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yeah, YEAH
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Aug 30, 2017 13:30
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I love DSA Anchorage.
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Aug 30, 2017 13:36
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apropos to nothing posted:I really don't understand all the hate for democratic centralism. I see it all the time in this thread and when I meet DSA people irl they treat it like some weird boogie man. Democratic centralism is literally just democracy. We all vote on something, make a decision based on that vote, and then do the thing we voted on. if you disagree with the decision, you still have to abide by it but can continue to voice your displeasure and attempt to reverse the decision at another vote. The reason its a big deal that people abide by the decision even if they disagree is because if you're actively engaging in disruptive activity like civil disobedience, you need to have a group that you know won't have someone go against the decision of the group by punching a cop or throwing a brick through a window and potentially risk getting all of you arrested. It also means you can have faith that your comrades in other areas are operating in about the same fashion so there's no worry that an individual or a whole branch in somewhere like, oh who knows let's just say Austin Texas, is making your org look bad by doing stuff that the rest of the org would never do and finds reprehensible. like it's fine if you dont like the idea of democratic centralism, nobody is forcing you to use it or like it, but its not This One Weird Trick to Summon the Ghost of Stalin. I don't think centralization is bad as much as I think coastal petit bougiouse are bad regardless of how much class conciouseness they may or may not have
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Aug 30, 2017 13:53
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Business Gorillas posted:Have you considered that if you don't like the idea of rewriting the rules to purge the same person over and over you hate black people??? you're posting is malfeasant
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Aug 30, 2017 14:00
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:It's not a matter of faith, though, as the party members don't have a choice to act differently. To have faith in someone requires that you trust the person, so requiring party members to abide by decisions betrays a lack of it. And it's a recipe for a system in which no one trusts anybody else, which is also the general strategy of totalitarian systems. Trust is built through discussion and mutual goals and understanding. I don't have faith in other branches falling in line because they're forced to by some arbitrary system, I have faith in them acting in unison because I've talked to the leadership and talked to other local members and know we share the same values and tactics. after the violence in Charlottesville for example our community was faced with a potbetial visit by Richard spencer. we immediately began working towards building a community defense coalition with other left and even liberal groups locally. after we started this process we had a conference call with national and regional leadership where we discussed our national strategy going forward and we and other branches which had been forced to act quickly owing to local challenges had all been acting in the same way without having communicated prior to and with thousand of miles between us. our national decisions then came about because of the consensus our regional branches had found worked best with on the ground conditions, not some enforced directive from leadership arbitrarily deciding whatever they wanted.
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Aug 30, 2017 14:04
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love too watch anarchists grapple with the concept of democracy extremely my poo poo
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Aug 30, 2017 14:12
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TrilliontonNixon posted:You know what this person is actually right on the money. We are pants shittingly incompetent. I mean christ if this has got us at each other's throats what gently caress are we gonna do when a real crisis hits? I know this is late, but as a counterpoint, no one gets good at dealing with problems except by dealing with problems. So think about this less as an indication of a fundamental weakness and more as a learning experience. If we learn from this and make the needed changes, we might be better able to deal with something bigger. For all that I am Mad Online about this, the idea of quitting never crossed my mind. I am just not looking forward to 2+ years of explaining this horseshit away to other actual leftists. It's a black eye but it doesn't actually prevent anyone on the ground from getting things done.
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Aug 30, 2017 14:14
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Baby Babbeh posted:YDSA should have all the votes. Dictatorship of the Teen. Also anyone that was in DSA before like, February needs to be purged pronto. Agreed. Expel anyone older than... let's say 35.
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Aug 30, 2017 14:17
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It's better that the DSA has a crisis like this now, with both procedural failures and failures in leadership, than later when you're already too big to go back and correct these sorts of institutional problems.
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Aug 30, 2017 14:54
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's better that the DSA has a crisis like this now, with both procedural failures and failures in leadership, than later when you're already too big to go back and correct these sorts of institutional problems. agreed. Next convention should see hella bylaw changes
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Aug 30, 2017 15:07
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https://twitter.com/DSAAccntability/status/902756947111411712 okay
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Aug 30, 2017 15:21
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Can't believe these Twitter trolls hate the process so much they're using the DSA constitution's rules for calling a special convention.
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Aug 30, 2017 15:28
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Centralism seems a great way to cause splits. Right now you can just ignore national for the most part if you don't like what's going on, but under centralism that's not possible. I mean poo poo imagine if this whole debacle had happened in a centralist org.
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Aug 30, 2017 15:32
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TrilliontonNixon posted:Centralism seems a great way to cause splits. Right now you can just ignore national for the most part if you don't like what's going on, but under centralism that's not possible. I mean poo poo imagine if this whole debacle had happened in a centralist org. Well, we could ignore the national in this case under centralism because the national isn't actually asking us to do anything as a result of this decision.
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Aug 30, 2017 15:34
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GunnerJ posted:Agreed. Expel anyone older than... let's say 35. Wait, can we make it 47? Oh crap, birthday next week... can we make it 48? Or how about, just "anyone Danny's age or older"?
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Aug 30, 2017 15:34
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TrilliontonNixon posted:Centralism seems a great way to cause splits. Right now you can just ignore national for the most part if you don't like what's going on, but under centralism that's not possible. I mean poo poo imagine if this whole debacle had happened in a centralist org.
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Aug 30, 2017 15:35
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Lumpy posted:Wait, can we make it 47? Oh crap, birthday next week... can we make it 48? Or how about, just "anyone Danny's age or older"? anybody who remembers the 90s deserves to die, imo
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Aug 30, 2017 15:47
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Also centralism is antithetical to a big tent org. "We welcome anyone! But actually here's the party line and if you go against it then  "
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Aug 30, 2017 15:55
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TrilliontonNixon posted:Also centralism is antithetical to a big tent org. "We welcome anyone! But actually here's the party line and if you go against it then yeah the DSA was formed inherently not centralist. like that was the point. and DSA has almost 30k members and PSL doesn't release their membership
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Aug 30, 2017 15:57
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it begins
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Aug 30, 2017 16:07
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lol
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Aug 30, 2017 16:10
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schism in less than a year, new record
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Aug 30, 2017 16:13
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welcome 2 da left 
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Aug 30, 2017 16:16
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What's the problem, Process Respecters? When you don't like how the organization functions structurally and want to make a change, this is the process for that. Or does it only matter when it gets the outcomes you want...?
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Aug 30, 2017 16:17
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rule 1: no cops you had one job
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Aug 30, 2017 16:17
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Seriously, just force Fetonte to produce a timeline of his actual participation in what events/aspects he organized and weigh based on merit of what was attempted, and not the merit of the controversial union in of itself. For all we know 100% Fetonte touched within the union was good stuff unrelated to the bad stuff the union does. Then force Fetonte to vote for things in the capacity of his NPC position. If you don't have enough evidence of his contribution against the cause after that then maybe it's all hysteria. Granted I duno what exactly a special convention would produce, but if it produces the above result then I'd be satisfied with any action based off from a logical conclusion of facts. Somehow I doubt it would and it would just be an avenue of reactionaryism and schism
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Aug 30, 2017 16:18
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can someone explain to me the difference between being in the military and working with a police union in these types of situations? this is not in bad faith, i'm actually curious
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Aug 30, 2017 16:20
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Karl Barks posted:can someone explain to me the difference between being in the military and working with a police union in these types of situations? idk but the veterans said they're sorry?
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Aug 30, 2017 16:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE never forget
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Aug 30, 2017 16:22
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it appears leftists can’t help but shoot themselves in the foot when organizing. maybe I am reading this situation wrong? also, why is DSA using twitter to bitch? don’t they have email lists where they can sort this out?
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Aug 30, 2017 16:24
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The DSA is doomed because it's structurally incapable of handling a little crisis like this, and also doomed when its members attempt to change the structure to address the problem.
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Aug 30, 2017 16:25
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Dirk Pitt posted:it appears leftists can’t help but shoot themselves in the foot when organizing. maybe I am reading this situation wrong? Thats the thing, the most heat has been online, its done pretty much nothing to stop actual irl activities as far as i know.
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Aug 30, 2017 16:27
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because 90% of the members of DSA are in their early 20s and have no idea how to manage communications for an organization this size
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Aug 30, 2017 16:27
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GunnerJ posted:The DSA is doomed because it's structurally incapable of handling a little crisis like this, and also doomed when its members attempt to change the structure to address the problem. is that your twitter account?
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Aug 30, 2017 16:28
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Karl Barks posted:can someone explain to me the difference between being in the military and working with a police union in these types of situations? current or former members of the military are often sympathetic to leftism while cops are not
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Aug 30, 2017 16:29
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the bitcoin of weed posted:current or former members of the military are often sympathetic to leftism while cops are not doesn't this apply to fetonte? he is sympathetic to leftism, right?
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Aug 30, 2017 16:32
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Ace of Baes posted:It's cool how the old white people on the NPC ignored the black and brown people on the NPC and voted to keep the cop organizer despite them being told it was already directly affecting coalition work citation needed bithc
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Aug 30, 2017 16:33
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https://twitter.com/Jaffe4Congress/status/902900151072591873 🤔🤔🤔
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Aug 30, 2017 16:34
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apropos to nothing posted:I really don't understand all the hate for democratic centralism. because Trotskyists edit: lol 
Slanderer has issued a correction as of 16:39 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 16:36
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was gonna call this a good respoinse till i saw the emojies
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Aug 30, 2017 16:39
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