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Munkeymon posted:*ohshit ohshit ohsit I didn't prepare for this one... OH!* "Yeah, that thing in the news about Google that you've totally heard about is totally why I left. Yep. That thing." *nailed it I got to unironically do this but for reddit, and actually it was true
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Aug 19, 2017 03:07
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My super casual job search yielded an offer compelling enough for me to quit my current job, and I accepted. Yay! My boss had me terminated, with severance, before I could put in my notice, because, she said, it was obvious I was unhappy and she wanted me to be able to look for a better fit without having to worry about money. Super yay!
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Aug 21, 2017 23:22
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Would moving to DevOps from a frontend role be a bad idea and / or impossible?
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Aug 22, 2017 01:13
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What do you mean by "DevOps"? A lot of people here would say that DevOps is a practice, not a role. Making sure Ops people are involved in the design phases, making sure SWE people are involved in the deployment phases (e.g. by putting them into the on-call rotation).
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Aug 22, 2017 01:38
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"Devops" has two primary meanings - the most common one by sheer mass of numbers is basically sysadmin 2.0 (or really, just sysadmin that got the chance to automate). The second one that most people that know that there are two meanings tend to think about is basically Agile practices beyond just software development processes. I'm going to guess that by asking if you should move into devops with the context of a role that you mean the first definition. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised anyone frontend besides one of my former coworkers would think about operations of any sort for a career path. Almost all ops / devops positions are on-call I've seen with little training available besides at the big tech comanies. Being on-call sucks unless you have basically no incidents, in which case your organization is perfect or your product is probably not actually being used much meaning you'll be out of a job soon (see: Effective Monitoring for why lack of incidents != reliability). Having to do 10+ hours of work / day while juggling a constant stream of transactional requests like "deploy this hacky, untested release for me and tell me how it goes, kthx" on top of writing software that impacts everyone around you constantly in a mostly thankless role for at best another 10% over a SWE (and capped business-wise due to ops being a cost center 99% of the time) is one of the most efficient paths to burnout I can imagine. I've seen some developers cite monotony with CRUD apps and I'll take that over re-deploying basic monitoring or yet another AWS lift and shift that takes like years to do because even that's faster than trying to attempt a cloud aware rearchitecture of the application(s). Until I see a sharp trend away from companies outside the top tech companies being organizationally bad at software I'll continue to advise engineers to stay out of ops.
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Aug 22, 2017 04:15
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minato posted:What do you mean by "DevOps"? A lot of people here would say that DevOps is a practice, not a role. Making sure Ops people are involved in the design phases, making sure SWE people are involved in the deployment phases (e.g. by putting them into the on-call rotation). I'd consider it, as a role, someone with either a developer or operations background who has some degree of specialization in tools and techniques around continuous integration and continuous delivery. I'd also consider a "devops role" to be a gigantic red flag that the company is playing buzzword bingo and has no idea what they're doing. Personally, I would never take a job as a "devops person" on a team. That just means I'm an additional silo of information who has to deal with headaches from every other role (networking, operations, developers, QA, etc).
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Aug 22, 2017 18:49
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I've seen descriptions of a "DevOps role" as someone who is responsible for making the DevOps practice happen. It's like Agile: team members may get the training and say they're on board with the idea, but it's usually up to a single person to make sure people adhere to the ideals and the process. E.g. when SWEs have a meeting to design a new service, the "DevOps role" person is responsible for ensuring that someone from Ops is present.
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Aug 22, 2017 19:03
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minato posted:I've seen descriptions of a "DevOps role" as someone who is responsible for making the DevOps practice happen. It's like Agile: team members may get the training and say they're on board with the idea, but it's usually up to a single person to make sure people adhere to the ideals and the process. E.g. when SWEs have a meeting to design a new service, the "DevOps role" person is responsible for ensuring that someone from Ops is present. On the flip side, I worked in a place where "DevOps" meant "we now have a 'DevOps Guy' who is the gatekeeper between devs and infra, he will only respond to pull requests containing puppet manifests, and he will actively prevent you from engaging with infra team so have fun with making decisions on system sizing and design."
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Aug 22, 2017 19:47
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DevOps just means 'a sysadmin that can program, probably'. It is neither a red flag nor a bad job if you like you know.... doing sysadmin meets programming stuff. When I had a "DevOps" role, I did stuff like manage puppet, capacity plan, manage load balancing, help architect inter-service communication, built software to do load balancing, built software to do config management, built software to do oncall scheduling, lead standardization of development tools and processes, lead (internal code) library standardization. Yes, it's a misnomer, oh well, so is everything in computers.
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Aug 22, 2017 21:46
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Well I'm officially old now, I just hired a 20-something masters CS/Statistics grad to basically maintain/perhaps someday rewrite a shitload of PHP and Perl. Considering that I thought it was only my burden until now, win. Not sure about how this will look on her resume though. I only got to have a say in the hiring because I became "Senior Programmer" some time ago. I still don't know what the hell differentiates senior from non, other than way more meetings and a certain frostiness from my ex colleagues. I still maintain all the poo poo I wrote ten years ago. Anyway. I'm getting into modifying electric guitars?
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Aug 23, 2017 02:04
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Since I'll be applying for jobs in a few months, I'm really starting to consider making a move from Data Warehousing/BI (4 years experience) into a more traditional Software Engineering position. I've done pretty much zero 'true' programming since college, but SQL/database are pretty ubiquitous in software engineering, right? I've also spent a lot of time in project management/team leading/requirements gathering, which transfer well. Pros of switching: -I'm pretty burnt out on 24/7 SQL -Jobs aren't as limited to cities with company headquarters -I miss traditional programming Cons: -Spending the next 4 months relearning all the poo poo I've forgotten since college -I don't have any github/etc. contributions to help with a job hunt -No idea if I'll actually enjoy doing python or whatever for a living -Harder job hunt? BI developers are hard as poo poo to find. Edit: Also I'm sure some of my burnout is from the god-awful situation I'm in (massive language barriers/isolation at current job), so I'm really struggling with this. Loutre fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 05:35
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Loutre posted:Since I'll be applying for jobs in a few months, I'm really starting to consider making a move from Data Warehousing/BI (4 years experience) into a more traditional Software Engineering position. If you have significant DB experience, I would try to leverage that. Look at some new DB technologies (NoSQL, Redis, etc) and get familiar with those and the performance implications vs traditional relational databases. That you are proficient in SQL will make you valuable doing that for all the developers who do NOT like SQL, and you can quickly fit into a database expert position.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:14
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Anyone here have experience working remotely with a company, particularly an across-US-coast setup? I'm advancing to the late stages for a company over in SF while I'm in Boston, and I'm a little unsure about how well they can support a remote employee. Has it been a positive experience, a negative experience? Any potential pitfalls? Any questions to ask of the company re: remote dev support/integration? I worry that my role as a remote employee would make it easier for me to end up marginalized or isolated somehow, leading to the position seeming unstable. It's something I've seen happen before.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:15
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Pollyanna posted:Anyone here have experience working remotely with a company, particularly an across-US-coast setup? I'm advancing to the late stages for a company over in SF while I'm in Boston, and I'm a little unsure about how well they can support a remote employee. Has it been a positive experience, a negative experience? Any potential pitfalls? Any questions to ask of the company re: remote dev support/integration? That is very likely. If you are going to be full time remote, AND the company is not completely focused around remote workers, I would not expect any special support. It will be on you to be proactive about advocating for yourself and your professional development.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:18
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Skandranon posted:That is very likely. If you are going to be full time remote, AND the company is not completely focused around remote workers, I would not expect any special support. It will be on you to be proactive about advocating for yourself and your professional development. I suppose it's fair enough that I should just nut up and take that over for real. It'd be a challenge, but it'd be important for me to learn.
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Aug 24, 2017 16:23
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I'll say from recent experience that you have to work much harder to be a "part of" things and it's also very dependent on the company in SF making any sort of effort to give a poo poo about its remote employees. One experience was that that didn't happen and it was a nightmare to get anything done and to stay up to date with the onsite team. Meetings and important conversations that are local only are the absolute worst aspect. I had another experience as a member of an onsite team that was constantly nagged (good!) by management and peers if any adhoc local meetings were taking place without pulling the remote guys in on Zoom / Slack. If there are any other remotes, I would want to talk to one. Iverron fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 24, 2017 |
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Aug 24, 2017 18:34
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Pollyanna posted:Anyone here have experience working remotely with a company, particularly an across-US-coast setup? I'm advancing to the late stages for a company over in SF while I'm in Boston, and I'm a little unsure about how well they can support a remote employee. Has it been a positive experience, a negative experience? Any potential pitfalls? Any questions to ask of the company re: remote dev support/integration? Working remote or even offsite from your team is a real challenge to stay engaged. However it can be a real step up if they have the techstack you are interested in. I say go for it, get out of it what you think you need to advance and move on to the next opportunity. I know you worry about job duration but I feel treated like a tradable commodity more and more each year so I no longer worry about it if I behave as such. My wife feels different and tends to stick with employers so ymmv. Eh, my point is: what would be a reason to move to something, what do they offer that is great and is it better than other places you can move to. Never switch jobs just to get away from something, you will end up in another job you hate.
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Aug 25, 2017 05:52
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That's a good point. I'm primarily looking to get away from the stupider parts of my current job (mediocre team lead, poor management, layoffs and people quitting in the recent past) such that my current one doesn't feel terrifically stable, but maybe I'm approaching it the wrong way by trying to just find a new one. That said, not having to go into an office every day is nice...but as you said, it's also highly dependent on whether they're properly set up to support a remote employee. Since they're working with a tech stack that sounds interesting (Clojure, some Java which is eh but I can tolerate it maybe) and on a technology that's more engaging than bog standard front-end, I think it'd be more interesting work. But, they also haven't quite proven that they can properly vet and support a remote employee - and if they can't, that's a deal-breaker for a remote setup. Questions I'm planning on asking: - How many of your employees are remote? - Of your employees that are remote, how much of an effort is made in including them in meetings, business decisions, standups, etc.? - How often are business decisions, meetings, etc. done offline or in-office (i.e. where remote employees are unavailable)? - What steps have you taken to make sure team knowledge is properly documented and communicated across the team? I think this about covers it - if I don't feel good on their answers to this, I'll probably pass on the position. Anything else I should ask?
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Aug 25, 2017 18:36
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"When you have a company barbecue, how do you compensate the remote employees?"
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Aug 25, 2017 18:39
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CPColin posted:"When you have a company barbecue, how do you compensate the remote employees?" You joke but I wonder if they're aware that a Boston software engineer expects a Boston software engineer-level salary and matching benefits. I've always gotten the impression that remote employees get shafted on salary.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:42
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I'm only half-joking. My PO at my last job was remote and had to suffer through all the "Sprint's over! Come have a beer!" emails and pizza party announcements. Also all the back-patting management did about the free snacks in the break room (while simultaneously lamenting that budgetary concerns were leading to cutbacks in the free snacks). But yeah, I did wonder how her salary translated. Here in San Luis Obispo County, the median home price is like $650k and she bought a giant mansion in Virginia for like $350k. I think there was something screwy with her maternity leave, too, because California's laws were different than Virginia's and the company itself was incorporated in Nevada, of all places.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:55
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Pollyanna posted:- Of your employees that are remote, how much of an effort is made in including them in meetings, business decisions, standups, etc.? I would word that more like "How do you make sure your remote employees are included in meetings, decisions and standups?" Presume they're doing it already in the question to be flattering. Pollyanna posted:You joke but I wonder if they're aware that a Boston software engineer expects a Boston software engineer-level salary and matching benefits. I've always gotten the impression that remote employees get shafted on salary. It's an SV company, right? You should expect an SV salary, which ought to be higher, AFAICT.
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Aug 25, 2017 18:57
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Munkeymon posted:I would word that more like "How do you make sure your remote employees are included in meetings, decisions and standups?" Presume they're doing it already in the question to be flattering. Thanks, I accidentally offend people a lot so the better wording is much appreciated  SF company, actually. Right in the middle of it I think. Something like this, right?
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Aug 25, 2017 19:05
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That's a useless figure. Salaries vary wildly dependent on a ton of different factor, you cannot average that across one sort-of-fleshed-out idea of a role across an entire region. I would expect an SF/SV company hiring a remote lvl1 or lvl2 engineer to pay between 80k and 130k. That's a huge range and all of it valid under some set of circumstances.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:13
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Javascript/Python dev trying to move into big dog enterprise jobs. Should I shoot for Java/JVM or C#/.NET.? I feel like Java has more openings but more competition. I've also enjoyed C# more but the tools for Java are better. Help I can't decide.
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Aug 25, 2017 20:26
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InfrastructureWeek posted:That's a useless figure. Salaries vary wildly dependent on a ton of different factor, you cannot average that across one sort-of-fleshed-out idea of a role across an entire region. I had the chat just now, actually, and it went alright with regards to the remote work - they were mostly concerned about whether I would feel lonely or isolated as a result of being remote, and that they were hesitant to hire a remote worker who has never worked remotely before. I told them that their concerns were valid, and that since I hadn't done full-time remote work before I didn't know how well I'd take to it, but that I felt relatively confident about it. I also gleaned more information on how they rope remote engineers (of which they have a few, mostly contractors though) into their meetings, discussions, etc. - and it seems pretty typical for a startup, which is to say it's Slack and Google Hangouts and some wikis.  Then the person speaking with me said that it was "later in the talks" for us to talk salary, and I thought "gently caress it" and brought up 120k. I was met with a few seconds of silence, "okay", and an even longer awkward silence.  Should I have delayed it longer?Thinking of it, I think it might be a better idea to remain at my current job for another year or two before I try and take a gamble on a new setup like remote work - I'd be in a less awkward position if it didn't work out and I had to find a different position. Still not 100% convinced about the remote setup - I do like having an office in a decent commuting distance, and other engineers to hang out with, and I don't exactly have a home office. Prolly need more time to think about it, cause it's a hard call to make.
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Aug 25, 2017 20:36
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Pollyanna posted:I had the chat just now, actually, and it went alright with regards to the remote work - they were mostly concerned about whether I would feel lonely or isolated as a result of being remote, and that they were hesitant to hire a remote worker who has never worked remotely before. I told them that their concerns were valid, and that since I hadn't done full-time remote work before I didn't know how well I'd take to it, but that I felt relatively confident about it. I also gleaned more information on how they rope remote engineers (of which they have a few, mostly contractors though) into their meetings, discussions, etc. - and it seems pretty typical for a startup, which is to say it's Slack and Google Hangouts and some wikis. If they didn't talk you down or at least look for approval, you screwed up. If you're not extremely confident in your ask, don't give the first number.
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Aug 25, 2017 20:44
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The Collector posted:Javascript/Python dev trying to move into big dog enterprise jobs. Should I shoot for Java/JVM or C#/.NET.? If you like the language better you're going to baseline hate the job less, IMO. Also the only deficient tool in C# land I'm aware of is NuGet. Other than that it's all better or equivalent over here.
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Aug 25, 2017 20:55
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leper khan posted:If they didn't talk you down or at least look for approval, you screwed up. If you're not extremely confident in your ask, don't give the first number. What the hell am I supposed to say when they're like "we need your expected salary right now"? Am I always gonna be putting it off? This is really weird 
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Aug 25, 2017 20:56
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Pollyanna posted:What the hell am I supposed to say when they're like "we need your expected salary right now"? Am I always gonna be putting it off? This is really weird "I don't have those figures in front of me, I can get back to you later today" Then they'll either say, "ok", "we are thinking X", or "we need your number right now" If they say the third thing, that tells you a lot about the company (and you should take whatever comes to mind and double it). If they say the second, that tells you what you need to know and you can go off and then come back with 20-30% more hoping for 15% more. If the first, look up recent figures for your experience/location/role and add 20% to the top end. If they flatly agreed to 120, it's possible their maximum allocation was 140-150. 
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Aug 25, 2017 21:07
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Pollyanna posted:What the hell am I supposed to say when they're like "we need your expected salary right now"? Am I always gonna be putting it off? This is really weird Deflect, then ask if they have a number in mind. Gets easier with practice.
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Aug 25, 2017 21:14
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leper khan posted:"I don't have those figures in front of me, I can get back to you later today" Oh, I don't think they flatly agreed to 120 - the person I was speaking to seemed to be put off by that number, like it was too high. That's why I got suspicious and worried. 120 is more or less the "add 20% to what you've making for top end" for the Boston area+my current value.
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Aug 25, 2017 21:14
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Pollyanna posted:Oh, I don't think they flatly agreed to 120 - the person I was speaking to seemed to be put off by that number, like it was too high. That's why I got suspicious and worried. It could have easily been under what they were expecting and they're talking you down anyways to save even more money. Never give the first number unless you're very confident in what number you're worth. You've been reading and posting in this thread for so long it's really weird that everyone has to tell you this.
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Aug 25, 2017 21:27
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Pollyanna you're basically the exception to  Maybe just go experience life or something ffs
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Aug 25, 2017 21:32
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InfrastructureWeek posted:Pollyanna you're basically the exception to same
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Aug 25, 2017 21:53
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Yeah we've said this in so many threads but just go do your own loving thing. Stop worrying so much about what others think is the right way to do things and just live your best life. Figure out your poo poo and what you want. Learn from your mistakes and capitalize on your successes. But jfc stop talking and do something for the love of God.
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Aug 25, 2017 22:52
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Pollyanna posted:Oh, I don't think they flatly agreed to 120 - the person I was speaking to seemed to be put off by that number, like it was too high. That's why I got suspicious and worried. I think it far more likely that the person was struck dumb by how stupid you were. Not only is 120k on the low end for anyone with more than a few years of experience, but they were delaying the conversation which is good for you and you decided to bring it up anyway. Use paysa.com over glassdoor as it gives a total compensation number. Salary numbers in SV are completely worthless because equity makes up at least a third of your compensation
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Aug 26, 2017 01:53
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The questions about remote work and worries about you not having done it before are pretty on-point. I had the same set of concerns raised by companies that know better. I recommend seeking work in Boston because I suspect you'd be much happier in a non-remote-working situation.
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Aug 26, 2017 03:47
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There once was a goon who was stuck in a well...
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Aug 26, 2017 10:33
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Looking for some goon advice. I have a bit more than 3 years experience. first 1.5 were on a healthcare web application, which was huge and I didn't learn much in the way of web development since the application had a whole framework, both front and back end, that the devs didn't really touch. Then I moved with the family to a different city (st. louis) and after a horrible 6 month stint with Boeing, I've been working at a company on a desktop WPF application. And after 14 months or so, it's become apparent that it's a dead end. I would really, really like to get into web and mobile development, but the catch-22 of course is that I don't really have those skills. Maybe I shouldn't have gotten to this point, but here I am. I just interviewed at a small-ish custom development shop, and while i wasn't terribly enthused anyway, they basically said they liked me as a developer but since most of what they do is web and I don't really have much web experience, they could only offer me what basically amounts to an entry level salary, which would be a 33% pay cut. Am I going to be totally stuck? Is there any way I can break into web and mobile development? I would start doing some side web projects on my own, but I honestly don't think I have the time, really, with a growing family, friends, and all that other "life" stuff. I think I'll have to try anyway, but is there anything else I can that would help?
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Aug 28, 2017 20:07
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