rzdde3&sh=fcdfabcc
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Aug 25, 2017 15:38
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Clank gives me Munchkin vibes both in the tone/style of how it's presented and how there's already a different-genre-reskin of it
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Aug 25, 2017 15:44
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Tales of Woe posted:Clank gives me Munchkin vibes both in the tone/style of how it's presented and how there's already a different-genre-reskin of it Welcome to the world of market row deckbuilders. Star Realms tread this path as well.
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Aug 25, 2017 15:51
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GrandpaPants posted:It's a market row deckbuilder that really adds nothing to something like Ascension or Legendary. Swap that out if you can. I keep seeing market row deck builder tossed around as a negative and I'm curious if someone could articulate why it's a problem and compare it to other games that do deck builders right? For instance, I know personally that I loving despise DC Deckbuilder for a variety of reasons, one of which is the market row that aggravates the randomness of the game. BUT my beloved Valley of the Kings is a market row (pyramid row?) that seems less aggravating or random. Is it because it's tougher to build giant combos in VoK because you have to choose whether to use the card or the gold on it? And then there's Dominion where all the cards are right there available for purchase off the bat (is there a term for this style?). Curiously, most of my friends prefer the market row deck builders to Dominion-style, but I secretly believe that it's because Dominion is too strategic versus the markedly simpler/more random DC variant. Anyway, this isn't intended to poo poo on anyone's favourites (except DC because gently caress you I've played it a dozen times and it's been bad every time) I am just genuinely curious if anyone can put into words the problems associated with market rows or deck builders in general.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:05
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Kashuno posted:It's a market row deckbuilder that has a really stupid design and crappy gameplay loop. The way the game is designed it rewards luck more than your average market row deckbuilder, which is saying a lot. You can buy good cards, but the turn you get them could be absolutely useless depending on the state of the map and the rest of the cards in your hand. so not only do you have to get cards that work well in your deck, you need to get them in a specific hand in a specific situation. Getting hurt is almost entirely luckbased (you can manipulate it a bit by not playing cards or not buying cards to put cubes in) and boring. It sucks. It is, bar none, the worst game I have ever played*. I take it you have not played "Who is the traitor" or "Evil baby orphanage", then. I'm still not sure which of those is my least favorite.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:06
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The problem with market row deckbuilders is that there is little to any strategy involved. You see a card in the row that is the best, you take it if you can buy it, and if you can't you buy whatever is best for your cost. There are usually pretty straightforward "strictly better" decisions to pick, and since you don't know what's coming, you may buy whatever is best for you at the time only to flip the best card in the game that your opponent can then just pick up and roll you with. Sometimes the cards in the row just suck and it feels bad taking them, but there is no way around it because that's how better things come up. A game I've playtested that I think had a lot of promise as a market row deckbuilder handled this issue pretty elegantly. The game had a water cycle theme, and cards in the market row would flow from the clouds to the ocean. There were 5 slots between the clouds and the ocean, and each turn the cards would flow to the next space in the chain, disappearing from the game if they hit the ocean. In addition, the top card of the cloud deck was always face up so you knew what was coming to help you decide a bit of what to buy. It helped a lot.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:11
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Kashuno posted:A game I've playtested that I think had a lot of promise as a market row deckbuilder handled this issue pretty elegantly. The game had a water cycle theme, and cards in the market row would flow from the clouds to the ocean. There were 5 slots between the clouds and the ocean, and each turn the cards would flow to the next space in the chain, disappearing from the game if they hit the ocean. In addition, the top card of the cloud deck was always face up so you knew what was coming to help you decide a bit of what to buy. It helped a lot. code:
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Aug 25, 2017 16:15
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Kashuno posted:The problem with market row deckbuilders is that there is little to any strategy involved. You see a card in the row that is the best, you take it if you can buy it, and if you can't you buy whatever is best for your cost. There are usually pretty straightforward "strictly better" decisions to pick, and since you don't know what's coming, you may buy whatever is best for you at the time only to flip the best card in the game that your opponent can then just pick up and roll you with. Sometimes the cards in the row just suck and it feels bad taking them, but there is no way around it because that's how better things come up. This is more or less what Valley of the Kings does. It's a tiered market so you can influence what you purchase and what your opponent has available to them. This solves one of the main problems with a single market row as you said, where the availability of cards is never up to the player. Like I have to give Century Spice Road some credit for being smart enough to pay more for cards further down the row, a basic design conceit that almost no generic deck builders follow. I really like Daily Magic and their Valeria series. They seem to also be a group that likes the concept of deck builders but also hates how all of them crib from Dominion. They understand the appeal of deck builders, namely that they're quick, but there's more meat than something like Ascension which is basically a game on permanent cruise control.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:16
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Although it is different, Concordia also has a market row that works pretty well, since stuff that just appears costs more than stuff that has been hanging around for ages (which is the same thing that TtA does even though that isn't even classed as a deckbuilder). The problem with a lot of market row games is that there isn't really any mechanism like that, and we can blame Ascension for that lovely mechanism, and a lot of games copied ascension wholesale.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:20
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Maybe I'd try Valley of the Kings. I like the idea of deckbuilders, but they're generally so boring I never bother to try them
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Aug 25, 2017 16:21
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In addition, you can also get some epic stalling in a one-deck market row deckbuilder (IE almost ever market row deckbuilder) if all the high cost cards come out early. Combine that with multiple currencies and you can get multiple turns when everyone cannot interact with the market. Of course, Valley of the Kings solves that problem by splitting the deck between high-cost and low-cost cards, to ensure that you never get a 7-cost card in the market before all the 3-cost cards come out. Valley of the Kings also lacks the multiple-currencies problem. That's why Valley of the Kings is the only good market row deckbuilder I know of. Another problem with most market row deckbuilder is trashing. Trashing cards is strong, but getting access to trashing is very random in most market row deckbuilders. Of course, Valley of the Kings has already solved that issue with one free entomb per turn.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:21
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Market row by itself isn't a problem, but as others stated it's because you need to have some sort of cost associated with grabbing more recent additions to the market row. Castles of MKL is literally all market row. I think CMKL does it well by giving player agency to the market row, so it adds that little bit of commodity speculation to the mix. I actually think market row could be added to other games to alleviate some problems with blind draws, like Viticulture. I hate that game so much since I wanted caverna with a wine factory, but no, apparently the grapes and orders you fulfill are all random and the visitors tend to give you more VP anyway. 
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Aug 25, 2017 16:24
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Kashuno posted:Maybe I'd try Valley of the Kings. I like the idea of deckbuilders, but they're generally so boring I never bother to try them Maybe you would like Time of Struggles, a deck building wargame that could've been an Eklund style pure card game but GMT probably mandated a map because wargamers wouldn't buy it otherwise.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:25
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So Cardhaus will let me change my preorder from Clank to something else. Stuff in the general price range I am thinking: Agricola Concordia Quadropolis or just upping the price already sunk into Clank and pulling the trigger on Feast For Odin. OR just audible to something absurd looking but in my wheelhouse like Millenium Blades THOUGHTS YALL?
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Aug 25, 2017 16:30
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al-azad posted:Maybe you would like Time of Struggles, a deck building wargame that could've been an Eklund style pure card game but GMT probably mandated a map because wargamers wouldn't buy it otherwise. The mounted map in Time of Crisis is really good and should be treasured. I could kinda see the lack of a need for a map by just printing parts of the map on different cards and sell it in the size of a carcassonne expansion box.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:30
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al-azad posted:Maybe you would like Time of Struggles, a deck building wargame that could've been an Eklund style pure card game but GMT probably mandated a map because wargamers wouldn't buy it otherwise. Time of crisis is what you are thinking of
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Aug 25, 2017 16:31
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Valley of the Kings works because it has a tiered market and doesn't have linear strategies. The set collection only matters at the end for scoring whereas in a lot of deckbuilders it matters for making your deck function. in the latter type of game, the Century/Concordia/Suburbia etc style of tiered market row won't fix things because everyone needs specific types of cards as soon as possible and someone is going to get lucky with theirs being cheaper and they'll win.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:34
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ShaneB posted:So Cardhaus will let me change my preorder from Clank to something else. Stuff in the general price range I am thinking: Concordia is really good, and even has a semi-deckbuilding aspect to it, I would recommend that.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:35
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Lots of games have rows where the costs differ depending on the card chosen, this is a good mechanic.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:38
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I had the pleasure of trying out Barenpark last night at my local game store. It is turn-based Tetris, which is wonderfully tactile. There is enough complexity in the rules to made decisions meaningful, and a fair amount of forward planning required to score high. I especially enjoyed our second game, in which we tried out the Achievement varient. "Have three polar bears", "Have six connected parks" and "Have 1 each of the 4 enclosure shapes". I planned poorly and missed parks and enclosures each by a single turn, but I liked the goals to work towards and the higher interactivity between players. Despite losing both games, I heartily recommend Barenpark for players of all ages and skill level. I would call it Carcassone adjacent: it is a simple tile laying game with deceptive depth. It is also very aesthetically pleasing. Furthermore, bears are cute and good.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:39
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Papes posted:Time of crisis is what you are thinking of drat, I didn't even do it as a joke that time! I'm afraid I'll never get your name right, Twilight of Crisis.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:40
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ShaneB posted:So Cardhaus will let me change my preorder from Clank to something else. Stuff in the general price range I am thinking: Concordia is really really good, and Agricola is a classic but it's not the easiest or most exciting. Feast for Odin is really great and kind of the game Rosenberg has been building up to for some time, in my opinion. I haven't played Quadropolis but I love city-building and it sounds pretty fun. I posted a while back about how I felt a limited market row in viticulture would fix the problems of poo poo grape draws/orders for me. Visitors are so swingy and circumstance specific but I think that's more an issue with the balancing on them period rather than something could be solved by a market row but I could see their problems being slightly alleviated by at least a choice. But I like your point about Ludwig and Suburbia and how player agency is increased with how the tiles are priced really adding a lot of depth to what could otherwise be just random poo poo available for selection. Also, each piece not bought gets cheaper every round too creating other incentives as well.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:42
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Having played a bunch of Legendary flavors at GenCon it's triple loving stupid as a market row deckbuilder. Not only do you have double currencies, but unlike say, Ascension, you can't even buy the second currency direct, you have to hope it comes up in the market in an affordable form. Additionally, the only way to win is with the second, superior currency. To top it all off, if things start cascading, the primary currency market starts getting swept of affordable cards by game rule (you literally must start discarding the most affordable cards by rule so that only the most expensive remain), so if you didn't snag one of the busted secondary currency cards right off, you may as well go sit in the corner for the rest of the game while people play without you.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:45
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poo poo I really want to play Concordia...
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Aug 25, 2017 16:45
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Toshimo posted:Having played a bunch of Legendary flavors at GenCon it's triple loving stupid as a market row deckbuilder. Not only do you have double currencies, but unlike say, Ascension, you can't even buy the second currency direct, you have to hope it comes up in the market in an affordable form. Additionally, the only way to win is with the second, superior currency. To top it all off, if things start cascading, the primary currency market starts getting swept of affordable cards by game rule (you literally must start discarding the most affordable cards by rule so that only the most expensive remain), so if you didn't snag one of the busted secondary currency cards right off, you may as well go sit in the corner for the rest of the game while people play without you.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:47
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Tekopo posted:The only reason why I sort of like Legendary Encounters is the theme and the fact that it's co-op (and without the stupid Legendary "co-op but not" victory conditions). I always feel like co-op games can get away with slightly worse mechanisms than competitive games. Oh, yes. Straight co-op Legendary Encounters good. Please
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Aug 25, 2017 16:49
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FulsomFrank posted:I posted a while back about how I felt a limited market row in viticulture would fix the problems of poo poo grape draws/orders for me. Visitors are so swingy and circumstance specific but I think that's more an issue with the balancing on them period rather than something could be solved by a market row but I could see their problems being slightly alleviated by at least a choice. But I like your point about Ludwig and Suburbia and how player agency is increased with how the tiles are priced really adding a lot of depth to what could otherwise be just random poo poo available for selection. Also, each piece not bought gets cheaper every round too creating other incentives as well.  It's really weird too. Caverna is so soft and non-confrontational even as a worker placement while almost all of my other games allow my friends and I to be huge dicks to each other.
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Aug 25, 2017 16:56
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Chill la Chill posted:I just really, really like Caverna and I wanted a wine-making Caverna. Caverna holds a special place as the first Rosenberg I played and my GF and I still love it even though I have to say it doesn't make too many appearances as of late. Have you played Cave vs Cave yet? Another I haven't tried yet but maybe someone else could weigh in on whether Vinhos might be more up people's alley for wine-making with less randomness?
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Aug 25, 2017 17:02
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Yes it's amazing get Vinhos. It's more of a winery-simulator than a wine-making simulator but its very good at what it does. Edit this post is a little vague, I'll do some legwork. Vinhos is a game from before Vital got big enough to ignore important criticisms about needless busy work in his games (see Lisboa's building costs. I'm open to being wrong on this but my first impression was bad.) Vinhos is an economic simulation that uses worker placement and tableau building to achieve its goals. Its not got a lot of mechanics, and centers around procuring vineyards, then making them stronger with buildings, additional vineyards, and miscellaneous boosts. But it doesn't just model 'making good wine'. That's not the point of a vineyard, after all. The point of a vineyard is to profitably produce wine. To that end, you'll wind up doing things like: Producing a bunch of cheap wine to bribe local businesess with so that you can get better distribution deals. Buying vineyards in a prestigious region so that you can use that bonus to make your wine sell for more. Selling a wine exactly like your competitors, but more quickly, so that you can prevent them from making money off of domestic sales. Corner foreign markets for VPs. Enhance the taste, smell, looks or alcohol content of your wine to appeal to the ever-changing tastes of wine experts. Go deep into debt to afford an extra winery with the hope that you can make that money back before it starts to affect your score. If that sounds good, you'll have a good time. Plays well at any player count and stays vicious. Impermanent fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 17:11
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