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double nine posted:dude, I've been to Cuba. It's poor as gently caress and if your message is "live like a third world shithole* to save our planet" then you've already lost. Cuba is far from a "third world shithole" they have a lower infant mortality than the US
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Aug 27, 2017 13:33
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enraged_camel posted:SavageGentleman is. Maybe you should pay some attention: quote:Have you processed the fact that global trade politics are a big reason why subsistence farmers are having such a bad time? Actually doesn't say "we should all return to the fields and become subsitence farmers" but don't let that stop you from dunking on some strawmen.
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Aug 27, 2017 13:36
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Cuba is poor by accident. Fidel Castro did not come to power promising to keep them poor in the name of the environment, or even to prioritize the environment over economic growth. He, like just about every other leader in the modern world, promised economic growth. He wanted to lift Cubans out of poverty. Unfortunately the method he chose was turning the country into a giant sugar plantation for the Soviet Union, which led to an economic depression when the USSR dissolved that it still hasn't fully recovered from. Oh, and there was a big embargo that wasn't doing them any favors either. Holding it up as an environmental success story is insane.
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Aug 27, 2017 13:44
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Oh I'm not saying Cuba is an environmental success story just that it isn't a "third world shithole".
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Aug 27, 2017 13:50
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NewForumSoftware posted:Oh I'm not saying Cuba is an environmental success story just that it isn't a "third world shithole". Yeah I dislike that term a lot. I was mainly responding to Digi, who seems to operate under the delusion that Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries want to keep the poor poor, when their whole philosophy is more like the exact opposite.
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Aug 27, 2017 13:53
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double nine posted:dude, I've been to Cuba. It's poor as gently caress and if your message is "live like a third world shithole* to save our planet" then you've already lost. Because no-one wants to live like that when there are other alternatives. The Cubans sure as gently caress don't want to live like that. Also, Cuba exports a lot of commercial agricultural goods (sugar, tobacco) in order to import foodstuffs. Self-reliant my rear end. There are more than 3 billion people in the world living in poverty. Are you suggesting, in the climate change thread, that there exists a pathway where we can bring every single person in the world to first world conditions? Cause if you are, you are an idiot. But if your suggesting that first worlders like yourself will be incredibly resistant to climate change action that would diminish your current standard of living due to selfishness, then yes, I agree with you.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:00
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NewForumSoftware posted:Oh I'm not saying Cuba is an environmental success story just that it isn't a "third world shithole".
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Aug 27, 2017 14:00
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It's just endlessly hilarious watching goony motherfuckers moaning that subsistence farming is a miserable hellish existence where the living envy the dead, and then you have a country next door that successfully avoided famine thanks to subsistence farming and now has better health outcomes then the US. But in the end, is it really worth it to live if you are a poor?
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Aug 27, 2017 14:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, it's second world. I kind of hate the terms "first world" "second world" and "third world" but yes, Cuba is closer to China or Russia than South Sudan. Digiwizzard posted:It's just endlessly hilarious watching goony motherfuckers moaning that subsistence farming is a miserable hellish existence where the living envy the dead, and then you have a country next door that successfully avoided famine thanks to subsistence farming and now has better health outcomes then the US. But in the end, is it really worth it to live if you are a poor? "subsistence farming" is miserable because it's a term that describes miserable farming. it's just a bad term to hold on to, you don't want everyone toiling in the fields to provide their own food. that being said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with advocating for more local sources of food and for the implementation of more sustainable farming methods the choice isn't industrial farming or subsistence farming, it's about modifying our economy to properly value the externalities people are right that most people won't sign up for lower standards of living voluntarily if there's a viable alternative. unfortunately they don't understand that the currently viable "alternative" simply won't be in a world where we properly price carbon emissions, environmental damage, etc NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 14:02
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*ahem* Actually, I've been to Cuba. I was there for two weeks on a trip with my family. And we thought it would be cool to have a bbq on the beach so my brother went to the market to get some burgers but the market didn't have burgers so we couldn't have a bbq and had to have dinner in the resort. disgusting. no way can fight climate change like this. I'll wait till invent fusion thank you very much
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Aug 27, 2017 14:04
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Minge Binge posted:There are more than 3 billion people in the world living in poverty. Are you suggesting, in the climate change thread, that there exists a pathway where we can bring every single person in the world to first world conditions? Of course there is. Many countries have transformed from poor to rich, or at the very least to less poor.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:07
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Also it's worth mentioning that for all the "but do you want third worlders to starve! that's what will happen if you oppose industrial farming!" people aren't dying in the developing world because we (as a global society) don't have enough food, it's completely a distribution problem.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:08
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NewForumSoftware posted:I kind of hate the terms "first world" "second world" and "third world" but yes, Cuba is closer to China or Russia than South Sudan.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:14
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Gotta love shithead American tourists LMFAOing it up to the idea that there are negative aspects to poverty and that poor people might want to escape it
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Aug 27, 2017 14:14
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Digiwizzard posted:It's just endlessly hilarious watching goony motherfuckers moaning that subsistence farming is a miserable hellish existence where the living envy the dead, and then you have a country next door that successfully avoided famine thanks to subsistence farming and now has better health outcomes then the US. But in the end, is it really worth it to live if you are a poor? I live in area with some of the shittiest growing weather in north america. Not only that, it's the poorest (That's not including mexico). Many older people here had to rely on subsistence farming. Now that the province has urbanized and developed the infrastructure for transportation, subsistence farming isn't required. But guess what, people actually like gardening and growing their own food. There's a huge culture of gardening, foraging and hunting here. The parents teach their kids how the land can nourish them. And new generations continue that tradition. Because It's actually a pretty dope thing to do. Community gardens, bullshitting with your neighbors how to get rid of slugs, picking berries with your loved one, seeing your kid get his mind blown when he picks a zucchini the size of his torso, hunting with your buddies. You stupid loving nerds need to realize that you can live a meaningful and happy existence without you're $5000 computers to play your dumb rear end games. nerds
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Aug 27, 2017 14:17
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Thug Lessons posted:Gotta love shithead American tourists LMFAOing it up to the idea that there are negative aspects to poverty and that poor people might want to escape it This is the exact rhetorical style Stephan Miller used while debating Jim Acosta.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:24
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NewForumSoftware posted:Also it's worth mentioning that for all the "but do you want third worlders to starve! that's what will happen if you oppose industrial farming!" people aren't dying in the developing world because we (as a global society) don't have enough food, it's completely a distribution problem. I don't think anyone is really making that specific claim. Obviously poor countries don't rely on industrial farming for their food supply. However without economic growth and industrial development the third world can, at best, remain in poverty, and more realistically they'd slip further into poverty to the point of causing mass death.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:25
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Thug Lessons posted:Gotta love shithead American tourists LMFAOing it up to the idea that there are negative aspects to poverty and that poor people might want to escape it god you are so loving stupid I guess that's what you can expect from liberals now. Whenever climate change is being discussed, all of suddenly liberals care about third worlders. "Oh, actually, I shouldn't change my way of life until every poor person has had an opportunity to live my lifestyle. Let me know when that happens and then we can talk climate change" Kindest Forums User fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 14:26
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Minge Binge posted:I live in area with some of the shittiest growing weather in north america. Not only that, it's the poorest (That's not including mexico). Many older people here had to rely on subsistence farming. Now that the province has urbanized and developed the infrastructure for transportation, subsistence farming isn't required. But guess what, people actually like gardening and growing their own food. There's a huge culture of gardening, foraging and hunting here. The parents teach their kids how the land can nourish them. And new generations continue that tradition. Because It's actually a pretty dope thing to do. Community gardens, bullshitting with your neighbors how to get rid of slugs, picking berries with your loved one, seeing your kid get his mind blown when he picks a zucchini the size of his torso, hunting with your buddies. Okay now do one defending slavery. Pining for that simple, antebellum life...
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Aug 27, 2017 14:26
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NewForumSoftware posted:Cuba is far from a "third world shithole" they have a lower infant mortality than the US Have you seen the state of their car culture though?
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Aug 27, 2017 14:27
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Thug Lessons posted:Okay now do one defending slavery. Pining for that simple, antebellum life... what? please don't tell me your suggesting that growing your own food is one step away from society descending into slavery.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:30
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Minge Binge posted:god you are so loving stupid Get over yourself you smug little cretin. The poor people of the world spit on your reactionary romanticization of poverty and will drag themselves out of it whether you want them to or not.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:33
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How far can you push this gimmick? Is it racist to be opposed to coal power plants?
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Aug 27, 2017 14:42
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goats
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Aug 27, 2017 14:48
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Minge Binge posted:what? No, I am saying that your ridiculous and idiotic defense of poverty as a simple, pastoral life echos, almost word for word, the neo-Confederate defense of slavery as a benign, romantic institution.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:48
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Thug Lessons posted:That's not what overshoot and collapse is. "Overshoot" refers to population growth in access of ecological carry capacity, and "collapse" refers to population decline in response. Humans exceeded the earth's natural carrying capacity sometime in distant prehistory, but there was never a corresponding collapse, because humans are too adaptable to be subject to that ecological process in the way that animals are. There is, ultimately, some sort of limit of how many humans can live on earth, but it's not an ecological one, and it's probably far in excess of what human populations will actual reach. Hundreds of billions or trillions, whereas the population is likely to stabilize mid-century around 10 billion. Hey, this is ludicrous. Fire and agriculture may have allowed us much higher than normal capacity, but the limits still exist and local populations through history regularly overshoot and collapse. Humans are just much better at walking away and leaving entirely gutted ecosystems behind. Also, really? Hundreds of billions, or even trillions of 150 pound mammals roaming the Earth? Where does the energy come from?
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Aug 27, 2017 15:00
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The Groper posted:Also, really? Hundreds of billions, or even trillions of 150 pound mammals roaming the Earth? Where does the energy come from?
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Aug 27, 2017 15:03
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Sorry I take this rather personally because I live well below the poverty line and I shouldn't have to listen to some middle-class scumbag who spends his holidays in Caribbean resorts explain how I should be more like Cuban peasants and live in abject poverty rather than merely relative poverty. Nah, how about you do that, and leave me the gently caress alone.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:09
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NewForumSoftware posted:Cuba is far from a "third world shithole" they have a lower infant mortality than the US Pro tip: most of the good stuff you hear about Cuba's medical system is fabricated. This is commonly known among Western doctors, especially those who have done volunteer work in Cuban hospitals. For one thing, all statistics are disseminated by the Cuban government, which has a strong interest in upholding the country's reputation as a "medical success story against all odds." Cuba makes $2.5 billion annually sending its doctors abroad, and that's a huge amount of money for the cash-strapped government. Rigorous studies are very hard to come by and independent verification is impossible. Aside from that, Cuban medical records are literally kept on paper notebooks that are passed from doctor to doctor. Stuff gets lost all the time and even when it doesn't, older records are nearly impossible to decipher. So when Cuba says "our preventive care is great" and "our infant mortality is really low" you need to take it with a huge grain of salt. Even WHO's statistics come straight from the Cuban government. Seriously y'all should read anecdotes by Western doctors who have worked in Cuba. They describe hospitals where clean running water is hard to come by, doors fall off their hinges and operating rooms are not disinfected properly. Cockroaches crawl all over the place and floors are stained with vomit, blood, and various other bodily fluids. I mean we can debate about whether Cuba is second world or third world but at the day one thing is clear: Cuba should not be upheld as a model for anything.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:15
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enraged_camel posted:Seriously y'all should read anecdotes by Western doctors who have worked in Cuba. They describe hospitals where clean running water is hard to come by, doors fall off their hinges and operating rooms are not disinfected properly. Cockroaches crawl all over the place and floors are stained with vomit, blood, and various other bodily fluids. I have a cousin that did med school in Cuba. She moved back a couple years after finishing for QoL and professional opportunities reasons, but won't stop praising Cuban med. So that's the Western doctor anecdote I'm going with, if we're putting forward anecdotes as evidence of fact.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:24
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Conspiratiorist posted:I have a cousin that did med school in Cuba. I've heard that it depends heavily on the hospital. The ones serving the wealthy are fairly modern and well-run. Most however aren't. I guess what in saying is: don't believe any statistic that comes out of Cuba, or any other country where the government controls all information coming in and out.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:31
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I would be very cautious about reliance on anecdotes for drawing sweeping conclusions about Cuba's medical system. If you want to claim they're fabricating a whole swath of medical statistics it should be grounded in something more substantial.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:40
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enraged_camel posted:I guess what in saying is: don't believe any statistic that comes out of Cuba, or any other country where the government controls all information coming in and out. Why don't you tell the CIA and the UN that? They seem to have no problem publishing numbers enraged_camel posted:I mean we can debate about whether Cuba is second world or third world but at the day one thing is clear: Cuba should not be upheld as a model for anything. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/ebola/11375422/Cuban-doctors-take-leading-role-in-fighting-Ebola.html NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 15:47
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enraged_camel posted:I've heard that it depends heavily on the hospital. The ones serving the wealthy are fairly modern and well-run. Most however aren't. She did practice in lovely rural clinics so  Cuba might be a poor country that can't afford the best equipment and infrastructure across its entire territory, but the burden of proof here lies on those claiming it isn't an example of resounding success in socialized medicine.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:55
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There's an entirely rational explanation for how Cuba could maintain high health statistics despite poor medical infrastructure: they have the lowest patient-to-doctor ratio on Earth.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:07
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Thug Lessons posted:I would be very cautious about reliance on anecdotes for drawing sweeping conclusions about Cuba's medical system. If you want to claim they're fabricating a whole swath of medical statistics it should be grounded in something more substantial. When it comes to dealing with authoritarian governments, anecdotes tend to be more reliable than official statistics. I mean if China released statistics showing a stellar human rights record we would all laugh, right? Same thing here. Never believe stuff that cannot be independently and reliably verified. That holds true for official statistics and statements as well as scientific research (which has to be peer reviewed and ideally repeatable/falsifiable).
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Aug 27, 2017 16:13
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enraged_camel posted:When it comes to dealing with authoritarian governments, anecdotes tend to be more reliable than official statistics. So where are the independent international studies and watchdog groups evidencing that Cuba's healthcare isn't as good as the statistics their government shows?
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Aug 27, 2017 16:15
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Conspiratiorist posted:So where are the independent international studies and watchdog groups evidencing that Cuba's healthcare isn't as good as the statistics their government shows? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/5-myths-about-cuba/2016/03/25/44f0b3e2-f21e-11e5-89c3-a647fcce95e0_story.html quote:But while Cuba made great gains in primary and preventive care after the revolution, advanced health care is flagging. In the famously closed country, reliable statistics and rigorous studies are impossible to come by, but anecdotally, it appears that the health system used by average Cubans is in crisis. According to a report by the Institute for War & Peace Reporting, hospitals “are generally poorly maintained and short of staff and medicines.” The writer visited facilities in Havana such as the Calixto García, 10 de Octubre and Miguel Enrique hospitals and describes them in an advanced state of neglect and deterioration. In the 10 de Octubre, “the floors are stained and surgeries and wards are not disinfected. Doors do not have locks and their frames are coming off. Some bathrooms have no toilets or sinks, and the water supply is erratic. Bat droppings, cockroaches, mosquitos [sic] and mice are all in evidence.” Link to the report in article (I'm phone posting)
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Aug 27, 2017 16:22
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enraged_camel posted:When it comes to dealing with authoritarian governments, anecdotes tend to be more reliable than official statistics. This a huge derail so this will be my last post on the subject but no, I don't believe that's true at all.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:23
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The past few pages have been a fantastic revelation of who actually cares about the significant decline in Irving standards which is inherent in combating climate change, and who just wants to keep climbing the western consumer ladder at the expense of every living thing on earth. gently caress all, y'all (mostly) a bunch of hypocritical sycophants happy to gently caress the planet for your own comfort.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:24
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