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how's the PSL doing these days anyway
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Aug 30, 2017 16:43
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Peel posted:how's the PSL doing these days anyway about as well as any other com/trot org afaik
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Aug 30, 2017 19:53
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a friend of mine tried to join them and they never got back to him
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Aug 30, 2017 19:55
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orgs like that tend to basically have a policy of not wanting members
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Aug 30, 2017 19:57
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they tend to be vary activism-oriented (understandably) and if you smell like a narc or seem like you're the type to be too lazy to show up at rallies on 2:30 on a wednesday then they don't really have a use for you
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Aug 30, 2017 19:58
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Karl Barks posted:a friend of mine tried to join them and they never got back to him There's a Sacramento chapter but they never got back to me.
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Aug 30, 2017 20:23
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they were overwhelmed with requests after the election and it wouldn't hurt to get in contact again. people's congress of resistance is coming up and is looking real good
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Aug 30, 2017 21:40
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R. Guyovich posted:they were overwhelmed with requests after the election and it wouldn't hurt to get in contact again. people's congress of resistance is coming up and is looking real good I get that but at the end of the day I just don't have much of anything in common with these coastal types or well, flatlanders in general. We all think capitalism is a problem but from people I've talked to, typically urban commies come to far different answers than hillbillies like me. So I guess what I need to do is stop working as much and sound out some people for some kind of a Sierra Nevada workers party. The only jobs that are even possible here are agricultural or conservationist. There's just not the terrain to like, build bigger roads to support manufacturing export
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Aug 30, 2017 22:06
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Karl Barks posted:best stalin biography? I've been looking at isaac deutschers and robert conquests but i'm open to suggestions
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Aug 30, 2017 22:16
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Larry Parrish posted:I get that but at the end of the day I just don't have much of anything in common with these coastal types or well, flatlanders in general. We all think capitalism is a problem but from people I've talked to, typically urban commies come to far different answers than hillbillies like me. know those feels; if anything its important to form a local organization in situations like that
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Aug 30, 2017 23:13
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a local workers' council say, a "soviet" if you will
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Aug 31, 2017 00:00
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R. Mute posted:another view of stalin by ludo martens. not really a biography but if you love to hear about bourgeois slander, then this is the book for you, my friend this is a fun read too but i didn't want to mention it for fear of fulfilling a stereotype Pener Kropoopkin posted:a local workers' council say, a "soviet" if you will my favorite genre of post is "leftists accidentally describing the soviet union." someone in the dsa thread inadvertently stumbled upon the concept of a party congress and it ruled
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Aug 31, 2017 00:09
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This exists Fact Check: Was Barack Obama President During Hurricane Katrina? http://www.snopes.com/barack-obama-katrina I had to link it to an uncle. Said uncle has lived in NOLA his entire life and lost a house as a result of Katrina. Someone please sing the song that ends this world. Hail loving Satan.
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Aug 31, 2017 00:13
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holy moly, hail devil bird thing
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Aug 31, 2017 02:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:a local workers' council say, a "soviet" if you will You already know I pretty much think that's potentially the ideal way to do socialism lol. Local rule baby. Besides, in places like here, nobody trusts the federales.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:06
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Local rule is insufficient when resources & wealth are distributed in a geographically uneven way.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:10
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GalacticAcid posted:Local rule is insufficient when resources & wealth are distributed in a geographically uneven way. That's the problem though. I live in an area with almost no wealth and no resources beyond timber. So far federal systems haven't helped. Maybe they'd be better under a socialist government but from my perspective tearing out all the barbed wire plot fencing and planting a bunch of wheat sounds good.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:29
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Larry Parrish posted:That's the problem though. I live in an area with almost no wealth and no resources beyond timber. So far federal systems haven't helped. Maybe they'd be better under a socialist government yeah that's the point. we move resources around from where they are to where they are needed. so like we move some timber to the plains for a big rear end JEB kissing mao statue and move poo poo like food and anime girl body pillows up to your mountain, but i think it's gotta be in concert with the local soviet. self determination is important after all
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Aug 31, 2017 04:28
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there's probably a buncha commie words for that stuff but i'll be goddamned if i read a book
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Aug 31, 2017 04:29
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:i'll be goddamned if i read a book
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Aug 31, 2017 06:10
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Larry Parrish posted:You already know I pretty much think that's potentially the ideal way to do socialism lol. Local rule baby. Besides, in places like here, nobody trusts the federales. I'm being a little glib, but I am very much pro workers' councils. GalacticAcid posted:Local rule is insufficient when resources & wealth are distributed in a geographically uneven way. The Soviets weren't united under the Bolsheviks you know. There were Menshevik and SR soviets as well. However, a local governing body is better than none at all, and even if you can't socialize your local economy it's good to have your own institution that can address peoples' problems and maintain radical socialist thought.
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Aug 31, 2017 07:34
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https://twitter.com/Kaepernick7/status/903026131011596289
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Aug 31, 2017 11:21
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R. Guyovich posted:my favorite genre of post is "leftists accidentally describing the soviet union." someone in the dsa thread inadvertently stumbled upon the concept of a party congress and it ruled it genuinely brings me joy seeing these lightbulb moments happen in the wild, because it shows that the concepts themselves can still be discovered by the average person without a 40 page derail about whether the kulaks deserved it or not
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Aug 31, 2017 11:38
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I mean if you think about it the Soviet Union is largely designed by a bunch of uneducated dudes with a few people hanging around who may or may not have actually read a book at some point So going off of that, it doesn't seem very wild that people would come up with ideas that are identical or real similar
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Aug 31, 2017 12:23
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👀
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Aug 31, 2017 19:57
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Normie Chomsky posted:it genuinely brings me joy seeing these lightbulb moments happen in the wild, because it shows that the concepts themselves can still be discovered by the average person without a 40 page derail about whether the kulaks deserved it or not so you're saying the kulaks... did deserve it..?
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Aug 31, 2017 22:23
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at risk of derail, is there any concise thought (or good links or book recommendations) as to why the ussr ended up a normal dictatorship instead of a dictatorship of the proletariat, and how communism might have a less rocky transition to democracy in future iterations? i'm cool with kulak death being part of the answer; pretending that revolutions are bloodless always strikes me as a selective thing liberals do when they don't like a particular revolution.
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Aug 31, 2017 22:29
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the political party ended up being the total source of power, especially the politburo/CC so whoever was chairman was basically de facto ruler of the country; all the democratic institutions were held to the parties top-down command since all of them were members of the party so all the de jure parts meant nothing
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Aug 31, 2017 22:35
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you can see the same thing in action in Belarus with the "reforms" under Lukashenko (and really a lot of post-soviet countries): they changed the constitution to give the president (him) a bunch of power, and changed the parliamentary powers and structure; the parliament basically makes into law what he tells them (when its not in his explicit power to do so). so you have all these democratic institutions that give the appearance of democracy, but its really a dictatorship in function
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Aug 31, 2017 22:40
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A powerful figure with executive and legislative authority isn't necessarily the cause of degeneration, although it obviously can help it along. A socialist state fails when it loses accountability to the workers meaning that policy is created and implemented by the authority on the people rather than allowing new tendencies and individuals to enter and reshape it. The civil war forced the Bolsheviks to operate on top down military logic which they couldn't shake off when they had won and didn't restore the necessary political freedoms to the Soviets after they had won meaning the leadership turned to factionalism rather than open democracy to settle their disagreements. Assuming any significant revolution will face civil war or the likely threat of invasion it would seem that the concept of loyal criticism of the current arrangement of things should be properly protected at all times because it's very unlikely to be permitted after the fact.
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Aug 31, 2017 22:59
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Hodgepodge posted:at risk of derail, is there any concise thought (or good links or book recommendations) as to why the ussr ended up a normal dictatorship instead of a dictatorship of the proletariat, and how communism might have a less rocky transition to democracy in future iterations? I was making a joke but thanks for swerving directly into "actually genocide and purges are good, liberals just hand-wring about the cost of revolution" and making the process of "tease out the moron with flawed praxis" fast and painless
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Aug 31, 2017 23:19
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Factionalization seems inevitable in politics, and impossible to root out with process or norms. So no matter what, individual areas or people will wind up affiliated with parties. However, hyper-local concerns remain more resistant to ideological factionalism because local concerns tend to attract people most interested in simply effectively adminstering to their region. I think the key is 'all power to the locals' or at least as much power as can possibly be given to the locals, should be. With exceptions for desegregation and other issues vulnerable to NIMBY-ism.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:27
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[vince_leaning_in.gif]
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Aug 31, 2017 23:28
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Hodgepodge posted:at risk of derail, is there any concise thought (or good links or book recommendations) as to why the ussr ended up a normal dictatorship instead of a dictatorship of the proletariat, and how communism might have a less rocky transition to democracy in future iterations? short answer: war long answer: waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar
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Aug 31, 2017 23:55
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Hodgepodge posted:why the ussr ended up a normal dictatorship instead of a dictatorship of the proletariat fwiw if you're using a Marxist category like "dictatorship of the proletariat," it tends to breed confusion to juxtapose it with a non-Marxist category such as (what I gather you mean by) "normal dictatorship." the first one refers to the class basis of political rule, the other refers to the "authoritarian" qualities of a rule irrespective of class — so these things aren't mutually exclusive. as I argued earlier in this thread, I don't think it makes a lick of sense to refer to the USSR at any point up to its dissolution as a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie (which WOULD be a more appropriate thing to contrast DotP with) as for the authoritarian angle, the "war" answers really do get at the crux of it Aeolius fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 00:03
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Two world wars, decades of unrest and civil war, CIA and MI6 funding counter revolutionaries
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Sep 1, 2017 00:20
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Aeolius posted:fwiw if you're using a Marxist category like "dictatorship of the proletariat," it tends to breed confusion to juxtapose it with a non-Marxist category such as (what I gather you mean by) "normal dictatorship." the first one refers to the class basis of political rule, the other refers to the "authoritarian" qualities of a rule irrespective of class — so these things aren't mutually exclusive. as I argued earlier in this thread, I don't think it makes a lick of sense to refer to the USSR at any point up to its dissolution as a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie (which WOULD be a more appropriate thing to contrast DotP with) Also with regards to what namesake said, the problem seems to occur when transitioning from a war footing (which may be inevitable) to civil politics and administration. Bourgeois revolutions manage this, albeit with all the caveats which keep power concentrated in the hands of the bourgeoise. But keeping power in the hands of a particular class and its interests is not in itself undesirable; it is a matter of priviledging the working class without creating a hegemonic party elite, as I understand it.
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Sep 1, 2017 00:21
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yeah, issues with elites are not a small matter and I don't mean to look like i'm glossing over it just because establishing a DotP is the more immediate task for most of the world. but as i've noted, we have a caste of political elites under capitalism, too, so if it's a separate battle either way, i'd much rather fight it with capital already under heel
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Sep 1, 2017 00:49
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Hodgepodge posted:Also with regards to what namesake said, the problem seems to occur when transitioning from a war footing (which may be inevitable) to civil politics and administration. Bourgeois revolutions manage this, albeit with all the caveats which keep power concentrated in the hands of the bourgeoise. But keeping power in the hands of a particular class and its interests is not in itself undesirable; it is a matter of priviledging the working class without creating a hegemonic party elite, as I understand it. So the answer is that we should throw all those
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Sep 1, 2017 00:58
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gotta troll a little more subtly c'mon
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Sep 1, 2017 01:01
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