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SulphagneSocialist posted:Yle found a thing. Yle owns. A consult firm hired by the Ministry of Traffic confirms that the privatization is just a boondoggle to make money at the taxpayer's expense: quote:Kilpailulle avautuva Suomen henkilöjunaliikenne kiinnostaa Ruotsin suuria toimijoita. Muun muassa Tukholman paikallisjunaliikennettä ja metroa operoiva MTR Nordic kertoo olevansa kiinnostunut haastamaan VR:n Suomen tarjouskilpailuissa. Yhtiö kuuluu isoon hongkongilaiseen MTR-konserniin. Maailma muuttuu, Anttiseni.
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Aug 26, 2017 14:55
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Finnish privatization really is the saddest thing, anywhere else in the world the politicians would at least get some massive bribes for it from the companies but here it's just pure gullibility
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Aug 26, 2017 15:43
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hÄhÄhÄ Tillasella on ruma hattu ja junes on avopotilas. näemmä noi myös antaa kyuulle ihan älyttömästi suunvuoroa, tietäisivätpä että se runkkaa animelle.
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Aug 26, 2017 17:42
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Da Gaspodin posted:hÄhÄhÄ Tillasella on ruma hattu ja junes on avopotilas. näemmä noi myös antaa kyuulle ihan älyttömästi suunvuoroa, tietäisivätpä että se runkkaa animelle. Viiltävä analyysi poliittisesta tilanteesta Suomen Lapissa.
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Aug 26, 2017 17:51
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Jerry Cotton posted:Viiltävä analyysi poliittisesta tilanteesta Suomen Lapissa. I think he was referring to some event in Kamppi, I saw de Witt doing his martyr act to streamers and Kyuu Eturaitti hanging nearby there, along with a heavy police presence in riot gear. Seemed rather oddly scaled in comparison to the amount of people in the square, but I was just passing by.
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Aug 26, 2017 22:55
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Rexroom posted:I think he was referring to some event in Kamppi, I saw de Witt doing his martyr act to streamers and Kyuu Eturaitti hanging nearby there, along with a heavy police presence in riot gear. Seemed rather oddly scaled in comparison to the amount of people in the square, but I was just passing by. All right substitute "Karjala Oblastissa" for "Suomen Lapissa" then.
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Aug 26, 2017 23:26
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Berner is doubling down on dismantling VR.  
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Aug 27, 2017 06:57
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Just what are these new "services" that will be so vital for passengers in the new
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Aug 27, 2017 07:37
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bussiyhtiöille enemmän asiakkaita
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Aug 27, 2017 12:58
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SulphagneSocialist posted:Yle found a thing. Yle owns. A consult firm hired by the Ministry of Traffic confirms that the privatization is just a boondoggle to make money at the taxpayer's expense: VR loses monopoly position, VR's value falls, goons enraged ("ARE NATIONAL ASSETS"), consumers most likely happy. Also: quote:Lisää kysyntää junamatkoille tuskin saadaan, jos valtio ei investoi eli pane lisää rahaa ratoihin.
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Aug 27, 2017 16:43
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Geriatric Pirate posted:VR loses monopoly position, VR's value falls, goons enraged ("ARE NATIONAL ASSETS"), consumers most likely happy. It's not as clear-cut as you put it. While the amount of passengers has increased and tickets have cheapened in Sweden, passengers are not happy about late trains and the confusing plethora of ticket sale websites of different companies. If your train even works in the first place. But hey, cheap tickets.
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Aug 27, 2017 22:53
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Geriatric Pirate posted:consumers most likely happy I'll just post something opposite to reality, that'll help my argument.
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Aug 28, 2017 00:21
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Geriatric Pirate posted:VR loses monopoly position, VR's value falls, goons enraged ("ARE NATIONAL ASSETS"), consumers most likely happy. Please elaborate on what is the exact mechanism that will lower ticket prices, when the government's idiotic plan is to sell monopolies to companies on a per route basis? If a hypothetical Onnitrain gets the exclusive rights to serve let's say the Helsinki-Turku rail, why wouldn't they fleece the customers for as much as they can get away with? Unlike on the roads, there's not enough room on the rails for five different companies to serve the same route, so there won't be any serious competition.
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Aug 28, 2017 08:04
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ALLAN LASSUS posted:Please elaborate on what is the exact mechanism that will lower ticket prices, when the government's idiotic plan is to sell monopolies to companies on a per route basis? If a hypothetical Onnitrain gets the exclusive rights to serve let's say the Helsinki-Turku rail, why wouldn't they fleece the customers for as much as they can get away with? Unlike on the roads, there's not enough room on the rails for five different companies to serve the same route, so there won't be any serious competition. Five different companies can easily serve the same route with a little help from the invisible hand of the free market.
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Aug 28, 2017 09:10
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Privatizing VR is small potatoes frankly, we need to think big. How about privatizing verotus?
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Aug 28, 2017 09:28
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throw to first drat IT posted:Privatizing VR is small potatoes frankly, we need to think big. How about privatizing verotus? All the tax revenue is already going to private corporations and the amount of taxes to be paid is controlled by owners of private corporations. The business of actually collecting it provides no quarter for profit so it must remain a public endeavour.
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Aug 28, 2017 09:38
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Rexroom posted:It's not as clear-cut as you put it. While the amount of passengers has increased and tickets have cheapened in Sweden, passengers are not happy about late trains and the confusing plethora of ticket sale websites of different companies. If your train even works in the first place. But hey, cheap tickets. I mean you can look at different measures and find all sorts of problems in the system there but the ultimate test of whether consumers like it is whether they use it or whether they alternatives. The same goes with Ryanair and air travel, Onnibus and buses and so on. ALLAN LASSUS posted:Please elaborate on what is the exact mechanism that will lower ticket prices, when the government's idiotic plan is to sell monopolies to companies on a per route basis? If a hypothetical Onnitrain gets the exclusive rights to serve let's say the Helsinki-Turku rail, why wouldn't they fleece the customers for as much as they can get away with? Unlike on the roads, there's not enough room on the rails for five different companies to serve the same route, so there won't be any serious competition. Oh gee, great point, no one has thought of that before. You stumped everyone with that great point. If you'd bothered to even do the tiniest bit of Googling or thinking, or even just staying up to date with the news in Finland, you'd have seen that the competition aspect happens in the bidding process, not in the operating process. Potential mechanisms for getting a better overall return: 1) Bidding for routes with fixed ticket prices (profits returned to consumers through the price of the franchise) 2) Bidding for routes, including ticket prices as a factor in the bid 3) Bidding for routes, including unprofitable routes (cross-subsidizing) That being said, Onnitrain's ticket prices will also naturally be driven down by Onnibus and Onniplane.
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Aug 28, 2017 09:41
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I mean you can look at different measures and find all sorts of problems in the system there but the ultimate test of whether consumers like it is whether they use it or whether they alternatives. You mean the alternatives that physically don't and/or can't exist? Sure yes why not.
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Aug 28, 2017 09:47
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I mean you can look at different measures and find all sorts of problems in the system there but the ultimate test of whether consumers like it is whether they use it or whether they alternatives. The same goes with Ryanair and air travel, Onnibus and buses and so on. LMAO people don't use the poorest shittiest option because they "like it", it's because they don't have money for a better option or there is NOT an another option. You're once again confusing how real people work with bizarre economic models.
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Aug 28, 2017 11:07
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Aug 28, 2017 13:23
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DarkCrawler posted:LMAO people don't use the poorest shittiest option because they "like it", it's because they don't have money for a better option or there is NOT an another option. You're once again confusing how real people work with bizarre economic models. Ok, so then the government should privatize and allow the private sector to provide the poorest shittiest option instead of assuming that people will prefer paying more for "high quality" train transport. That's just the logical conclusion to your argument there, of course in reality you're out of touch again living in some sort of fantasy world where people are so poor that they're forced to take the cheapest option, even though one of the examples I gave was Ryanair, i.e. something people use for holidays abroad or business trips. Even in rail travel it seems very DarkCrawlerish to argue that the reason train passenger travel has doubled since privatization in Sweden (compared to +35% in Finland for the same period) is because Swedes are poor and couldn't afford anything else beforehand.
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Aug 28, 2017 13:58
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Jerry Cotton posted:All the tax revenue is already going to private corporations and the amount of taxes to be paid is controlled by owners of private corporations. The business of actually collecting it provides no quarter for profit so it must remain a public endeavour. Feudalism is the ultimate social order according to Kepu.
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Aug 28, 2017 14:10
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Nenonen posted:Feudalism is the ultimate social order according to Kepu. True; as anyone who has set foot in the countryside in the past 100 years well knows, Kepu is all about feuds.
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Aug 28, 2017 14:11
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Speaking of Kepu:quote:Vuonna 2016 suomalaisten miesten keski-ikä oli 41,1 ja naisten 43,8 vuotta, mutta demarien jäsenet ovat keskimäärin 20 vuotta tätä vanhempia. 
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Aug 28, 2017 14:24
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HUMAN FISH posted:Speaking of Kepu: Younger than I thought
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Aug 28, 2017 14:25
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Muistakaahan katsoa The Donaldin ja Salen pressitilaisuus klo 23.20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABBRpdLsrNE
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Aug 28, 2017 18:16
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Zat posted:Muistakaahan katsoa The Donaldin ja Salen pressitilaisuus klo 23.20 I'm gonna guess ol' trump is going to rant and rave how finland has such good relations with russian and the USA should follow our lead in that, because he is Putin's bitch/in so much debt to russian mobsters, the press will grill trump about loving up preparing for the hurricane and botching the aftermath, and basically Sale will just stand there like a statue and no one will ask him about anything or talk to him in any capacity.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:40
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Gortarius posted:I'm gonna guess ol' trump is going to rant and rave how finland has such good relations with russian and the USA should follow our lead in that, because he is Putin's bitch/in so much debt to russian mobsters, the press will grill trump about loving up preparing for the hurricane and botching the aftermath, and basically Sale will just stand there like a statue and no one will ask him about anything or talk to him in any capacity. I'm somewhat sad that this is probably the optimistic scenario.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:56
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Gortarius posted:I'm gonna guess ol' trump is going to rant and rave how finland has such good relations with russian and the USA should follow our lead in that, because he is Putin's bitch/in so much debt to russian mobsters, the press will grill trump about loving up preparing for the hurricane and botching the aftermath, and basically Sale will just stand there like a statue and no one will ask him about anything or talk to him in any capacity. I'm sure the talks between a long winded lawyer and ADHD used car salesman went smoothly.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:58
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"Finland would never sign NAFTA" Trump clearly wants us to leave the eu, we should do it and maybe we'll get a discount on the F-35
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Aug 28, 2017 22:01
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What's it like to be Finnish?
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Aug 28, 2017 22:06
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Lightning Lord posted:What's it like to be Finnish? 
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Aug 28, 2017 22:07
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I was kinda hoping Sale would have done a coup and saved the world. Also he looked like he certainly did NOT want to be there.
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Aug 28, 2017 22:07
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Lightning Lord posted:What's it like to be Finnish? it's like an eldritch nightmare but instead of waking up you get drunk to make it stop
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Aug 28, 2017 22:08
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Kehveli posted:it's like an eldritch nightmare but instead of waking up you get drunk to make it stop My limited experience drinking with Finns while part of UNPREDEP VIII (?) supports this.    Beer drinking - Finns won this round Macedonian wine drinking - Everyone vomiting for a week, inconclusive Jack Daniels summer volleyball funtime rematch - 
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Aug 28, 2017 22:24
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https://twitter.com/niinisto/status/902282121888251905 lmbo
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Aug 28, 2017 22:58
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BUT WHAT IS HE REALLY HIDING
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Aug 28, 2017 23:03
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Ok, so then the government should privatize and allow the private sector to provide the poorest shittiest option instead of assuming that people will prefer paying more for "high quality" train transport. So the revenue will go to some CEO's tax account on Panama? Nah, if there is to be a lovely option at least, I'd like to see the revenue ending up in the government dole. Also you do know how train tracks work, right? They are more or less at the capacity they can run at. The private sector won't increase the number of options, there will still be one, instead now the money will go to less people which I know gets your dick really hard - but normal people don't consider that a better outcome. https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_rataverkko quote:Rataverkko on vieläkin vähäisen liikenteen takia pääasiassa yksiraiteista, tärkeimpinä poikkeuksina pääkaupunkiseudun lähiliikenteen radat, pääradan osuus Helsinki–Riihimäki–Tampere, Riihimäki–Kouvola–Luumäki ja Lahden oikorata. What, the new private company will magically make the trains run faster and cheaper? Who are these magical drivers that can manifest track space out of nowhere? Am I going to get a train to Helsinki from Tikkurila every 1 minute instead of the 2-5 minutes it is now at rush hour? You see 1990 to 2017 and seem to think it's because of privatization, as if nothing else happened in near three loving decades. Do you not think the government built anything in that space? Do you believe that they made no infrastructure investments required for these companies to be able to increase the number of trains that are physically able to occupy the tracks? Geriatric Pirate posted:That's just the logical conclusion to your argument there, of course in reality you're out of touch again living in some sort of fantasy world where people are so poor that they're forced to take the cheapest option, even though one of the examples I gave was Ryanair, i.e. something people use for holidays abroad or business trips. Even in rail travel it seems very DarkCrawlerish to argue that the reason train passenger travel has doubled since privatization in Sweden (compared to +35% in Finland for the same period) is because Swedes are poor and couldn't afford anything else beforehand. The reason train passenger travel has doubled since 1990 is A) population growth, especially in metropolitan regions B) public transport is used more by the new, less wealthy generation C) and by immigrants. It's not because the privatization has made trains so lovely to travel in, and any positives gained are offset by the negatives. But hey, let's ask the Swedes! You know we don't actually have to rely on what you or me think they think: quote:Asiakkaiden mielestä yksityistäminen on epäonnistunut. Ruotsalaisten mielestä junat kulkevat myöhässä, lippujärjestelmä on hankala, hinnat liian kalliita ja ratojen kunnossapito huonoa. drat it's not looking very good when we have to deal with the real world instead of economic hypotheticals, huh. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 08:46
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Maybe a private train company would let conductors sell tickets on the train?
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Aug 29, 2017 09:18
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DarkCrawler posted:So the revenue will go to some CEO's tax account on Panama? Nah, if there is to be a lovely option at least, I'd like to see the revenue ending up in the government dole. quote:You see 1990 to 2017 and seem to think it's because of privatization, as if nothing else happened in near three loving decades. Do you not think the government built anything in that space? Do you believe that they made no infrastructure investments required for these companies to be able to increase the number of trains that are physically able to occupy the tracks?  " which suggest you still don't understand what level the competition is coming from don't really make a strong case. Your premise about trains being used by the less wealthy is incorrect, because buses are the cheapest option anyway. Yet even as a proportion of total journeys, train travel has increased in popularity in other countries but not in Finland. http://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/e...vastaan-6671624 quote:But hey, let's ask the Swedes! You know we don't actually have to rely on what you or me think they think:
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Aug 29, 2017 12:56
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