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yeah that one. Though I don't course correct while writing, that's for editing.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:03
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HIJK posted:yeah that one. Though I don't course correct while writing, that's for editing. Course correct is probably the wrong way of putting it. I more mean I like that diagram a reminder that nudges you more towards a structure that will take you somewhere useful. I've been adamantly refusing to actually go back and change anything until I'm done with the draft and I think I'll continue to do so. I have a whole lot of notebook pages filled with notes of how I might do things differently, but I haven't actually applied them. I think I'd run in circles if I did.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:08
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I like Dan Harmon's story wheel, but I've struggled with how to apply it for determining pacing. I know he says the pieces aren't all equal eighths, but it seems like the middle/bottom portions take up a much bigger chunk of the story than the wheel would suggest.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:31
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MockingQuantum posted:Course correct is probably the wrong way of putting it. I more mean I like that diagram a reminder that nudges you more towards a structure that will take you somewhere useful. I've been adamantly refusing to actually go back and change anything until I'm done with the draft and I think I'll continue to do so. I have a whole lot of notebook pages filled with notes of how I might do things differently, but I haven't actually applied them. I think I'd run in circles if I did. Sorta yes, sorta no. I've tried doing the "okay time to insert this story element here" thing before and it paralyzes me for some reason, I can't figure out why. The story circle works because it is tenuous, like you said, and that's much less pressure. But the way I write things is a lot more uh, instinctual. You're not wrong per se but if I think about it in too structured a way then I can't get anywhere. The relationship between me and the wheel is super super vague. I trust myself enough to get the bare points of the story down without thinking too hard about it. I do have occasions where I remove massive sections of writing because it doesn't serve the story but that doesn't bother me because fitting what I've got into a structure afterwards takes so much pressure off instead of worrying about it in the moment.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:34
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HIJK posted:Sorta yes, sorta no. I've tried doing the "okay time to insert this story element here" thing before and it paralyzes me for some reason, I can't figure out why. The story circle works because it is tenuous, like you said, and that's much less pressure. But the way I write things is a lot more uh, instinctual. Honestly I'm drifting in that direction. It's hard to say given this is my first really dedicated attempt at a novel, but I'm finding I can't structure things out all that well ahead of time. I do find moments or scenes or plot points that I know will fit in there somewhere, but it's a bit like seeing a distant landmark on the other side of a dense wood. I know where I'm going, but who the hell knows how long it'll take me to navigate the forest or what'll be in there. Stuff like the story circle or Dan Wells' 7 Point Story Structure work with my brain because more often than not I'll get to whatever landmark scene or moment I pointed myself at and kinda get a little lost on where to head next, and they're vague enough that I will just look at them and go "oh hey I haven't really hit this idea at all yet, things are going well for this character, time to gently caress poo poo up" or whatever.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:38
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MockingQuantum posted:Honestly I'm drifting in that direction. It's hard to say given this is my first really dedicated attempt at a novel, but I'm finding I can't structure things out all that well ahead of time. I do find moments or scenes or plot points that I know will fit in there somewhere, but it's a bit like seeing a distant landmark on the other side of a dense wood. I know where I'm going, but who the hell knows how long it'll take me to navigate the forest or what'll be in there. Stuff like the story circle or Dan Wells' 7 Point Story Structure work with my brain because more often than not I'll get to whatever landmark scene or moment I pointed myself at and kinda get a little lost on where to head next, and they're vague enough that I will just look at them and go "oh hey I haven't really hit this idea at all yet, things are going well for this character, time to gently caress poo poo up" or whatever.  I do this all the time. What I've found useful is writing out specific scene ideas on notecards or post its and then consulting them at specific times when I'm stuck or need something to happen or need inspiration for a specific kind of scene. Otherwise you just have to....go and hope your brain doesn't poo poo out on you.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:52
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HIJK posted:
I am kind of amazed how much writing is just gut-checking for me. I tend to be a hyper-ordered person in other areas, and when I've tried to outline short stories or the like, it usually ends up that there's some logical part of my brain that'll start going "you need to move to this plot point soon! This is where it needs to happen!" But if I just relax and write, I'll get strong intuitive feelings about the structure. Like, I know scene B needs to happen before too long, but it's just not the right time yet, so what needs to happen instead? Where is the character in their arc? What makes sense on a gut level? So most of my learning has been figuring out how to listen to those gut feelings and work with them. Not to say that it'll actually work out in the long run, but hey, I'm having fun for the time being so who cares.
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Aug 25, 2017 19:59
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So long as it gets word down on paper, it works!
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Aug 25, 2017 20:56
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And I am done with my first ever novel. First draft is done at 88,324 words in 4 weeks. Now to take a step back and see how poo poo it is. Wee
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Aug 26, 2017 00:19
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MockingQuantum posted:Pardon the double post, all. Ok, but what if your story ends up more like this? 1. A character is in a zone of comfort, 2. But they want something. 3. They enter an unfamiliar situation, 4. Adapt to it, 5. Get what they wanted, 6. Pay a heavy price for it, 7. Enter a totally loving freaky situation. Oh gently caress, what's going on? 8. Fuuuuuuuuuck! (character ends up changed into something they don't want to be)
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Aug 26, 2017 01:47
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Stuporstar posted:Ok, but what if your story ends up more like this? If there's nothing to hint at 7 and 8 earlier on in the story, then it's likely to be a pretty unsatisfying ending. A lot can work if you set it up right, though.
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Aug 26, 2017 02:40
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Naerasa posted:If there's nothing to hint at 7 and 8 earlier on in the story, then it's likely to be a pretty unsatisfying ending. A lot can work if you set it up right, though. This is why I've had so much trouble with the beginning, having completely rewritten it from scratch several times over, every time starting with a different scene to try to set the right tone. I want to set up the right reader expectations from the start, because if I set the wrong ones, it's gonna piss people off. Especially since there's a strong romance arc, and there's sure as hell not gonna be a happily ever after. I finally said gently caress it and just started the story with an epistolary aside saying, "By the way, I'm not dead. Something much worse happened..." and going from there. I really hope my beginning doesn't suck this time around. I'm getting sick of ripping it up and starting over.
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Aug 26, 2017 03:24
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Going all the way back to --MockingQuantum posted:On another note, for you more discovery-writing types, how do you approach structuring a book? Do you even bother thinking about pacing and tension and hitting specific structure beats until you're done with your first draft? -- for a second: I don't structure books ahead of time in any formal way. Mostly I just chew on an idea for a while, write other things while letting it develop in my head, and then start on that story when it's about ready to be written. I will have beats, or sometimes just scenes, in mind before I start. I don't write them down, however, because then I'd feel bound to follow them. Sorry, I know that's an unsatisfying answer. It's very exhilarating when you're doing it, though. Inevitably, even though I may hit all the beats and written all the scenes, when I finish there'll be half a dozen new scenes or beats that I like way better than anything I could have thought of before I began.
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Aug 26, 2017 05:34
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I just write scenes in whatever order they come to me, even if they're for a different novel entirely. I have the basic outlines done for six of them, and totally lovely rough drafts for four and a half. If something's hot and ready to be written, I don't dare say no. If it's a choice between words on the page or stalling because you feel bound to linearity, words on the page is the way to go. Of course this is why I have half a novel done (the lovely draft doesn't count) and yet I'm repeatedly trying to figure out where the beginning is. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Aug 26, 2017 |
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Aug 26, 2017 06:43
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Burkion posted:And I am done with my first ever novel. First draft is done at 88,324 words in 4 weeks. Congratulations! That's some serious churning. Now put it away and do something else for a week or three before coming back to it.
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Aug 26, 2017 18:09
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Congratulations! That's some serious churning. That was my plan, yeah. Jesus I just want to jump back on it, or move on immediately to the sequel. I had briefly considered combining books 1 and 2 together, because they follow one another on a lot of levels, but the combined page lengths would be well north of 600 and I don't think anyone is going to want to look at that even if it wasn't poo poo. I just have this overwhelming urge to write more that I have to temper now because I REALLY need that space to contextualize what I already have to properly edit it
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Aug 26, 2017 18:16
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Burkion posted:That was my plan, yeah. Jump onto the sequel then, and once you have a first draft of that, go back and edit the first. That way you get the right amount of distance and maybe even some more idea about what to edit to make the first book match up better with later developments.
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Aug 26, 2017 20:27
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Yeah I'm just going to have to do that. My ADHD is making me want to pick at what I already have or move on so I'm just going to move on. I want to make this into a full fledged series. Something like 10 or so books, with potential side stories and a limited Prequel series and a shorter sequel series. I don't know if I'll have an audience for it, but that's my plan. So, you know, might as well get as much done as I can. I have it all basically planned out as much as it needs to be. Part of that is because I've been working on this project since 2004. Up until recently, I never felt confident in myself as a writer to attempt to make it a novel, and was instead trying toget it turned into a comic series. But the actual comic series I'm working on is stalled for a little while, so I decided to start working on this instead and decided to try and turn it into a novel. This is actually the longest piece of prose I've ever written, so I'm super excited that I got it done and it came out so smoothly. I have something like 36 named characters with major to minor roles in this first book and it's just a lot of goddamn fun to jump around the narrative and build stuff up in this universe that I've ingrained in my head all these years. Any time I need to advance the story I just jump to another group of characters that would be more aligned with progress and gently caress around from their perspective as things unfold.
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Aug 26, 2017 21:31
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Definitely don't skip out on time writing when you are so excited about it. KEEP GOING. (ALWAYS KEEP GOING)
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Aug 26, 2017 21:35
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Naerasa posted:After going through the query process with four manuscripts and not getting much interest, I'm wondering how I can approach this from a different angle. For this most recent manuscript, I had a couple of agents go over both my query letter and my first ten pages. I got feedback saying the pages were strong, and both the query and the premise were solid, but I've gotten nothing but rejections since then. Most were forms, but one did write me back to say this: "You write well, and this is such a great idea, so I am absolutely mystified as to why I am not getting that (somewhat magical, always unpredictable) "Yes! This is for me!" feeling. I'm sorry to report that I haven't quite figured that out yet--but if I do think of anything, I'll certainly let you know." Maybe your writing, on a sentence-by-sentence level, just doesn't stand out enough? Sounds a bit like your problem is that there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's nothing too special about it either. Networking isn't ultimately going to sell your book, you know?
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Aug 28, 2017 14:39
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Safety Biscuits posted:Maybe your writing, on a sentence-by-sentence level, just doesn't stand out enough? Sounds a bit like your problem is that there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's nothing too special about it either. Networking isn't ultimately going to sell your book, you know? Yeah, I know what you're saying, and it's honestly my biggest worry. I think I know how to write something that's technically good, but 'technically good' is something you can figure out with rules and guidance. Making something good stand out as special is a lot harder and there aren't any magic tricks on how to do it. As for the networking part, I hate it and I don't want to do it either, but all the advice in my life is coming from boomers who are probably mad they can't tell me to go knock on the doors of publishing houses with a printed copy of my manuscript. I basically can't have a conversation about anything remotely related to any kind of career without it devolving into 'well have you leaned on your network????' Yeah, I have leaned on my network, but my network is full of thirty-somethings like me who have even fewer connections than I do. Jesus, my network is made of people who are stoked when they can make the rent.
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Aug 28, 2017 16:46
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It may also be that the moment hasn't arrived for your book or something. Keep sending it to agents, the market is always changing.
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Aug 28, 2017 16:54
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That is also true and why I'm not giving up. Maybe one of these days I'll even up my odds and write one of those strong women protags agents all seem to want, but for the moment I'll keep pushing my book with dudes.
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Aug 28, 2017 17:15
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Naerasa posted:That is also true and why I'm not giving up. Maybe one of these days I'll even up my odds and write one of those strong women protags agents all seem to want, but for the moment I'll keep pushing my book with dudes. just do a find/replace instant gender swap.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:19
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sebmojo posted:just do a find/replace instant gender swap. That is gonna make things real complicated in a story about a character coming to terms with being a gay man.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:35
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Do it anyway, now it's postmodern
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Aug 28, 2017 19:39
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Naerasa posted:That is gonna make things real complicated in a story about a character coming to terms with being a gay "ladies whip your dick out" 
crabrock fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 19:39
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Here's some venting: Coming up with titles is haaaaard. Is it even possible to come up with a fantasy title that doesn't sound cliche as hell.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:44
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Okua posted:Here's some venting: Coming up with titles is haaaaard. Stupid Newbie's Big Spooky Fantasy Story There, now you owe me 10% royalties of every book you sell.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:45
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I just gave up and went with melodrama. The Lightning Brigade Book 1- A Bitter Yesterday. The Lightning Brigade Book 2- The Truth We Seek The Lightning Brigade Book 3- The Devil You Know The Lightning Brigade Book 4- The Bridges We Burn It's going to all pay off when I finally get to the last book, A Better Tomorrow Gonna rock that heroic blood shed reference so hard.
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Aug 28, 2017 19:49
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here are some fantasy titles i came up with for you: SWORD TROMBONE SEASONAL VESTIBULE THE OWNER OF A VARIABLE AMOUNT OF THINGS THE REVERSE ECLIPSE GONE BONES LAFFY TAFFY GOBLIN SLAYER VALEDICTORIAN KNIGHT WIRELESS TREBUCHET THE JOY OF IMPROPER FOOD SANITATION A LIFE DEFINED BY BUBBLES HUGE JACKMAN THE GREENTHUMB WIZARD'S GROWING DIARY WHET HOT AURTHURIAN SUMMER EQUESTRIAN FINESSE UNITED STEAKS PIG WHIP THE PERILS OF THE FACE HUNT THE STORM THAT WAS CANCELED
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Aug 28, 2017 19:53
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changng my username to SWORD TROMBONE
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Aug 28, 2017 20:11
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Okua posted:Here's some venting: Coming up with titles is haaaaard. Avoid X of X titles for a start. Every hack writer trying to capture the same feel as Game of Thrones have beaten that poo poo into paste.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:11
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crabrock posted:here are some fantasy titles i came up with for you: gently caress I really wanna read WIRELESS TREBUCHET and UNITED STEAKS
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Aug 28, 2017 20:42
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Stuporstar posted:Avoid X of X titles for a start. Every hack writer trying to capture the same feel as Game of Thrones have beaten that poo poo into paste. Nah, the people chasing Eddings readers beat it into paste; the people following Jordan beat it the paste into dust, and the Martin followers are beating it to atoms and quarks. (And X of Y where Y stays the same for at least a few books was an established formula even earlier. Shanarra/Gor/Dray Prescot)
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Aug 28, 2017 20:44
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Some cliche words to avoid: Destiny Sword(s) Winter (actually any season, but ESPECIALLY that one) Stages of sunrise/sunset (Dawn, Dusk, Gloaming, etc.) [King/Queen/Prince/etc.] of X Tides Witch Knight Dragon(s) Slayer X of the Dead Mist Wind Edit: I hereby claim "THE OWNER OF A VARIABLE AMOUNT OF THINGS" and "THE STORM THAT WAS CANCELED" and you can't have them. Mirage fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 20:48
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Mirage posted:Some cliche words to avoid: Hey gently caress you, I'm the one with Lightning, I will take that Storm Was Cancelled and you can't stop me
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Aug 28, 2017 20:52
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Stuporstar posted:Avoid X of X titles for a start. Every hack writer trying to capture the same feel as Game of Thrones have beaten that poo poo into paste. Seriously, check all this poo poo out: Name of the Wind House of the Scorpion Sword of Destiny Six of Crows Wheel of Time Lord of the Rings Tale of Two Cities Count of Monte Cristo Stranger of a Stanger Land Edit: 30 minutes later remembered my working title right now is Amulet of Air 
Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 20:58
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I always come up with godawful titles for everything I write because I need to call it something during long one-person conversations with myself about what I want the book to be. I've never come up with a good title, even for anything I've actually finished. I think there's an art to it that I just don't have. Though one title I like, because it's at once vaguely clever and kind of cheesy while still being accurate and fitting for the book (which would seem to be an appropriate combination for a horror novel).
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Aug 28, 2017 21:02
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protagonist name and the x of (the) y
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Aug 28, 2017 21:16
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