The Philippines: Forget everything you thought you knew about human rights

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gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

ihatepants posted:

What's the story behind this? I mean most of the people I know would still rather have Uber available than have to rely on taxis in Manila. I hated taxis there as well when I was living there. I can't even count the number of times a taxi driver would ask where I was going then pull away because he didn't want to go in whatever direction I was going. I also thought Kalanick isn't a CEO of Uber anymore.

Around 2014 or so, we started getting taxi-hailing apps in the Philippines: the two big names were GrabTaxi and EasyTaxi. Without going into the details, GrabTaxi eventually became the dominant app between the two.

By 2015, Uber entered the Philippine market, which then prompted GrabTaxi to also include a "ride-sharing service" with civilian-driven private cars, and just become known as "Grab".

During the Aquino administration, the LTFRB (Land Transportation and Franchise Regulatory Board) created a new regulatory classification for these ride-sharing services, calling them TNVS, or Transport Network Vehicle Service. The basic framework was that the companies had to be accredited with the LTFRB, and then the individual drivers would also have to be registered.

By July 2016, as the new Duterte administration appointees to the LTFRB took their posts, they stopped issuing licenses to new drivers. It's not entirely clear why they did this, but from what I can tell, it's because this new LTFRB has a different view on the level of regulation that should be exerted upon TNVS's:

* The Aquino-era LTFRB was, in rare keeping with the professed ideology of the Liberal Party, composed mainly of free-market technocrats that were willing to give TNVS's a lot of leeway

* On the flipside, taxi companies tried to file restraining orders against the operations of TNVS's, claiming they were moving in on their territory and should be classified as taxis. This was struck down by the courts

* The Duterte-era LTFRB seems to want a middle-ground, where they're looking for regulations on things like accident accountability, guaranteed insurance coverage, transparency of fare computation, and prohibition of "fleet" operations (someone buys five cars and hires drivers solely for the purpose of enrolling them all in Uber and taking a cut)

The LTFRB wasn't getting anywhere with getting TNVS's to submit position papers and proposals on these points, so apparently they used that as a pretext to halt issuing registrations. BUT they didn't actually do anything to stop the TNVS's from taking-on new drivers anyway, so if you use Uber/Grab nowadays, they'll almost always have a little note saying "registration pending", meaning the company already submitted that driver's application to the LTFRB, but the LTFRB hasn't processed it yet.

This came to a head in early July 2017, when the registration of Grab/Uber themselves, as whole companies, was set to expire. First, the LTFRB told them to stop registering new drivers. Then, they fined both companies 5 million pesos each, as a penalty for allowing thousands of their drivers to operate without proper registration (both companies promptly paid the penalty). And then, they issued an order saying that by July 21 2017, they would start issuing traffic violations against anyone who was operating as a Grab/Uber driver without proper registration (akin to operating a public bus without a proper franchise).

This set off a firestorm on social media - because, of course, the people most affected by the loss of access to TNVS's are people who are active on the internet, and largely over the same points you're making: public transportation is so loving bad in the Philippines, and taxis are so loving bad in the Philippines, that we need Grab/Uber in order to have a decent form of point-to-point transportation.

We essentially got a media and ad blitz trying to portray the LTFRB as wanting to "destroy" Grab/Uber, with such ill feelings exacerbated by trying to tie this back to liberals's dislike of the Duterte administration as a whole.

Something like a week before the LTFRB's set deadline on issuing violations, they had a meeting with Grab/Uber, and came to an agreement to suspend the deadline in exchange for Grab/Uber coming to the table for negotiations regarding the imposition of regulations on them.

Over the last two weeks, there have been Senate hearings on these, and there has also been legislation filed in the Senate to create a stronger regulatory framework for TNVS's. It's unclear what, if anything, will come out of the discussions.

.

My personal gripe is that while I understand the underlying context in which Grab/Uber operate in relation to Philippine taxis and Philippine public transportation as a whole, while I myself use Grab/Uber on a near-daily basis, I don't think that's an excuse to allow them to operate with a libertarian-preferred level of oversight.

To elaborate, one of the House bills filed in response to this current situation would require that TNVS's be subjected to the following regulations:

quote:

mandates that the LTFRB issue a 2-year, renewable permit to a "Transportation Network Company" before they be allowed to operate

mandates that a TNC provide a website providing a database of all of that TNC's drivers, as well as a customer service line and a customer complaint line

mandates that TNCs observe a zero-tolerance policy for drugs and alcohol

mandates that TNC vehicles cannot exceed seating guidelines established by car manufacturers, on top of whatever guidelines the TNC wishes to set for themselves.

mandates that TNC vehicles cannot be older than 10 years old

mandates that TNCs provide full disclosure of their fare calculations to the public, but otherwise allows them to set fares as they wish

mandates that TNCs provide full disclosure of dynamic pricing schemes (what we colloquially know as Surge Pricing). Customers must know when a dynamic pricing scheme is in effect, by how much it is increasing the fare, and must content to the pricing scheme before booking the trip

allows for the government to request a suspension of the use of dynamic pricing schemes in the event of severe weather conditions, natural calamities, power outages, strikes, civil disorder, war, or any other national or local emergency that constitutes an abnormal disruption of the market

mandates the issuance of electronic receipts for trips taken

mandates that TNC vehicles be clearly marked as being registered with a TNC, and that customers be given access to a photo of the vehicle and its license plate at all times

mandates that TNCs protect a passenger's personally identifiable information, unless required to facilitate communication between drivers, or during investigations or other legal obligations

mandates that TNCs undergo an approval process for a driver: name, address, age, driver's license, vehicle registration, "proof of availability of off-street parking space" for the vehicle, proof of vehicle insurance, review of driving history, criminal background check.

people below 18 years of age, people who have been convicted of a felony within the last 5 years, people who have committed any land transportation violations within the last 3 years, people without a valid driver's license, people without proof of vehicle registration, and people without vehicle insurance are to be disallowed from being TNC drivers

The TNCs are allowed to perform this validation themselves, and then are to submit the reviewed and approved application to the LTFRB

TNC drivers are to be considered as contractors, and not employees of the TNC, since they do not have specific hours of operation, and are not assigned specific areas in which to work.

Being a TNC driver/contractor also does not restrict the driver from engaging in any other occupation or business.

mandates that both TNCs and their drivers maintain insurance policies to cover claims for incidents involving vehicles, drivers, and passengers while the driver is driving for the TNC. The LTFRB shall set the types and limits of coverage that TNCs will be mandated to provide. Insurance claims against a TNC driver, should they lapse, will instead be liable to the TNC itself. The TNC cannot enter an agreement with their driver nullifying the TNC's liability.

mandates that TNC drivers cannot accept "street hails"

mandates that TNC drivers, when being paid through cash, cannot accept tips or payments over and above the fare calculated by the TNC

mandates that TNCs cannot maintain their own fleet of vehicles

mandates that anyone operating more than five vehicles will be considered a "fleet operator" in and of themselves, and cannot be registered with a TNC

This, to me, seems like a perfectly reasonable framework that guarantees a minimum level of safety and service from TNVS's without going as far as, say, Denmark straight-up classifying Ubers as taxis and requiring them to carry taxi meters, which caused Uber to pull out entirely.

But at the same time, The Discourse is so poisoned by allegations and accusations of the LTFRB being in the pocket of "taxi lobbyists" and that their real goal is to shutdown Grab/Uber, that this isn't a good faith negotiation. People distrust the government so much that, for some, they'd much rather Grab/Uber not be regulated at all.

# ? Aug 6, 2017 00:18

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# ? May 28, 2024 18:12

toasterwarrior: Nov 11, 2011

Yeah, my main method of commute during my last job was a taxi in the morning and a taxi after an LRT ride if I couldn't catch the office shuttle. Taxis here loving suck and I'd rather take the additional cost from Uber than sit in a line and hope that the next driver isn't a picky rear end in a top hat.

That said, you'd think Filipinos would be more discerning of unregulated corporations holding a death grip on every aspect of their life considering the massive mono/duopolies actively doing so, but I guess America rubbed off on us a lot more than we thought.

# ? Aug 6, 2017 11:09

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

The Philippine News Agency ran this editorial:

Oh hey, what's that at the bottom:

Turns out, this editorial is straight from the Xinhua News Agency: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-08/06/c_136503025.htm

They've since taken the page down, but I was able to archive it beforehand: http://archive.is/3sMtc

# ? Aug 9, 2017 04:42

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

I have several friends who voted Duterte because they said he'd show China who's boss. They're the kind of guys who post "brace yourselves, the enemy is coming" when sharing articles about China. They're strangely silent with their cheerleading now.

Now, I know most of y'all have your hands full with Donald at the moment, but why not take a break from your misery and enjoy some of ours:

http://www.rappler.com/nation/178968-duterte-probe-shoot-human-rights-advocates

quote:

MANILA, Philippines � Amid criticism of his drug war from human rights groups, President Rodrigo Duterte said he might just order police to shoot them so they would know what real human rights violations are like.

"Sabihin mo, 'Pulis, barilin mo na 'yang kasali diyan' (Tell them, 'Police, shoot those who are part of it'). If they are obstructing justice, you shoot them," said Duterte on Wednesday, August 16.

"Para makita talaga kung anong klaseng human right (So they can really see the kinds of human rights)," he added. (READ: Human rights in Duterte's 1st year: Where do we go from here?)

Duterte expressed frustration that human rights groups are quick to condemn him but supposedly do not condemn perpetrators of heinous crimes.

He mentioned the killing and rape of a one-year-old.

"Where was the human rights? They could not even utter it in public. 'Look, do not do that to me,' says human rights groups. Nothing. Then when it comes to criminals, you will proclaim, 'human rights violations,'" said Duterte.

He also warned he would respond to investigations by human rights groups into his controversial drug war with a probe of his own.

"Tapos 'yung human rights [groups] ngayon is investigating. One of these days, kayong human rights [groups], kayo ang imbestigahin ko. Totoo. Conspiracy," the President said.

(The human rights groups are now investigating. One of these days, you human rights groups, I will also investigate you. That's the truth. For conspiracy.)

His audience of Volunteers Against Crime and Corruption (VACC) members applauded these remarks.

Duterte also had only insults for Commission on Human Rights (CHR) Chairperson Chito Gascon. Gascon, who has been critical of Duterte's threats to kill, was described by the President as "ulol na mestizo" (fair-skinned fool).

The CHR is tasked to check on allegations of abuse by state forces. � Rappler.com

https://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN1AW0ZL-OCATP

quote:

MANILA (Reuters) - Philippine police killed 32 people in dozens of anti-drug operations in a province north of the capital, Manila, in the single deadliest day of President Rodrigo Duterte's unrelenting war on drugs.

About 109 petty criminals, including street-level drug peddlers were arrested and dozens of guns seized in police operations across Bulacan province from Monday night until Tuesday afternoon, said provincial police chief, Romeo Caramat.

"We have conducted 'one-time, big-time' operations in the past, so far, the number of casualties and deaths, this is the highest," Caramat told a news conference.

He defended police action and said the deaths were during shootouts, and were not executions, as activists have often alleged.

"There are some sectors that will not believe us, but, we are open for any investigation. All we can say is that we don't have any control of the situation. As much as possible, we don't want this bloody encounter."

Thousands of people have been killed in the anti-drugs campaign, Duterte's signature policy, since it was launched on June 30 last year, most users and small-time dealers from poor neighborhoods.

The intensity of the crackdown has alarmed the international community, and activists and human rights groups say police have been executing suspects and planting drugs and guns at crime scenes. Police and the government officials reject that.

Police also deny involvement in thousands of murders by mysterious gunmen, blaming them on gang turf wars, drug dealers silencing informants, or vigilantes targeting drug users.

"There were 32 killed in Bulacan in a massive raid, that's good," Duterte said in a speech.

"Let's kill another 32 every day. Maybe we can reduce what ails this country."

Police conducted 49 sting drug operations in Bulacan that resulted in about 20 armed encounters, Caramat said. Ten other gunfights ensued when police tried to serve arrest warrants to suspects who fought back.

He said 93 of those held were wanted for other crimes, as well as drugs offences.

Bulacan has been a major target in the drugs war, with some 425 people killed and 4,000 offenders arrested, according to Caramat, making it the second-biggest hot spot in the crackdown outside of the Manila area.

Political opponents of Duterte have filed a complaint with the International Criminal Court (ICC) accusing the president and top aides of crimes against humanity, arguing they failed to address allegations of widespread police abuses that have been brought to their attention.

Duterte has welcomed the ICC complaint, and said he was willing to rot in jail to protect Filipinos.

He has often complained about human rights groups criticizing and undermining his campaign and on Wednesday said he would instead investigate them, or worse.

"If they are obstructing justice, shoot them," he said.

# ? Aug 16, 2017 16:01

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Cops kill �pistol-packing� Grade 11 kid

quote:

Kian �Ian� Loyd , a Grade 11 student from Our Lady of Mount Carmel school in Caloocan City, could not even sleep alone because he was afraid of the dark, according to his father. So how, Zaldy delos Santos wondered, could his 17-year-old son have mustered the courage to shoot a policeman?

Authorities, however, claimed that the teenager was killed when he fired at policemen who were conducting a �One Time Big Time� operation against drug and crime suspects on Tuesday night.

Based on initial investigations, about a dozen members of the Police Community Precinct (PCP) 7 led by PO2 Arnes Oares were conducting �Oplan Galugad� operations around 8 p.m. in Libis Baisa, Barangay 160, when Ian fired at them with a .45-caliber pistol.

Later recovered from him were a gun, four cartridges and two sachets of what was believed to be �shabu.�

According to Chief Insp. Amor Cerillo, PCP7 commander, Ian was believed to be the runner of �Neneng� Escopino, a drug pusher on the police watch list. The teenager, however, was not on any list, he said.

The Delos Santos family insisted that Ian was not into drugs and that he didn�t have a gun. The third of four siblings, he was a �good student, a loving sibling and loved by his classmates,� Zaldy said.

According to witnesses, Ian was just hanging out near his house at 8 p.m. Tuesday when two unidentified men grabbed him and took him away.

�I told him to close the sari-sari store and go to bed,� his grandmother, Violeta, said. �He went out but I had no idea that he had gone down (to the other end of the barangay).�

The witnesses� statements seemed to jibe with the footage taken by a closed-circuit television camera shown to the Inquirer. It showed a young man believed to be Ian being dragged away by men in civilian clothes as onlookers watched.

However, Cirillo said that the person in the video was not the victim but one of their police assets.

He also confirmed that those dragging the young man away were policemen. Asked why they were in civilian clothes, Cirillo said that they were not required to be in uniform during drug operations.

�Ian doesn�t even smoke or say bad words. How could he have done what they say he did?� Zaldy asked.

�We didn�t work hard to put him in school just so he would die the way that he did,� he said. �My son was also a human being. He knew nothing. He deserved to live.�

Killing of teenager in Caloocan anti-drug ops �isolated,� says Palace

quote:

Malaca�ang on Friday described as �isolated� the killing of a 17-year-old high school student during an anti-drug operation in Caloocan City.

The victim identified as Kian Loyd delos Santos died after he was shot during a police operation in Barangay (village) 160 in Caloocan City on Wednesday night.

�That incident happily I think is isolated,� Presidential Spokesperson Ernesto Abella said in a Palace briefing.

But the Office of the Presidential Spokesperson later clarified that Abella meant �haply� and not �happily� as mentioned during the press briefing.

Official transcript sent by Malaca�ang earlier used the word �happily� but it later sent a revised version correcting it to �haply.�

Haply, an archaic word, is defined by Merriam-Webster as an adverb which means �by chance, luck or accident.�

He also assured the public that President Rodrigo Duterte would not tolerate police abuses amid the spate of drug killings in the country.

�I cannot assume what the President thinks but what we can say with confidence that those who are guilty of breaking the law, misuse or abuse will have to answer for that,� he said.

�He will defend the police in their carrying out of duties. However, he will also not tolerate any abuse and breaches of the law,� he added.

Abella�s statement came two days after President Rodrigo Duterte described the drug killings as �good.�

I hate this loving country so goddamn much.

# ? Aug 18, 2017 13:49

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Drug raids toll hits 81 in 4 days

quote:

The death toll for this week now stands at 81 as Metro Manila Northern Police District (NPD) conducted their own anti-drug and anti-criminality operation from the afternoon of Thursday, August 17 to early morning of Friday, August 18.

After 20 encounters, 24 drug suspects were killed and 36 were detained. Some cops were wounded according to the NPD report released to the media.

The northern police handles the Camanava quadrant, encompassing Caloocan, Malabon, Navotas, and Valenzuela.

The breakdown in apprehension by units is as follows:

Caloocan City Police Station (CPS) - 13 killed, 14 arrested
Malabon CPS - one killed, 3 arrested
Navotas CPS - two killed, 3 arrested
Valenzuela CPS - 5 killed, 14 arrested
Dangerous Drugs Enforcement Unit - one killed, two arrested
District Special Operations Unit - two killed

Among those killed in the overnight drug sweep is 17-year old Kian Loyd Delos Santos who was supposedly a drug runner � yet unlisted in any drug watch lists � who allegedly fought back against police when he was apprehended.

However, CCTV camera recording and witness reports tell a different story: that the cops forced Kian to pull the trigger, run, and get shot. The accounts have lead to the temporary eviction of the 3 policemen involved in the operation.

The Camanava raids, the NPD report said, collected "assorted pieces of evidence" from the scene.

The NPD's is the latest in the region, with Bulacan tallying 32 deaths and 107 arrests, and Manila, 25 deaths and 119 arrests in their own operations.

The deadly operations, aligned with the administration's war against drugs and criminality, have sparked support and outrage.

President Rodrigo Duterte said the deaths were "good", while Malaca�ang pledged an independent investigation.

Lawmakers, both in the House and the Senate, expressed concern in the spike of casualties of the small-time drug suspects.

The Philippine National Police chief Director General Ronald dela Rosa defended the operations, saying deaths are only "normal" given that suspects fight back.

He also pledged to investigate his own men, as he said he understands the pain of grieving families.

# ? Aug 19, 2017 02:25

Bendigeidfran: Dec 17, 2013; Wait a minute...

Duterte encourages police to kill those resisting arrest

Given that this was after a protest at Kian Loyd's funeral, at a speech about the police forces killing a mayor, this sounds a lot like him giving carte blanche to murder his opposition.

# ? Aug 28, 2017 17:52

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Update on the Uber situation:

In the first week of August, there were hearings between the LTFRB and Uber regarding an investigation that the LTFRB launched about how Uber apparently violated the LTFRB's order in July to not accept any more drivers. During the hearings, it came out that Uber was advertising that they were still "accepting" new driver applications, but they claimed they weren't "activating" them. As it turns out, there were something like three drivers applicants in July that the LTFRB was monitoring, and Uber admitted that they were "activated", as in they could be hailed for rides and take on passengers.

The LTFRB considered this a violation of their order, and on Aug 15, they completely suspended Uber's operations.

Included in the suspension order was a request for Uber to provide financial assistance to its drivers. Uber did start doing this, offering anywhere between 150.00 PHP (~3.00 USD) to 1200.00 PHP (~23.00 USD) per day, per driver.

Later that week, the LTFRB released another resolution, allowing Uber drivers to "switch" to the Grab company for the duration of the suspension.

Also later that week, Uber asked the LTFRB to fine them instead, to the tune of 10 million PHP (on top of the 5 million PHP that they already previously paid in July for their "colorum" operations).

On Fri, Aug 25, the LTFRB announced that the fine was instead set at 190 million PHP, or about 3.7 million USD. The announcement was made late in the afternoon, and Monday was a holiday, so Uber was only able to pay-up earlier today.

Uber was able to come back to normal operations as of 5:00 PM local time this Tue, Apr 29. On top of the 190 million PHP they paid out to the national coffers, they also some 299.2 million PHP (5.86 million USD) in "financial aid" payouts to their drivers. Had they not paid, the suspension would have lasted another 14 days.

# ? Aug 29, 2017 16:18

ded redd: Aug 1, 2010; by Fluffdaddy

So it feels like the plan here is to kill everyone.

# ? Aug 29, 2017 23:14

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Office Pig posted:

So it feels like the plan here is to kill everyone.

First off, yes.

Secondly, this is the kind of thing that tries to provide cover for Duterte:

A classic instance of Western media spin

quote:

I SPILLED my coffee watching CNN�s 8 a.m. news, when its ticker tape flashed: �Duterte orders police to kill those resisting arrest, followed by �Duterte: Kill the idiots.�

A newsreader then simply repeated those statements, adding, as it does every time there�s news now about the Philippines, that Duterte�s war vs illegal drugs has killed �thousands�.

I googled �Duterte kill the idiots,� and the search results showed two dozen items showing the same headline, by news organizations such as American network ABC, the internet-only The Daily Beast to small news outfits like Panay News. Credit its going �viral� to a dispatch by Reuters, whose correspondents have the knack for finding the sensational spin.

I initially thought, �Has Duterte gone mad, and has followed Trump?� As is my habit, I searched to hear exactly what he said. I managed to get quickly a video of Duterte�s speech, at the National Heroes Day celebration the other day, where he purportedly made those statements.

What follows is my word-for-word transcription of Duterte�s relevant statements. You judge if those news reports are really accurate or represent a classic instance of how Western media, or any media can spin a particular quote so as to shock people.

�In the performance of their duty, tell your men that whenever their life is in danger and they are in the actual performance of their duty, your duty requires you to overcome the resistance of the person you are arresting. Not only just to shout to him to surrender because it is a [indistinct], and if he resists and it is a violent one placing in jeopardy the lives of my policemen and military, you are free to kill the idiots.�

That the news story has become viral is of course partly Duterte�s fault. �Kill the idiots� is such a great attention-grabbing quotable quote, on par with that classic �Kill all the lawyers.�

Of course, one can insist that still, Duterte categorically said �free to kill the idiots�. But do you think Duterte would have instead said: �If they resist arrest and are violent, shoot them in the legs?�

Anyone who�s used guns knows how impossible this is, unless you are a professional sharpshooter: to aim for and hit the legs of someone about to shoot you. The training of police and military organizations all over the world is for their men to make it their second nature to aim for the center of the body (and thrice), as that would minimize the likelihood of missing the target � which certainly won�t be case if you aimed at his peripheral parts. Coincidentally, a human body�s center is where the heart is, so in effect you are shooting to kill. If only God had located humans� hearts in their legs!

Would it have been better if Duterte instead said, �If they resist arrest violently, aim for the center of their bodies�?

Would it be more informative if the news organizations� headline was instead: �Duterte authorizes the police to shoot-to-kill, if those resisting arrest fight back.� That would be more accurate really. But would that make shocking, �viral� headlines?

And the use of idiots? That�s Duterte�s normal uncouth language that he is used to, but expletives certainly aren�t his monopoly. I can imagine Trump similarly using �idiots� if had to refer to criminals, if he stops himself from using �motherfuckers.� Should Duterte have used cock-suckers as a Trump aide described one of his colleagues?

Let�s face it, Western media, which we think � given their reporters high salaries and its centuries of evolution �are so professional, just aren�t. Listen to CNN and Fox News, and you�ll get a total contrasting picture of Trump and the US situation now.

As Philippine print media used to be, especially during the past administration (remember the anti-Corona frenzy and their idolatry of the President?), US and European media occasionally are afflicted with that virus called herd mentality.

In the US case, such herd mentality even allowed President Bush to invade a sovereign nation, Iraq, destroy its cities and kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis�on the basis of the total lie that it had weapons of mass destruction.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 03:15

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

I knew who the author would be before I even clicked that. In fact I typed this paragraph out in full before the page loaded to show the author's name. The best part is that my Duterte-loving friends keep linking his articles and remarking that it's refreshing to finally read an unbiased article. Yes, the guy who has an article whose first three words are "The Yellow cult" is clearly the neutral savior of the news that we deserve.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 05:03

Scaramouche: Mar 26, 2001; SPACE FACE! SPACE FACE!

Talk about moving the goal posts. Not denying Doots said "kill those idiots" but instead defending how he said it

# ? Aug 30, 2017 06:16

Shooting Blanks: Jun 6, 2007; Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade

Strictly speaking from the context of firearms training, he's not wrong - doesn't matter whether you're military, law enforcement, or a private gun owner - if you're going to shoot at someone, shoot to kill. That said, with Duterte's record so far this reads like an attempt to plaster veneer over what's already happened in his...what do we even call it now? War on drugs? Because it sure as poo poo seems like he's waging one.

Note: I'm not making an excuse for what's going on in the Philippines under Duterte, I've never been. Just pointing out that one single point of his article is accurate, despite the rest of it being a clear effort to provide cover for Duterte. Before anyone jumps on my post for that poo poo.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 07:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Tiglao is technically not wrong when he says that of course you can't/shouldn't expect the police to only shoot-to-disable, but he's being disingenuous because:

1. Duterte does believe in shoot-to-disable, under the right circumstances:

quote:

�Now, let us be clear on this�I said I would protect those who are doing their duty. I never promised to protect those who are supposedly engaged in doing their duty but committing a crime in the process � abuses. That cannot be done,� the President said.

�So, when you make an arrest, it must � you calibrate. If he�s just using a stick or a bat, then you immobilize him. Shoot him in the hand. If he�s using a gun or a bolo or a knife, and you think that your life is in danger, that will justify the policeman to kill you,� he added.

2. Duterte has previously instructed the police to just plant guns on drug suspects to give the impression of a righteous shoot against someone who was resisting arrest:

quote:

In a speech yesterday, the President indicated that he had given instructions to plant guns to show that drug suspects resisted arrest. Police have described those who resist as �nanlaban,� [translates to "someone who fought back] most of whom have been shot dead.

�I said, O sir, if they are there, destroy them also. Especially if they put up a good fight. [If they don�t have a gun, give them a gun]. Here�s a loaded gun, fight because the mayor said, let�s fight,� Duterte said.

�I don�t know if the other guy who would have won the presidency (can do it). I do not know [if he really could]. But somehow I must stop (the drug menace) because it will continue to contaminate and contaminate, and so to the last man I said, to the law enforcer, to the military guys: destroy the apparatus,� he said as he took a potshot at another presidential contender whom he doubted had the capacity to address the drug problem had he won the presidency.

3. and this leads us to today, where the police claimed that Kian de los Santos, the slain 17-year-old, was armed and shot back at them during their raid, necessitating the fatal shooting, only for his gunshot residue test to come back negative, along with the gun having been found in his non-dominant hand.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 07:43

Shooting Blanks: Jun 6, 2007; Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade

gradenko_2000 posted:

Tiglao is technically not wrong when he says that of course you can't/shouldn't expect the police to only shoot-to-disable, but he's being disingenuous because:

1. Duterte does believe in shoot-to-disable, under the right circumstances:

2. Duterte has previously instructed the police to just plant guns on drug suspects to give the impression of a righteous shoot against someone who was resisting arrest:

3. and this leads us to today, where the police claimed that Kian de los Santos, the slain 17-year-old, was armed and shot back at them during their raid, necessitating the fatal shooting, only for his gunshot residue test to come back negative, along with the gun having been found in his non-dominant hand.

1. Duterte is flat out disagreeing with training methods for most LEO organizations. They generally adhere to some sort of a force continuum model that specifically describes what type of force to use and when. I can't speak to the Philippines, but this is widespread elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

Simply put, if the officer does not feel like his life is in danger, he (generally) shouldn't engage with lethal force. It varies widely in how it's applied, and again I can't speak to the Philippines but it's a good general guideline.

2. He's advocating corruption, don't think you're going to see me defend this.

3. And this is why.

Again, I'm not arguing for anything Duterte advocates - the dude is terrifying and I've got friends planning to go to the Philippines next year. I'm a little nervous on their behalf. Just pointing out that a strict "shoot to kill" directive is not out of line for most law enforcement organizations (though they'd probably call it "shoot to incapacitate" or "shoot until there is no more threat" because that sounds better in the press). I can't loving believe the dude said "shoot them in the hand"....that's an impossible shot in the heat of the moment, jesus.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 08:01

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Yeah I want to make it clear that I completely understand what you're saying, Shooting Blanks. Tiglao is technically correct about the whole shoot-to-kill, center-mass thing, and pointing that out isn't "defending Duterte". I was just adding more context as to why Duterte's rhetoric (that turns into official policy) ends up being monstrous anyway.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 08:14

the black husserl: Feb 25, 2005

From an outsider observer POV, it seems like ya'll live in a dystopian hellscape.

Seriously. Duterte sounds more like Palpatine or Sauron than your standard evil despot. I can understand disappearing a a journalist, but at this point your police forces are just openly slaughtering poor children like animals. What's the point? What goal does killing the poor accomplish besides more "blood for the blood god?"

# ? Aug 30, 2017 18:32

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

the black husserl posted:

From an outsider observer POV, it seems like ya'll live in a dystopian hellscape.

Seriously. Duterte sounds more like Palpatine or Sauron than your standard evil despot. I can understand disappearing a a journalist, but at this point your police forces are just openly slaughtering poor children like animals. What's the point? What goal does killing the poor accomplish besides more "blood for the blood god?"

It's a method to show control, essentially. Every so often, the populace needs to be reminded that the person in charge is 100% in charge.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 18:46

Scaramouche: Mar 26, 2001; SPACE FACE! SPACE FACE!

"tough on crime"

I'd post more about some of the characteristics of the Filipino electorate i observed from when I lived there (Gloria years) but going over it in my mind it feels really paternalistic and condescending.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 18:47

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Scaramouche posted:

"tough on crime"

I'd post more about some of the characteristics of the Filipino electorate i observed from when I lived there (Gloria years) but going over it in my mind it feels really paternalistic and condescending.

As much as Filipinos value education as a virtue, they're not the brightest electorate from my understanding and experience. For most people in the Philippines, there are several dozen more pressing problems in their lives and politics sorta falls by the wayside. Being politically informed even moreso. As a result, only the young who are in school and those wealthy enough to not have many things to worry about can really understand what's going on in politics and those with wealth can actually influence it regularly. To add to that, nepotism is a very powerful force since the people in positions to exercise it generally have enough leverage to ensure that there's no criticism of it. It's like taking the American system of politics and governance and then dialing up the income inequality and then taken to its logical conclusion.

# ? Aug 30, 2017 22:27

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

the black husserl posted:

From an outsider observer POV, it seems like ya'll live in a dystopian hellscape.

Seriously. Duterte sounds more like Palpatine or Sauron than your standard evil despot. I can understand disappearing a a journalist, but at this point your police forces are just openly slaughtering poor children like animals. What's the point? What goal does killing the poor accomplish besides more "blood for the blood god?"

They're all being tagged as drug users and drug pushers. Like, the official story about this 17-year-old is that he was a drug runner/drug courier, which is why he needed to be arrested, and then he fired at the police, which is why he needed to be shot.

Duterte's entire campaign was based around creating this narrative that the Philippines is a drug-infested shithole, and that only he can fix it, and that it can only be fixed by killing all the druggies. Remove the druggies, and the security situation improves. Improve the security situation, and the economy improves. Improve the economy, and everyone prospers. Destroy the drug industry, and you get rid of all the corruption, since all government kickbacks and bribes actually come from drug lords trying to grease the wheels.

In a sense, the Philippines does not have any strong ethnic divisions to exploit, and Communism is too small of a niche, so Duterte created "druggies" as the new fascist outgroup to prosecute and scapegoat, and it's extra-effective this time because it's already illegal and already generally accepted as a blight on society. They're nor nearly as defensible as Jews or African-Americans or immigrants. Any time you try to generate sympathy for them, the comeback is "but what about all the people who have been murdered and/or raped by violent drug addicts?"

The problem is that the economy is kinda doing well right now, and while something like 13 000 people have been killed, they're all a mix of the poorest of the poor and actually-guilty druggies, so a lot of Filipinos either aren't aware, or are still capable of conjuring up rationalizations and ignorance.

We also don't have a left-wing contingent to our politics here similar to Corbyn or Sanders. The opposition are all liberals/centrists, and all their policy positions hinge around being opposed to Duterte rather than offering a better alternative themselves. Any leftist that tries to break into mainstream politics gets tarred-and-feathered with a label of being a Maoist infiltrator whose real goal is the overthrow of the government and the establishment of a leftist, Stalinist state.

And some more heinous poo poo is in the works: there's a tax reform package in the Senate that's going to drop the corporate tax rate and the estate tax, while cranking up consumption taxes. The supposed progressive trade-off is that the lowest tax bracket is going to be zeroed-out completely, but it's unlikely that the masses will really see a benefit after cost-of-living goes up in reaction.

Congress is also planning to run a plebiscite for Duterte's Federalism plan in 2018, which would drastically alter the Constitution and split up the country into semi-autonomous states. The kicker is that the current head of the elections commission (appointed by Aquino and slated to serve until 2024) is involved in a corruption scandal which may lead to his impeachment ... which opens up the door for Duterte to hand-pick a new commissioner to run the plebiscite.

It's also entirely possible that Duterte is also unhinged on top of all this:

* President Duterte says that the Revised Penal Code is based on Spanish laws.

* [Our] Revised Penal Code is retribution. Eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That's the basic law of the jungle.

* [If you committed the sin of murder, you will pay for it with your life]

* President Duterte says that US and Canadian penal laws are based on positivist theory, where criminals are still eligible for rehabilitation

* President Duterte says that the concept of making useful human being out of criminals when they go out of prison, has been debunked

* President Duterte: [Truly] I will tell you the psychology of the [convict]

* President Duterte says that it is fruitless to make a person who was incarcerated for 6-20 years into a productive member of society.

* President Duterte says that freed prisoners do not really want to be free, adds that they have "lost the essence, the existence of a person."

* President Duterte says that they will just drink and gamble and will happily be imprisoned once more. They can no longer be productive.

* President Duterte on prisoners: Most of them, let me be frank with you. They have lost entirely their gender identity.

* President Duterte says that prisoners, even the women, develop latent homosexuality. "You can no longer rehabilitate them, give them jobs."

* President Duterte on prisoners: They are incapable of establishing a relationship with a woman.

* President Duterte says that he knows this because he has been a prosecutor for a long time, almost 9 years.

* President Duterte says prisoners no longer want freedom because of the free food and their homosexual lovers wants them there.

* President Duterte said that because of their latent homosexuality and incapability, prisoners are already monsters in a sense.

* President Duterte challenged TESDA crowd to give examples of rehabilitated ex-convicts.

* President Duterte says that some long-term prisoners began exhibiting signs of masochism.

* President Duterte said that the EU and France just don't understand because the country's criminal code is the Kodigo Penal of the Spaniards

# ? Aug 31, 2017 05:08

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

gradenko_2000 posted:

* President Duterte said that because of their latent homosexuality and incapability, prisoners are already monsters in a sense.

Boy is he in for a surprise when he reaches the last page of this book he's writing

# ? Aug 31, 2017 06:22

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

gradenko_2000 posted:

We also don't have a left-wing contingent to our politics here similar to Corbyn or Sanders. The opposition are all liberals/centrists, and all their policy positions hinge around being opposed to Duterte rather than offering a better alternative themselves. Any leftist that tries to break into mainstream politics gets tarred-and-feathered with a label of being a Maoist infiltrator whose real goal is the overthrow of the government and the establishment of a leftist, Stalinist state.

The following is an example of the rough equivalent of SNL hosts warning Americans against antifa and Berniebros:

https://twitter.com/SuperficialGZT/status/903219827275206657

https://twitter.com/SuperficialGZT/status/903220897447796736

and a counterargument from the small left contingent that's fed up with liberal red-baiting

https://twitter.com/immanuellakant/status/903268749549092864

https://twitter.com/immanuellakant/status/864422985066627074

(if you read any of this and want more information/translation, I'd be happy to help)

# ? Aug 31, 2017 16:32

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

Cool congress just voted 119-32 in favor of cutting the 2018 budget of the Commission on Human Rights to 1000 PhP. That's roughly 20 USD, which means my forums account is literally worth more than the whole CHR.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 11:37

chami: Mar 28, 2011; Keep it classy, boys~; Fun Shoe

Argue posted:

Cool congress just voted 119-32 in favor of cutting the 2018 budget of the Commission on Human Rights to 1000 PhP. That's roughly 20 USD, which means my forums account is literally worth more than the whole CHR.

What the loving gently caress, our lawmakers really need to be first on the chopping block.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 11:41

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Argue posted:

my forums account is literally worth more than the whole CHR.

goon project!

# ? Sep 12, 2017 11:46

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate and Discussion > The Philippines: my forum account is literally worth more than our human rights

# ? Sep 12, 2017 11:48

CronoGamer: May 15, 2004; why did this happen

Cannot believe this Aguirre texting scandal. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by how bumbling some of these guys can be and still get away with it, it's honestly amazing.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 13:25

StriderVM: Aug 23, 2013

They still did it anyway.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2017/09/25/1742511/hontiveros-accused-wiretapping-kidnapping-ombudsman

quote:

MANILA, Philippines (Update 4, Sept. 26 9:57 a.m.) � Sen. Risa Hontiveros is now facing multiple criminal complaints of "harboring" underage witnesses and exposing a text message from Justice Secretary Vitaliano Aguirre.

In a 20-page complaint, lawyer and former Negros Oriental Rep. Jacinto "Jing" Paras, accompanied by two other lawyers, Eligio Mallari and Nestor Ifurong, urged the Office of the Ombudsman to investigate Hontiveros for obstruction of justice under Presidential Decree 1829, kidnapping under the Revised Penal Code, abuse and exploitation of minors under Republic Act 7610 and three counts of violation of RA 4200 or the Anti-Wiretapping Law.

Paras is affiliated with advocacy group Volunteers Against Crime and Corruption which has supported President Rodrigo Duterte's war on drugs.

The VACC was behind the case against detained Sen. Leila de Lima, who is accused of benefiting from the illegal drug trade in the national penitentiary. The group, however, denied having a hand in the complaint against Hontiveros.

Wiretapping

The complainants accused Hontiveros of wiretapping for showing, in a privilege speech at the Senate, a photo of Aguirre seen texting someone during the probe into the killing of 17-year-old Kian delos Santos.

Hontiveros said that when the photo was zoomed, it revealed that Aguirre and a member of the VACC, a certain "Cong Jing," were supposedly in connivance to speed up the filing of cases against her.

"Respondent Hontiveros-Baraquel in connivance with John Doe (photographer) committed the criminal offense of violation of the Anti-Wiretapping Law or Republic Act 4200 by using a device (camera) to secretly record a private communication between a certain Cong. Jing and Secretary Vitaliano Aguirre consisting the exchange of text message between the two... without being authorized by both parties who were in communication with each other," the complaint read.

Aguirre then decried intrusion of his privacy for Hontiveros' supposed expos� but has not denied nor confirmed the content of the message.

During the interview, Paras similarly refused to confirm if he was the "Cong Jing" captured in the photo of Aguirre's cellphone screen.

"I will not deny that I may have sent text messages to Secretary Aguirre. I have also texted the Secretary criticizing the way Hontiveros was posing questions to the witness. If I was alluded to, I admit I may have texted but I was not able to receive his text message or I might have not read because of the many messages I received [that day]," Paras said.

He maintained that "recording a private communication using any device where such recording is not authorized" constitutes wiretapping.

'Kidnapping' underage witnesses

The obstruction of justice, kidnapping and abuse and exploitation of minors charges stemmed from Hontiveros' move to take into the protective custody of her office three witnesses�all minors with ages 13, 9 and 6�from August 19 to September 3. The children supposedly witnessed the killing of Delos Santos.

The complainants alleged that Hontiveros took them without informing the authorities of their whereabouts, without court authorization and despite demands of the Public Attorney's Office and the Department of Justice working on the case to turn them over.

"If you remember, Mrs. Hontiveros was asked or requested to turnover the minor witness or witnesses to PAO and DOJ for a possible interview and investigation but she refused. The purpose of that turnover to PAO or DOJ was for the expeditious course of the case against Kian Loyd delos Santos," Paras told reporters after the filing of the complaint.

"The clamor of the people to help justice prevail on the killing of Kian was quite revealing at that time. Hontiveros refused to surrender the witnesses which is considered violation of the law constituting an obstruction of justice," he added.

The parents of the witnesses initially agreed to turn over their children to Hontiveros when the senator visited the drug war victim's wake.

The complainant said the three witnesses were presented at the Senate on September 4 during an inquiry into Delos Santos' death. But after the hearing, Hontiveros supposedly took custody again of the three minors and turned them over to Caloocan Bishop Pablo David.

Paras claimed in the complaint that when the father asked for the return of his children, Hontiveros refused to do so.

He said Hontiveros, through her lawyer Kristine Mendoza, influenced the three minors to decline going with their father when the latter went to David's residence to get them on September 9.

"There was a demand from the father to return [them]. So in kidnapping, refusing to return a minor is also another crime, some sort of illegally detaining...The other one is inducing a minor to abandon his home or the home of his parents or the home of his guardian, that's exploitation of minor," Paras said.

Paras also accused Hontiveros of hampering the probe into the killing of Delos Santos when she refused investigating authorities to interview the witnesses while under her custody.

Hontiveros responds

In a statement, Hontiveros said the ombudsman must not waste time in what she called as an empty complaint supposedly meant to divert the public's attention from the issue of Delos Santos' death and the DOJ and VACC's connivance to file cases against her.

"This confirms the conspiracy hatched by Secretary Aguirre and his VACC to 'expedite' the filing of cases against me. It also confirms that the 'Cong. Jing' whom Secretary Aguirre was texting was former Representative Jacinto Paras," Hontiveros said.

StriderVM fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Sep 27, 2017

# ? Sep 27, 2017 07:22

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

That article pretty much sums it up. That Jing Paras person was the same one that Aguirre was texting in the exchange that Hontiveros revealed, and the VACC have been behind pretty much every single (attempted) legal take-down of opposition figures.

VACC is pretty much a front for Duterte.

# ? Sep 27, 2017 08:03

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

http://www.interaksyon.com/doj-chief-aguirre-helps-launch-citizen-national-guard-vs-yellowtards-and-other-enemies-of-the-state/ posted:

MANILA, Philippines � Two top Justice officials have signified their support to a newly formed group, the Citizen National Guard, that seeks to battle "yellowtards" among other "enemies of the state."

Justice Secretary Vitaliano Aguirre II and Public Attorney�s Office chief Persida Acosta attended the launch of Citizen National Guard aiming to protect the government from its perceived enemies, namely:

ISIS-inspired terrorism

Communist party of the Philippines-New People�s Army

Drug cartels

Seditious political opposition (Yellowtards)

Foreign intelligence agencies generation international support for regime change

MANILA, Philippines � With the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Public Attorney�s Office (PAO) looking on, retired soldiers, military reservists, and Muslim representatives on Tuesday launched a group they called Citizen National Guard that calls for protection from �enemies of the state,� including �Yellowtards.�

The Citizen National Guard also seeks to defend President Rodrigo Duterte from those who want to remove him from office, while safeguarding the nation against local and international threats.

According to the Philippine Star, the group named the following as enemies of the state: Islamic State-inspired terrorists, drug cartels, �foreign intelligence agencies generating international support for regime change,� the Communist Party of the Philippines and the New People�s Army, and �seditious political opposition (Yellowtards)�.

DOJ Secretary Vitaliano Aguirre, a guest of honor at the event together with PAO Chief Persida Acosta, said he had created an organization similar to the Citizen National Guard.

�Meron din akong binuo na ganito at hopefully with this kind of organization, magkabit-kabit tayo [I also formed something like this and hopefully with this kind of organization, we can work together],� Aguirre said.

Antonio �Butch� Valdes, founder of Save the Nation Movement, claimed that the United States� Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and �European agencies,� along with other �regime-change architects,� had instigated negative propaganda and peddled it to the public through local and foreign news agencies.

They �seek to destroy the firm resolve and popular support of President Duterte,� said Valdes, former Department of Education undersecretary, who also heads Philippine LaRouche Society.

Retired Col. Herbert Escalera of the Philippine Marines called on Filipinos to �wake up.�

�Magising na tayo! Magsama-sama tayo. Isa lang ang bandila natin. Isa lang ang bansang Pilipinas na ito. �Wag na tayong magpalason, lalo na sa ibang bansa na �yan.�

[We have to wake up! Let�s be united. We have only one flag. We have only one Philippine nation. Let�s not allow ourselves to be poisoned, especially by those other countries],� he said.

I can't believe the government is supporting an organization that used the word "yellowtards" in a slide. It's just a few more steps before we formally become enemies of the state, guys!

# ? Oct 3, 2017 12:51

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Buried lede #1: PAO chief Persida Acosta was in that meeting, which makes me super-not-confident about the chances of the recent high-profile extra-judicial killing cases actually going anywhere.

Buried lede #2: the Philippines has its own society for LaRouchites :allears:

# ? Oct 3, 2017 12:57

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

What's a yellowtard

# ? Oct 3, 2017 19:21

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

Squalid posted:

What's a yellowtard

Proof that the internet was a mistake.

# ? Oct 4, 2017 05:02

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Squalid posted:

What's a yellowtard

The Liberal Party of 2010 to 2016 President Benigno Aquino and 2016 Presidential candidate Mar Roxas uses yellow as their party color.

It's like saying DemonRAT or DemoCRAPS when referring to a liberal/Democratic voter.

# ? Oct 4, 2017 05:07

ZombieLenin: Sep 6, 2009; "Democracy for the insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society." VI Lenin

[/quote]

When I read about Duterte and then ponder Marcos I sometimes think: maybe we should have just left the Philippines in the greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.

I mean, totally unfair of me to say that since we Americans were the Philippines colonial overlords, but seriously wtf?

# ? Oct 4, 2017 15:07

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

Cool, PLDT has blocked Pornhub because the government ordered it blocked as per the Cybercrime act--apparently they think Pornhub is a bastion of cp. This is probably enough precedent to start blocking "enemies of the state" next, right?

https://twitter.com/PLDT_Cares/status/916302249109766149

And are you loving kidding me with this response:

https://twitter.com/PLDT_Cares/status/916484322999205890
https://twitter.com/PLDT_Cares/status/916484373741891584
https://twitter.com/PLDT_Cares/status/916484416561483776

My guess is that this will probably stick; I mean, who wants to be the one that goes to bat for Pornhub then gets branded by Duterte as a pedophile, complete with some very fanciful interpretation of evidence that "proves" he's a child molester. He's accused people of that in the past, so this is an actual possibility!

Argue fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Oct 7, 2017

# ? Oct 7, 2017 08:31

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

What sucks is that pornhub is popular enough that it's curated to all hell. It's the LAST place you'd expect CP to show up because that poo poo gets policed constantly.

Blocking access to it just drives people to seedier sections of the internet.

It also underscores the incompetence of the government.

# ? Oct 7, 2017 09:37

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

Are any of you guys still living in the Philippines at this point? Because if so get out jesus christ

# ? Oct 7, 2017 17:04

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# ? May 28, 2024 18:12

Coxswain Balls: Jun 4, 2001

My cousin is going back to visit for a few weeks with their two year old to meet the family. I think they're going straight to the provinces; is it really bad up there as well?

# ? Oct 7, 2017 17:14

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Philippines: Forget everything you thought you knew about human rights

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