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Strategic Tea posted:The power magically disappears when the natural order is asserted. I'd also like to emphasise that it's basic premise is New Age as gently caress. Pagan gods usurped by an Abrahamic pretender.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:29
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Harrow posted:I enjoyed The Magicians for the trashy pulp it is, but I would never categorize it as "well-written," especially not next to something like Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell or Dune. In fact, I'd say it belongs in the "fun fantasy trash" category much more. There's some prose in there that is very nice. It is definitely a notch above R.A. Salvatore and Kevin J. Anderson. It does deep PoV without crossing the line too far into navel gazing. I think a big part of what makes fantasy good escapism is a solid deep PoV, which few authors can pull off. Modern fantasy books are rarely in anything but 3rd person limited or first person because deep PoV is very native to those forms. I guess I should clarify for those who aren't English majors--Deep PoV means that you experience the character's physical sensations, emotions, and thoughts in a visceral way. You never head-hop into another character during that scene. You don't break into narrative tangents. You minimize the use of filter words. The goal is autonoesis, or autonoetic consciousness, which is "the human ability to mentally place ourselves in the past, in the future, or in counterfactual situations, and to thus be able to examine our own thoughts." This is the state of consciousness or the experience you sometimes have when very engaged in a read that you stop seeing words and are experiencing something akin to a guided lucid dream. Fantasy is the genre seeks to create a sense of wonder in the reader, and my definition of trash is anything called Fantasy that doesn't. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 20:33
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Hunky, achingly sexy pagan gods 
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Aug 28, 2017 20:34
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BananaNutkins posted:There's some prose in there that is very nice. It is definitely a notch above R.A. Salvatore and Kevin J. Anderson. It does deep PoV without crossing the line too far into navel gazing. Yeah, that's fair. None of the prose really stuck out to me all that much, but you're right that there's more to being well-written than just the prose. I also appreciate it for having a near-total lack of traditionally "likable" characters while simultaneously having characters I still wanted to read more about. I'm extremely picky about prose in anything I read, so I bounce off the overwhelming majority of SF/F really quickly. That I stayed with The Magicians for a whole trilogy must mean something about its writing worked for me. BananaNutkins posted:Fantasy is the genre seeks to create a sense of wonder in the reader, and my definition of trash is anything called Fantasy that doesn't. Should I assume you're using two definitions of "trash" in the list of fantasy trash? I sort of assumed, but just to clarify that you're not holding out some list of awesome fantasy books I don't know about that make Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell look like trash.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:42
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Harrow posted:Yeah, that's fair. None of the prose really stuck out to me all that much, but you're right that there's more to being well-written than just the prose. I also appreciate it for having a near-total lack of traditionally "likable" characters while simultaneously having characters I still wanted to read more about. That's just self-denigration. I'm a fantasy writer. I love fantasy so much that I have an honest to god master's degree in it. And this is something awful. Maybe I should de-snark the list if we're having an actual discussion now.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:49
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BananaNutkins posted:That's just self-denigration. I'm a fantasy writer, and this is something awful. Maybe I should de-snark the list if we're having an actual discussion now. Nah, I was just being too literal for SA. Actually I could probably use a similar list for SF since I'm reading (and writing) more of that than fantasy these days, but I should probably go check the SF/F thread for that. Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Aug 28, 2017 |
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Aug 28, 2017 20:50
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BananaNutkins posted:State of the Genre Address 2017, updated Aug 28, 2017 You can't say that you think Dune Messiah is some how the only other Dune book worth reading when you say God Emperor of Dune is trash. Dune is a weird series especially since Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert have taken a steaming dump all over the legacy of the series ever since the mid 2000s with their endless sequels, prequels, side stores, etc. The original is wordy and obtuse, hard to get in to and way more complex then you'd expect from 1970s science fiction especially given there is no backstory or context to many of the things brought up in the book, like the Suk doctors, mentats, great houses, etc. its all something you have to just accept and figure out from the context. Dune Messiah is like a short story that grew too large and that Frank Herbert knew what he wanted to start with in Children of Dune but was told he needed more Paul Atredies action to keep people happy. God Emperor is closer the original Dune with its complete insanity and confusion but you really get the picture of a weird and hosed up new empire dynamic and how Leto is thinking and struggling against everything he is. Heretic and Chapterhouse are just bizarre given what preceded them but they really seem like something Frank Herbert was still passionate about so you kind of feel his love for the series while reading and occasionally going "Jesus, what the gently caress is wrong with you Frank" and enjoying some of the better written parts. Everything post Frank Herbert is steaming garbage not even worth it if you just want to read lovely fanfiction about your favorite characters. The whole hype train back in 2004ish was that Brian Herbert claimed he found extensive notes left from his father about where the OG Dune series was going to end and when books 7/8 came out and shortly after people started realizing that Brian was full of poo poo and he eventually admitted the "notes" were far less extensive then he tried to portray and the entire KJA/BH Dune canon was probably based on 1 page of scrawled notes and random possible ideas. Frank Herbert had some strange ideas about matriarchal run societies but I don't believe for a second he'd ever write a cabal of kinda-witches who are trained to use their powers as psychic-EMP suicide bombers. Here's one of my favorite Dune factoids quote:In 1984, Herbert's publisher Putnam released The Dune Encyclopedia under its Berkley Books imprint.[43][44] Approved by Herbert but not written by him, this collection of essays by 43 contributors describes in invented detail many aspects of the Dune universe not found in the novels themselves.[45] Herbert's estate later confirmed its non-canon status after Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson had begun publishing prequel novels that directly contradict The Dune Encyclopedia. The Dune Enncyclopedia is amazing because its the precursor to things like fan wikias and tv tropes where people list every detail about a franchise and either make up or speculate with authority. That KJA/BH 'declared' it as non-canon came as a result of them making up their own ideas of what all the minor references in Dune were and running it into the ground.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:57
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Harrow posted:I mean, later in the book she and the gay guy she's forced to mate with end up having lots of good sex with someone they find very attractive, so I don't think this is necessarily the point Jemisin was trying to get across. That part doesn't jive with the critique so it can be safely discarded.
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Aug 28, 2017 21:08
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BananaNutkins posted:Sorry, they suck now. Go read them again. I screwed up and should have put them in the influential category. You also think Joe Abercrombie is better than Hobbs. First Law wasn't as bad as Kingkiller but it was painfully stupid and had the subtlety of a neon sign. The only thing from any of Hobbs' Farseer-related books that were more painful to read than First Law was the beginning of the Liveship trilogy, where everyone is competing for the title of Biggest And Most Insufferable rear end in a top hat In the Story. Sure, Kyle wins that contest and it's not even close, but I'd take any other writing from that world's setting over First Law. Even the "I want to be done writing" feeling that the Fitz and the Fool books had was better than the dumb overarching story of First Law and bad guy "reveal" that was even more obvious than the rear end in a top hat guy becoming king. First Law's ending for its main characters couldn't have been more obvious early on if they were posted on neon billboards. ZombieLenin posted:What is wrong with you, Goon Sir! This is the most incorrect statement about a book series I have ever read. You are challenging my honor as a reader of only non-trash fantasy literature. He's right about that D&D-campaign-turned-novel. Malazan is a goddamn mess.
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Aug 28, 2017 23:16
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Evil Fluffy posted:He's right about that D&D-campaign-turned-novel. Malazan is a goddamn mess. 20 trilogies/duologies worth of characters squeezed into a 10-book series.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:01
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Evil Fluffy posted:The only thing from any of Hobbs' Farseer-related books that were more painful to read than First Law was the beginning of the Liveship trilogy, where everyone is competing for the title of Biggest And Most Insufferable rear end in a top hat In the Story.  I think you mean the entirety of The Rain Wild Chronicles.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:47
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ulmont posted:
I'd forgotten that the Rain Wild books had definitely-not-another-Kyle, so yes. which is a shame because the Vestrit son had potential as a character given all the poo poo that happens to him.
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Aug 29, 2017 02:35
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Hey, I said the First Law was entertaining trash. Abercrombie learns as he writes, and from Best Served Cold onward, I really think he's a top notch pulp fantasy writer. This is very different than being a "literary" fantasy writer. Abercrombie is very likely the top dog as far as the quality and output graph goes in pulp fantasy.
MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Aug 29, 2017 |
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Aug 29, 2017 02:46
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Aren't they making a First Law tv show or something? How the hell is Glokta going to be conveyed in that?
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Aug 29, 2017 02:51
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BananaNutkins posted:State of the Genre Address 2017, updated Aug 28, 2017 You are between 27-32 years old.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:07
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Benson Cunningham posted:You are between 27-32 years old. Pretty close. 34.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:15
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Solice Kirsk posted:Aren't they making a First Law tv show or something? How the hell is Glokta going to be conveyed in that? Hopefully they get the kid from Breaking Bad, let him drool and mumble, and just subtitle everything he says.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:16
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BananaNutkins posted:Pretty close. 34. Hmm, you tricked me with your T.S.White placement. And not even a mention of Jack Vance or Peter Beagle
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Aug 29, 2017 03:59
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Benson Cunningham posted:Hmm, you tricked me with your T.S.White placement. And not even a mention of Jack Vance or Peter Beagle Hey, it was off the top of my head. I went back and added a few more. I need to figure out what I think about China Mieville...
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Aug 29, 2017 04:04
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BananaNutkins posted:Hey, it was off the top of my head. I went back and added a few more. I need to figure out what I think about China Mieville... I am very curious what you think of Mieville. I never got into his Bas-Lag books but I loved The City & the City and had fun with Kraken. The Scar seems to be the consensus for best Bas-Lag book so maybe I'll give it another shot.
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Aug 29, 2017 05:22
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Harrow posted:I am very curious what you think of Mieville. I never got into his Bas-Lag books but I loved The City & the City and had fun with Kraken. The questionable thing with Mieville for me is the sheer volume of words he uses to describe things of questionable importance. I really enjoyed Perdido Street Station and the Scar. I thought the Scar's primary PoV was boring, but it didn't matter so much because of the insanely imaginative setting, creatures, and world-building. Then again, the plot is very basic, and I didn't feel a huge amount of payoff at the end. Mieville does write fairly deep Pov, but on the other hand, his cast is often off-putting and unlikeable, selected BECAUSE they are counter-trend, and sometimes that hurts my enjoyment. Kraken was a budget version of Gaiman's Neverwhere with less likable characters.
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Aug 29, 2017 07:39
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Evil Fluffy posted:You also think Joe Abercrombie is better than Hobbs. Adverb maven Robin Hobb. Her prose is a nightmare.
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Aug 29, 2017 07:41
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BananaNutkins posted:The questionable thing with Mieville for me is the sheer volume of words he uses to describe things of questionable importance. I really enjoyed Perdido Street Station and the Scar. I thought the Scar's primary PoV was boring, but it didn't matter so much because of the insanely imaginative setting, creatures, and world-building. Then again, the plot is very basic, and I didn't feel a huge amount of payoff at the end. Mieville does write fairly deep Pov, but on the other hand, his cast is often off-putting and unlikeable, selected BECAUSE they are counter-trend, and sometimes that hurts my enjoyment. Kraken was a budget version of Gaiman's Neverwhere with less likable characters. I think that might be why I didn't take to the Bas-Lag books as much as The City & the City or Kraken (which I agree is sort of like "what if Neil Gaiman, but communism?"): both of those are significantly less overblown in language. Kraken does slip into classic Mieville verbosity, but I think the first-person perspective in The City & the City keeps the language more natural and immersive. Really, if off-putting casts were a huge deal for me, though, I never would've gotten through the first book of The Magicians.
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Aug 29, 2017 14:07
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Solice Kirsk posted:Aren't they making a First Law tv show or something? How the hell is Glokta going to be conveyed in that? Can't find any info on it. They tried making a comic series and it got canceled after 4 issues so I doubt they'd think the series has legs enough for a TV show.
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Aug 30, 2017 22:39
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Ccs posted:Can't find any info on it. They tried making a comic series and it got canceled after 4 issues so I doubt they'd think the series has legs enough for a TV show. https://www.joeabercrombie.com/2008/03/11/the-blade-itself-to-be-filmed/ All I found was this funny blog entry about Ben Affleck directing a movie called The Blade Itself that isn't Abercrombie's book.
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Aug 31, 2017 01:02
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I've enjoyed it so far. I'm keenly interested in where Bast comes in.
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Aug 31, 2017 15:23
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Ccs posted:Can't find any info on it. They tried making a comic series and it got canceled after 4 issues so I doubt they'd think the series has legs enough for a TV show. As much as I love Joe Abercrombie, I'm not sure First Law works as a TV show. There are so many opportunities for a TV producer to ruin what Joe Abercrombie intentionally does to the genre in those novels.
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Aug 31, 2017 16:48
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Kommando posted:I've enjoyed it so far. I'm keenly interested in where Bast comes in. Wherever bad characters come from.
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Aug 31, 2017 16:57
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Kommando posted:I've enjoyed it so far. I'm keenly interested in where Bast comes in. Spoiler: He doesn't. Unless you count the canon short story by Mary Robinette Kowal where he goes deep and comes in Kvothe. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 18:12
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Kommando posted:I've enjoyed it so far. I'm keenly interested in where Bast comes in. Just read the Bast short story. I like it better than the actual books.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:29
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BananaNutkins posted:Spoiler: He doesn't. Unless you count the canon short story by Mary Robinette Kowal where he goes deep and comes in Kvothe. I thought this must be a joke. It couldn't be real, could it?!? I was wrong 
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Sep 1, 2017 09:19
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For the curious: https://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/The-Wind-Comes-Mary-Robinette-Kowal-Worldbuilders-2013.pdf
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Sep 1, 2017 10:26
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BananaNutkins posted:State of the Genre Address 2017, updated Aug 28, 2017  BananaNutkins posted:Here's my recommendations for fantasy trash that was important to the genre but that you shouldn't read unless you want to be a writer because it was good at the time, but its all trash now  BananaNutkins posted:Here's the utter trash of the fantasy genre you shouldn't read ill fite u SpacePig posted:I read Night Angel trilogy around the same time I did Name of the Wind, and I actually liked it enough to try Weeks' Lightbringer books. It was another book where I thought the magic system was interesting enough, but so little was going on around it that I barely finished it. Looking back, night Angel probably wasn't as good as I thought it was. It, too, has a lot of creepy themes about sex that I was uncomfortable with even at the time. Ugh Weeks is so frustrating to read. I want to like him so much (I genuinely enjoyed the majority of Night Angel) but he has such loving weird attitudes about sex that I'm just vaguely uncomfortable in all relevant scenes. It's like he's trying to be super sex-positive (and feminist-sex-positive in Lightbringer), but his only perspective on sex-positivity is through the filter of a terminal basement dweller neckbeard.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:38
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ChickenWing posted:Ugh Weeks is so frustrating to read. I want to like him so much (I genuinely enjoyed the majority of Night Angel) but he has such loving weird attitudes about sex that I'm just vaguely uncomfortable in all relevant scenes. It's like he's trying to be super sex-positive (and feminist-sex-positive in Lightbringer), but his only perspective on sex-positivity is through the filter of a terminal basement dweller neckbeard. That 4th book... every Kip chapter rehashing the same sexual problem. I definitely had that same uncomfortable feeling. Then the afterword goes on about it even more. Like somebody told him it was too much and he was like "No way, I just need to explain it more".
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Sep 1, 2017 15:01
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Reene posted:For the curious: https://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/The-Wind-Comes-Mary-Robinette-Kowal-Worldbuilders-2013.pdf I tried to ignore this post. I tried so hard. I failed.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:29
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VegasShirtGuy posted:That 4th book... every Kip chapter rehashing the same sexual problem. I definitely had that same uncomfortable feeling. Then the afterword goes on about it even more. Like somebody told him it was too much and he was like "No way, I just need to explain it more". Yeah. I mean, I can maybe chalk it up to "I am a guy and so vaginismus is fundamentally not a thing I am capable of identifying with" but it seemed so drat kludgy and awkward and unnecessary.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:39
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Chaotic Flame posted:I tried to ignore this post. I tried so hard. I failed. I managed until you posted that. I skimmed it but it still exists in my brain, and I hate you for it (jk, I just hate myself more I have no willpower).
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Sep 1, 2017 17:07
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I don't know what Lamps thinks, but the Codex Alera series is definite trash. Each book is worst than the first, and the first book is just mediocre. It's an airplane book. It's easy to read. The prose and the narrative structure try nothing new. The characters are all archetypes. The twists are obvious. The most obvious twist is hinted at for like 3 books before it actually happens, and each time a hint about it is dropped I cringed. Jim Butcher's Cinderspires is turning out to be a far better series, although I have my criticisms. As far as I can recall, neither series has the weird sex stuff that fantasy is know for, so that's a plus. Brent Weeks Nightangel series is a mashup of Wheel of Time plot lines with dragon ball (the orbs) plus a Brandon Sanderson style magic system. The first book is fun trash with some creepy sex stuff, and it just gets worse from there. I mean, not as bad as Peter V Brett and the glass dildo of doom, or the "Let me sex you right after you were raped so that the rape won't F you up" of Warded Man. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 17:37
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I am proud to have never read a Jim Butcher book.
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Sep 1, 2017 17:42
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I am proud to have never read a Jim Butcher book. Hey, the Dresden Files audiobooks are good trash to listen to while doing housework. Sometimes you just want to turn your brain off.
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Sep 1, 2017 17:44
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