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AngusPodgorny posted:On the subject of feeling smart, they include a mystery to speculate about, the Chandrian, which appeals to some people. Like Lost, Twin Peaks, can't think of a book series offhand because it's not something I care about.
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Aug 25, 2017 21:07
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I remember back when I thought the book was gonna be about finding his parent's killer who also happened to be mythical god like beings with mysterious and ruthless intentions.....then it turned out to be an indepth inventory management and a mythical currency exchange treatise.
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Aug 25, 2017 22:49
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SpacePig posted:A: I really enjoyed these books. BravestOfTheLamps posted:It's telling that every claim that the books are entertaining is accompanied by a warning not to take such claims at a face value. They're just opinions. BravestOfTheLamps posted:The confusion of "parts" with "sequences" is also important. Instead of things like plotting and dialogue (all parts of a story) being entertaining, it's just some random sequences, like islands in a sea of dreck. Anybody can point to a sequence that fulfills the minimum requirements to not be unreadable, so it's hardly impressive. it's funny because he did exactly the thing you said he would do
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Aug 25, 2017 23:18
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BoL is entertaining to watch, but is very poorly conceived and written.
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Aug 25, 2017 23:25
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ChickenWing posted:it's funny because he did exactly the thing you said he would do It's true, though, and no attempted gotcha will avail you. People who claim the books are entertaining do their best to stay on the level of abstraction and generalization, at most saying that a sequence was fun or that the prose doesn't make you notice the flow of time. You could bring up stuff like wish-fulfilment fantasy as entertaining people, but no one wants to admit that it entertained them. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 23:27
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I don't really know why anyone wants to prove that they're entertained by the books.
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Aug 25, 2017 23:36
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Solice Kirsk posted:BoL is entertaining to watch, but is very poorly conceived and written. He's already decided that the books are objectively bad, with no redeeming qualities, and as such any arguments about enjoying them (even subjectively so) are immediately dismissed.
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Aug 25, 2017 23:53
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Yes, indeed, I have already decided that these books are bad, and in brute consideration of their page-count, have no redeeming qualities when compared against their simple physical volume. After all, I've read them. Do you imagine that it's some kind of faux-pas to pass judgement on books that have already been out for years? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 23:55
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jivjov posted:He's already decided that the books are objectively bad, with no redeeming qualities, and as such any arguments about enjoying them (even subjectively so) are immediately dismissed. Remember that thing you said you would do?
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Aug 25, 2017 23:56
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HIJK posted:Remember that thing you said you would do? Eh. I decided that I don't own BotL anything (especially after he came and tried to start a slap fight with me in a different thread). I like the Kingkiller books; and I don't need to justify it to anyone.
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Aug 26, 2017 00:03
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jivjov doesn't believe in truth, that's why he can't say anything meaningful about the books. Thus all the arguing about how it's impossible to state anything objectively because it's rude or something.
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Aug 26, 2017 00:06
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jivjov posted:Eh. I decided that I don't own BotL anything (especially after he came and tried to start a slap fight with me in a different thread). I like the Kingkiller books; and I don't need to justify it to anyone. alright, see you in the Breath of the Wild thread dude
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Aug 26, 2017 00:31
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jivjov posted:Eh. I decided that I don't own BotL anything (especially after he came and tried to start a slap fight with me in a different thread). I like the Kingkiller books; and I don't need to justify it to anyone. What about saying you'd elaborate on your assertion Rothfuss has done a good job depicting a diverse array of women in his narrative, with examples from the texts? That was almost a year ago you said you'd do that.
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Aug 26, 2017 00:41
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jivjov posted:Eh. I decided that I don't own BotL anything (especially after he came and tried to start a slap fight with me in a different thread). I like the Kingkiller books; and I don't need to justify it to anyone. 
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Aug 26, 2017 02:01
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Reene posted:What about saying you'd elaborate on your assertion Rothfuss has done a good job depicting a diverse array of women in his narrative, with examples from the texts? That was almost a year ago you said you'd do that. He can't because these passages don't exist.
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Aug 26, 2017 02:45
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jivjov posted:Eh. I decided that I don't own BotL anything (especially after he came and tried to start a slap fight with me in a different thread). I like the Kingkiller books; and I don't need to justify it to anyone. Sure you trying to go up against BoTL is like a playground kid picking a fight with a Navy Seal but god drat is your complete obtuse mentality to what BoTL has been trying to do is the icing on the cake. "I like this book" "What do you like about it? I criticize X,Y,Z based on technical merits and literary standards as compared to examples of good writing. Enlightening me" "YOU CANT CONTROL MY THOUGHTS THE BOOK IS GOOD BECAUSE I LIKE IT!" I'll help out: What I liked about the book was at the time when reading it Kvothe was basically an awesome badass who smacks around poo poo talkers, never gets into serious trouble, and manages to have "Big drat Hero" moments where he saves the day in a dramatic fashion with sick burns left and right. Then after discussing it and reading commentary I realized its essentially wish-fulfillment fanfiction and those situations only exist because the author made them exist solely for the purpose of Kvothe being shown as a complete badass. Nothing bad happens to him that isn't immediately resolved. It made me realize those "epic" moments are not the hallmark of good writing but a quick instant gratification feel good scene. Nothing is built or developed from those encounters other then maintaining a consistent feeling that Kvothe really is superior to everyone. There is no character growth or progress since Kvothe goes from dunking on Ambrose to dunking on the Duke's wife in the same way 2000 pages apart despite a world of experiences and 'trauma'. I like some of the terrible overly florid prose because when you don't think about it you get a sense of wonder and mystery even though by breaking it down it seems like complete nonsense and doesn't even hold up to its own internal logic. What I still like is that while reading it you really feel like either Kvothe or the author doesn't really get just how much of an rear end in a top hat Kvothe looks like and reading it from the perspective of "everyone but the narrator probably thinks he's a piece of poo poo" makes it a fun read when you imagine every time Kvothe talks someone is making a jerk off motion behind his back and the women he flirts with and claims to woo and romance probably use him as an example of a terrible sex decision they made, like "Yeah, always went for music guys but holy poo poo I could not stand to listen to him talk he compared me to a ditty after bragging about banging a sex goddess" I kind of liked the technical aspect of the magic and the rules and systems in place because technical explanations appeal to me, but the more bogged down by rules it gets the less interesting it became. The original stuff he learned where he hosed himself over and nearly killed himself was better because it seemed like the system was this cruel and unforgiving master where there are rules you don't know and you keep edging closer to the fire hoping to not get burned. The idea of secret societies seeking to control information and killing all those who speak of them is an interesting place to go but after 2 books it's been less then 2-3 paragraphs of detail so why bother push a mystery when its not incrementally dished out with false flags or possible truths. Some massive grand reveal doesn't mean much without context and build-up. jivjov, you can explain and highlight parts of the book you like, pieces of context, certain plots, specific characters, and just say that you enjoy the overall experience like millions of other people who enjoy trashy genre fiction as a hobby. It doesn't have to be well written or have dynamic female characters to scratch an irrational desire in the human brain. BravestOfTheLamps posted:jivjov doesn't believe in truth, that's why he can't say anything meaningful about the books. Thus all the arguing about how it's impossible to state anything objectively because it's rude or something. Have you read the Lies of Locke Lamora? They seem a lot like the Kingkiller stories but terrible poo poo is always happening to the core character and he basically struggles and suffers to just scrape by and crawl back to semi-good status which isn't really that good. It would benefit from a similar tear down like you did with Rothfuss.
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Aug 26, 2017 03:07
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I have. They're bad but not exactly Let's Read material. I'd rather have Caligula: Divine Carnage if I'm doing another one.
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Aug 26, 2017 09:00
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jivjov posted:Eh. I decided that I don't own BotL anything (especially after he came and tried to start a slap fight with me in a different thread). I like the Kingkiller books; and I don't need to justify it to anyone.  Good job making BotL's point yet again. pentyne posted:I'll help out: What I liked about the book was at the time when reading it Kvothe was basically an awesome badass who smacks around poo poo talkers, never gets into serious trouble, What books were you reading? Kingkiller is basically a rube goldberg machine of Kvothe loving up and his first encounter with Ambrose involves him being a self-entitled poo poo who Ambrose dunks on so loving hard that Kvothe still can't see his own fault when retelling the story years later as an adult.
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Aug 26, 2017 17:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I don't really know why anyone wants to prove that they're entertained by the books. I think you're correct and your analysis is on the money. However the idea that people don't really like the books, they're just tricking themselves into it is dumb. People have given plenty of valid personal reasons for liking these books. "The hero man does hero man stuff" is enough for them. Sometimes people like garbage for garbage reasons, dude. This is a dead end that just makes you look petty. In fact, it gives them an out to regard your criticism as ranting.
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Aug 26, 2017 18:24
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The wheel of the thread turns, and posters come and pass, leaving arguments that become insults. Insults fade into shitposting, and even shitposting is long forgotten when the posters that gave it birth post again.
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Aug 26, 2017 19:46
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Democratic Pirate posted:The wheel of the thread turns, and posters come and pass, leaving arguments that become insults. Insults fade into shitposting, and even shitposting is long forgotten when the posters that gave it birth post again. And in strange aeons, even sympathy may sympathize.
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Aug 26, 2017 22:29
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BravestOftheLamps what genre/fantasy fiction do you like? Are there any you really love? Or do you read them partially for entertainment and partially just to hate on them?
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Aug 27, 2017 03:15
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He said somewhere upthread he really loves the Shannara series.
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Aug 27, 2017 07:52
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porfiria posted:He said somewhere upthread he really loves the Shannara series. Completely true. The Shannara series is obviously greatest literary epic of the 20th Century.
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Aug 27, 2017 07:56
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Aug 27, 2017 09:04
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genre fantasy is hollow mule balls (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 27, 2017 11:59
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Let's parade around Gene Wolfe like we tend to in these moments.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:05
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Let's not. I shudder to think what would happen if BotL got pointed in that direction. I like Wolfe and want to keep liking him, damnit.
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Aug 27, 2017 14:13
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I'd really like to try to do an edited version of NotW like the Topher Grace Star Wars Prequel edit. But I'm editing two novels right now. Maybe just the first couple of chapters...
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Aug 27, 2017 14:59
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Gene Wolfe is a Good Writer.
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Aug 27, 2017 19:57
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BananaNutkins posted:Let's parade around Gene Wolfe like we tend to in these moments. this rothfuss feller, he's no Italo Calvino I tell ya what
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Aug 27, 2017 21:28
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The future Patrick Rothuss is N.K. Jemisin. Overrated, overhyped, bullshit prose. Second person shenanigans for now reason other than obfuscation of a sucky plot twist. I could do a BoTL length tirade on why her the Hugo-winner The Fifth Season is garbage.
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Aug 27, 2017 21:40
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BananaNutkins posted:The future Patrick Rothuss is N.K. Jemisin. Overrated, overhyped, bullshit prose. Second person shenanigans for now reason other than obfuscation of a sucky plot twist. I could do a BoTL length tirade on why her the Hugo-winner The Fifth Season is garbage. I mean, not in the Rothfuss thread, but go ahead somewhere.
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Aug 27, 2017 22:12
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BananaNutkins posted:The future Patrick Rothuss is N.K. Jemisin. Overrated, overhyped, bullshit prose. Second person shenanigans for now reason other than obfuscation of a sucky plot twist. I could do a BoTL length tirade on why her the Hugo-winner The Fifth Season is garbage. Please do. The premise sounds like it lends itself to the overtly exaggerated and over explained without an ace writer to show and not tell. The whole job race caste naming also sounds trite.
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Aug 27, 2017 22:52
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BananaNutkins posted:The future Patrick Rothuss is N.K. Jemisin. Overrated, overhyped, bullshit prose. Second person shenanigans for now reason other than obfuscation of a sucky plot twist. I could do a BoTL length tirade on why her the Hugo-winner The Fifth Season is garbage. You're out of your mind.
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Aug 27, 2017 23:15
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Jemisin is a bad writer, and I actually wrote a short review for another of her novels.
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Aug 27, 2017 23:22
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These books suffer from reading them close together, as all the flaws in the first become clearer and clearer as you power through the second, until Kvothe is learning to be the best at loving, ever, and you realize that wait this is actually really bad
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Aug 28, 2017 00:39
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Jemisin is a bad writer, and I actually wrote a short review for another of her novels. You seem to have really latched on to the idea that if a story is not written with the mindset of its time then it's worthless. How much writing from the medieval or renaissance period from a first person perspective is there to draw on? And wouldn't it feel incredibly fake in the hands of a modern writer? If every book set during that period has to be written like Children of Hurin then most fantasy would be unreadable to me.
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Aug 28, 2017 01:30
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Ccs posted:You seem to have really latched on to the idea that if a story is not written with the mindset of its time then it's worthless. How much writing from the medieval or renaissance period from a first person perspective is there to draw on? And wouldn't it feel incredibly fake in the hands of a modern writer? If every book set during that period has to be written like Children of Hurin then most fantasy would be unreadable to me. There were mentioned examples, and the most salient point seems to be that the writer wants to construct and work within this idea of a completely surreal and mystical world but writes dialogue and characterization that wouldn't be out of place when describing a random borough in NYC. BoTL has often widely criticized the use of modern day social conventions in the Kvothe books, mostly because just from the setting, plot, previous descriptions, etc. you wouldn't expect a bunch of random villagers in a barely medieval society to have modern views on social and sexual issues but medieval views for everything plot related. quote:Characters speak (and act) in approximately three tones: proud and bullying, defiant and simmering, or acquiescent and servile – all dependent on their current social position. And Jemisin has a political cartoonist’s sense of subtlety: quote:The fantasy of The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms is that of a modern liberal, frustrated by their powerlessness in the face of fundamentalism and inequality. That the viewpoint character is also a royalt reveals the inherent contradiction. A liberal value system is fundamentally opposed to that of the Medieval world, yet Jemisin is ultimately enamoured with the mystery and power of royalty, and falls for New Age dreams – in her mythology, the Mother Goddess has been usurped by the Abrahamic pretender, who in the end is overthrown to restore a more holistic state of things. The oppressive fundamentalists and nobles that serve him are thus also usurpers. It is the lie the fuels fantasies of power and elitism: that masters are not evil because that is the nature of masters, but because we would be better masters. This is Jemisin’s inheritance of idiocy. It's fantasy only in the sense of the core story while everything that builds out the concept in constructed in completely modern tones and sensibilities for the purpose of creating a dynamic easy to understand and relate to at the expense of any value beyond a surface level reading. There is such a world of difference between books like Kingkiller and Jemisin and actual literature. Not to say fantasy can't be literature or even just better written then what people are used to, its just that a lot of genre fiction is geared to be easily consumed and not thought about. They don't want their doorstopper epic to be confusing and difficult to understand unless you have a familiarity with a wide body of literature and styles. The main thing behind people hating Kingkiller is how hyped up other people are about it and not understanding or accepting its flaws or problems. Same with Ready Player One, which is a loving shitshow of a book but if you wanted to read something that jerked you off while saying how great your childhood favorites were and nothing will ever compare then it is the only book you will ever need to read. I think one of my favorite book reviews was of RP1's sequel Armada which gave it an umbigious F and said that it was so bad it brings into question whether RP1 was any good at all or just the raving wish fulfillment of a man child.
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Aug 28, 2017 03:22
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When you are writing in any setting you need to make sure that setting comes alive and differentiates itself from reality. If you're writing a medieval fantasy story but everyone talks like a 21st century American than you're not dedicated to bringing your setting alive. You can say a lot of poo poo about The Lord of the Rings, the granddaddy to all of this, but Tolkien always made sure that the characters, their backgrounds, and the places they traveled to were different from anything else in the real world. No one talks like a hobbit or the Rohirrim in real life but they're distinctive enough to be very different when they're together on the same page. That may sound like a set of small details but writing a believable fictional story is totally dependent on those small details. Rothfuss not putting in the shitwork of bringing that to life is indicative of his entire approach.
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Aug 28, 2017 03:51
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