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Lightning Lord posted:What's it like to be Finnish? 
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Aug 29, 2017 13:00
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Lightning Lord posted:What's it like to be Finnish? As one of the two Finns in this thread: it's OK.
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Aug 29, 2017 13:18
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Jerry Cotton posted:As one of the two Finns in this thread: it's OK. Are you saying that you're one of the true Finns?
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Aug 29, 2017 13:29
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Darkest Auer posted:Are you saying that you're one of the true Finns? MFW (Mongol Finn With hat) this is me in IRL life: 
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Aug 29, 2017 13:30
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The state run company is free to compete. I personally don't care where the money goes because I'm not as driven by envy as you are, as long as the customer gets the best outcome. I would classify "taxpayer money gets funneled into the Caymans" as not an ideal situation, but apparently caring about the society is something only morons do.
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Aug 29, 2017 13:34
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https://twitter.com/top_heh/status/902276147530125312 Nailed it.
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Aug 29, 2017 14:14
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drat.
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Aug 29, 2017 14:23
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animu on irliä  
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Aug 29, 2017 14:46
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This probably doesn't count as pimeäryömijä's either ääripää, but apparently lestat gonna lestota even in the least corrupt nation in the world  quote:Keskustan meppi Hannu Takkula paikkaa taskunsa ja nousee isopalkkaiseksi tuomariksi Euroopan tilintarkastustuomioistuimeen. So you know, enjoy your beer and sausage, peons!
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Aug 29, 2017 16:18
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My ala-asteen luokanopettaja for 3 years was Jouko Piho and I turned out fine(*) so clearly this Takkula fellow is highly qualified. *en oo koskaan postannut tässä langassa selvinpäin
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Aug 29, 2017 16:27
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Lol kaikille jotka postaa tai säätää lakeja selvinpäin
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Aug 29, 2017 16:53
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Aug 29, 2017 18:06
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The state run company is free to compete. I personally don't care where the money goes because I'm not as driven by envy as you are, as long as the customer gets the best outcome. But as it is shown A) the customer does not get the best outcome b) You are a weird person for not caring where the money goes, because most of us do in fact care where our taxes go. Stating your weirdness over and over again is not an argument. Geriatric Pirate posted:So ignoring the complete lack of evidence (for instance, the correlation between growth in the popularity of train travel and population growth) and the fact that you're just trying to come up with alternative explanations, you're right that there isn't that much causal evidence on rail privatization... So more people don't mean more travelers...I didn't know I needed to prove basic math. I didn't know there were zero investments being made in the rail infrastructure of Sweden in the last few decades, do I really need to track the exact numbers for you to believe that the Swedish government has built more tracks and bought new rolling stock since 19-loving-90? quote:However, the lack of evidence goes both ways, and dumb posts like "there's only one track You don't understand how trains work. Wow I mean gently caress, there is nothing smug about stating the basic principle behind their operation. https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Suomen_rataverkon_moniraiteisista_rataosista Let me spell it out then again - it is impossible to add more trains to those tracks without further investments in the system because two trains can't occupy the same track at the same time. HSL/VR is already at max capacity in the number of trains and the amount of connections they can drive. Why the gently caress wouldn't they be, they literally have people counting the maximum safe efficiency of trains being in operation and tracking them at all times. Are they holding out so private companies have an opportunity to use that poo poo? Also the tracks need to be constantly maintained so yeah, can't exactly fill up every open space with trains either. It is, according to the basic laws of physics, loving impossible for any organization, private or public, to increase the number of trains by any of the usual cutting corners poo poo done by private companies because it does not result into the number of tracks being increased! Jesus Christ. quote:Your premise about trains being used by the less wealthy is incorrect, because buses are the cheapest option anyway. No, walking is the cheapest option. Why aren't people walking wherever they need to go, if price is all that matters? Could it be...that...they...want...to...get...there...faster? Which trains in comparison to buses also are? And in HSL, the price for public transport is the same no matter what you use, genius, though I imagine such concerns are beyond wealth creators such as you. quote:Yet even as a proportion of total journeys, train travel has increased in popularity in other countries but not in Finland. http://www.talouselama.fi/uutiset/e...vastaan-6671624 And again, that has poo poo loving all to do with privatization. Seriously, can you actually name a single thing private companies can do to increase passenger numbers that VR at the moment is not capable of doing? Stop trying to allude that population growth, climate change and increased focus on public transport, development of rail technology and public investment on both rail infrastructure and rolling stock over the course of my entire loving lifetime are the result of benevolent CEO's showing that dodgy old government how things are done because clearly if you ask the actual people who use their services they don't seem to be doing anything concrete better. Did they lower prices? Where did that money come from? Did they increase the number of trains in the operation? How did they do that? (And for a good amount of years they hosed everything up, requiring the state to intervene, even according to the article you posted, though to be fair, it's hard to see behind all the privatization dick-sucking) quote:Great, we could also look at traveler polls showing that Ryanair is the most hated airline in the EU. Yet for some reason people continue to make the decision that a cheaper ticket is worth it. Because people have a limited amount of money and other things to spend it on besides travel?  What the gently caress? Do you literally base your entire life philosophy on price? How about rights of employees, safety, rights of the passengers, being on time, deceitful ancillary charges, quality of service, and literally everything else besides €€€, where Ryanair is poo poo?I mean if low prices and passenger numbers are all you need, we should just outsource our entire system to Indian Railways: 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 12:20
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" which suggest you still don't understand what level the competition is coming from don't really make a strong case.
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quote:No, walking is the cheapest option. Why aren't people walking wherever they need to go, if price is all that matters? Could it be...that...they...want...to...get...there...faster? Which trains in comparison to buses also are? And in HSL, the price for public transport is the same no matter what you use, genius, though I imagine such concerns are beyond wealth creators such as you. So which is it? Are people too poor for any other option, or does train travel provide the best value for money? Also lol at your HSL example, once again, a great way to show how in touch with reality you are. DarkCrawler posted:So more people don't mean more travelers...I didn't know I needed to prove basic math. I didn't know there were zero investments being made in the rail infrastructure of Sweden in the last few decades, do I really need to track the exact numbers for you to believe that the Swedish government has built more tracks and bought new rolling stock since 19-loving-90? quote:You don't understand how trains work. Wow I mean gently caress, there is nothing smug about stating the basic principle behind their operation. quote:Because people have a limited amount of money and other things to spend it on besides travel? I don't base my life philosophy on price, but apparently most European travelers simply don't care that much about the stuff you listed and still choose Ryanair. But once again, this is typical DarkCrawler style of responding to a different point than the original one. In fact here you sort of proved mine. You said 70% of Swedes wanted to roll back privatization, I said they might say that poo poo in a survey but when it comes to choosing between trains and other transport, they seem to prefer trains, especially after privatization. Same with Ryanair - everyone knows they are poo poo, yet consumers' preference is to take a poo poo product if it means saving E50 per hour of flight. You're arguing that people should not be allowed to have this choice, or that people's true preferences should be ignored in favor of your government should own everything ideology.
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Aug 30, 2017 13:58
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Geriatric Pirate posted:See this is typical you. You take your first argument, which is that an increase in the number of poor people who can't afford anything else leads to an increase in the number of train passengers, and when it's pointed out to you that poor people wouldn't take the train as their first option, you start arguing about something else (trains get people to places faster than buses) that hasn't even been argued against. Once again try to understand that in most cities with a modern system of public transport, the price is the same drat price regardless of the mode of transport. If you have a monthly ticket in HSL that's unlimited travel for a month, train, bus, metro or the loving tram. If you buy a ticket, it's the same drat price again no matter what you choose. This is the same in most European cities I have been to, and I imagine in most of the world by now. Have you used public transport? If you need to Perähikiä once a year, sure, bus is a great option. Somehow I am guessing the companies aren't exactly slavering to get their hands on Huitsin Nevada-Perähikiä routes unless forced to, though. It's really the commuter/urban traffic they're looking for, in a very small region in comparison to the size of this country, where all the people live. And your droning about buses kind of misses the whole thing people are concerned about. quote:So which is it? Are people too poor for any other option, or does train travel provide the best value for money? Well if "poor" would have any relevance here your line of questioning might have sense. "Less wealthy" is a lot bigger category. Those who have zero money or unwillingness to pay still use the loving train, they just travel by free - let me repeat again, have you used public transport? quote:Also lol at your HSL example, once again, a great way to show how in touch with reality you are. "Lol" does not actually disprove anything. I'm here repeating things I have assumed most adult people know by now, so I wouldn't use the words "in touch" or "reality" like you know what they mean. quote:No, you would need to explain why more people means more train travel as a proportion of all travel, or why countries such as Germany which had much lower population growth than Finland until refugees welcome also have had twice as high train travel growth. Haha, why does more people mean more train travel as a proportion? Well once again let me go through basic poo poo. New neighborhoods are usually slated near existing or upcoming rail networks, for the most recent example see Kehärata. Population growth is concentrated on cities, and the more-then-recent trend (at least abroad) of high-density residential area construction usually means that they are built near existing public transport stations and networks. See Kalasatama, Tripla, etc. Most of the population growth happens in cities, most people move in cities. Increasingly, people who move in cities do not have a car of their own, either because they have immigrated, because they are young, and use of public transport is pretty directly correlated with your generation, because they can't afford a car (which doesn't make you poor btw, could be a lifestyle choice) or because they believe in climate change and want to do their part. Hence, more users. Furthermore, things that are not related to population growth. Technological improvements in both rail and rolling stock have meant that the trains can go faster, allowing for more trains on the track and more train cars on a single train as well. Same thing for safety monitoring, rail maintenance, etc. cutting down on the time that the tracks are empty. This on top of the literal billions of infrastructure investment by the GOVERNMENT. Now name me one thing there that is because of privatization. quote:Indian Railways is a government railway company. Yeah, and look at those prices and passenger numbers! Hell, look at the amount of railway travel growth in India! Doesn't take a private company for that poo poo. quote:I don't base my life philosophy on price, but apparently most European travelers simply don't care that much about the stuff you listed and still choose Ryanair. Hmm yeah I know, low-cost airline travelers are scum who care not for the comforts and safety that a higher class of people do, which is why Ryanair is, among other things, facing a 300+ million class-action lawsuit quote:But once again, this is typical DarkCrawler style of responding to a different point than the original one. In fact here you sort of proved mine. You said 70% of Swedes wanted to roll back privatization, I said they might say that poo poo in a survey but when it comes to choosing between trains and other transport, they seem to prefer trains, especially after privatization. Same with Ryanair - everyone knows they are poo poo, yet consumers' preference is to take a poo poo product if it means saving E50 per hour of flight. You're arguing that people should not be allowed to have this choice, or that people's true preferences should be ignored in favor of your government should own everything ideology. Again, not thanks to privatization. Privatization has absolutely nothing at all to do with the growth in passenger numbers in Sweden. Your hilarious, almost religious faith in markets falls short when we ask for even a single suggestion that you could possibly name for the private companies to make travel either better in quality or at minimum the same quality with a cheaper price. On top of what has already done by VR: http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/talou...ustajat-6609669 Or alternatively, a single suggestion of what it is that the private companies did to increase passenger numbers? What is your answer to both? "I don't know poo poo but PRIVATIZATION FIXES THINGS." And again, you are so far off the point that it is amazing. The reason I have been lecturing you on how demographics and railways work is because I'm not arguing that consumers should not have a choice, I am arguing that it is literally impossible when it comes to rail travel because guess what, railways aren't the loving sky. The company won't have its own rails. The company won't have it's own rolling stock. The company won't have its own maintenance.The company has zero loving power over the times a train can run or how fast it goes because it's mandated by safety rules far beyond their control because, and I know I am repeating it but it is magical how you miss this - there is only the one loving track going in that direction. Even in Helsinki at the busiest sections past Pasila there are only two tracks for the actual commuter traffic, the extra ones are for freight and long-distance travel. There are only so many places where you can shift trains to other tracks, even in densely populated cities. So no, it's not like buses or planes. Children understand it's not like buses and planes, choo-choo and all. Public or private, the customers will end up with one choice for the trip they have so I'd rather have it remain public. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 18:14
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Not going to respond to you point by point, but first I thought I'd post this funny article talking about the Spring Advisor report on railways that most of you were jizzing your pants over a few days ago (because you agreed with it): https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9801521 quote:Väite: Selvitysten mukaan matkustajaliikenteen kilpailu ei kannata. Now as for your post, DarkCrawler. You seem to be missing so many points. I know why population growth would lead to an increase in train travel. Yet you haven't shown any evidence for why that would be driving it, as opposed to the studies which clearly show that privatization is followed by an increase in traffic. Just saying Sweden had population growth isn't enough, because lots of other places like Germany and Austria had comparable population growth to Finland but huge increases in train traffic. Like everyone understands why population growth can explain a rise in train travel. Your job is to explain why that would explain the link between privatization and increases in train travel. Why is privatization linked with increased populations and investment in train tracks? I'm just going to assume you've conceded that your original point about people using trains more because they can't afford anything else because of how tangential you are when it comes to talking about buses and HSL. You rambling about HSL is completely missing the point that on average, and especially outside of Finland, buses are cheaper than trains. Especially when it comes to long distances. Your original point was that increases in passenger numbers in other countries can be explained by people taking the train because its the cheapest option, and now you're rambling about how HSL means that buses and traisn are the same price in Finland. You keep droning on about Ryanair being sued while not addressing the point - PEOPLE ARE CHOOSING RYANAIR. Are their choices wrong? I am also not really sure what railways and the sky have to do with my original point, which was about consumer choice being better determined by their purchases than by some poll. Once again, you're completely off point, ranting at points that were never made. (btw 300m in a class-action which hasn't even been resolved yet would be about 25% of Ryanair's one year's profits) And finally - not sure why you expect me to know exactly what efficiency improvements private companies or competition brings, the point is that it happens. I don't know exactly what VR did when Onnibus started, but they managed to do something and fares decreased while services became better. The point is that outside pressure and competition leads to improvements.
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Aug 31, 2017 14:05
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The government is showing they are not influenced by the terrorist attack in Turku by tightening refugee regulations.
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Aug 31, 2017 18:31
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Rexroom posted:The government is showing they are not influenced by the terrorist attack in Turku by tightening refugee regulations.  Who is actually going to be doing these uhka-arviot and at what schedule? throw to first DAMN IT fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 19:44
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soon well all be safe when poliisisedät get to carry more guns https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9810149
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Sep 1, 2017 08:37
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HerraS posted:soon well all be safe when poliisisedät get to carry more guns https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9810149 Christ, some punk from Morocco waves a knife and suddenly we're giving out machine guns.
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Sep 1, 2017 09:35
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The only thing less suprising than this government trying to go all police state lite is that nothing they're suggesting could concievably have stopped a stabbing spree like the one in Turku.
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Sep 1, 2017 09:44
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HerraS posted:soon well all be safe when poliisisedät get to carry more guns https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9810149  It's a shame they ditched the IRA look. I bet even their sledgehammers are all tacticool now.
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Sep 1, 2017 11:25
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Why is it exactly that cops need to wear balaclavas, ever?
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Sep 1, 2017 11:36
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Herman Merman posted:Why is it exactly that cops need to wear balaclavas, ever? When dealing with organized crime (which does exist), to protect their and their families' lives from identification and, via that, retribution. In general, to scare law-abiding people they don't like.
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Sep 1, 2017 11:58
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Rexroom posted:Christ, some punk from Morocco waves a knife and suddenly we're giving out machine guns. I haven't gotten one 
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Sep 1, 2017 12:09
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His Divine Shadow posted:I haven't gotten one That's because you're not a fascist, obviously 
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Sep 1, 2017 12:37
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They'll start shooting random people!!!1
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Sep 1, 2017 12:44
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This thread, one week ago: why isn't SUPO investigating every single threat? This thread, now: we can't let the police have too many powers
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Sep 1, 2017 13:25
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Investigating things and the power of being able to shoot many bullets very quickly? They are literally exactly the same thing and also I am very smart.
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Sep 1, 2017 13:39
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I, too, think that overwhelming the police with even more raw data to sift through will totally help with finding the relevant stuff.
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Sep 1, 2017 13:50
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Cerebral Bore posted:I, too, think that overwhelming the police with even more raw data to sift through will totally help with finding the relevant stuff. They'll just buy an AI from Tieto which'll totally find all them evil folks, we promise guys (can we have 20 million for it?) e: per year
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Sep 1, 2017 13:57
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Rappaport posted:20 million You are like unto a little child.
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Sep 1, 2017 13:58
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Jerry Cotton posted:You are like unto a little child. Didn't you have a paedophile avatar for awhile? Should I inform Fobba of this as a threat? 
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Sep 1, 2017 14:00
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Rappaport posted:They'll just buy an AI from Tieto which'll totally find all them evil folks, we promise guys (can we have 20 million for it?) I guess that koks never passing up a good grifting opportunity explains why GP is so into this.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:04
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Jerry Cotton posted:When dealing with organized crime (which does exist), to protect their and their families' lives from identification and, via that, retribution. In general, to scare law-abiding people they don't like. Has there been a single case of retribution against a Finnish cop or their family by organized crime?
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Sep 1, 2017 14:33
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Because frankly I don't think threatening rank-and-file cops and their families is a useful strategy to keep your Finnish organized crime empire safe from prosecution.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:35
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Maybe the poliisiylijohtaja should wear a balaclava, that'd be more useful
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Sep 1, 2017 14:37
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Herman Merman posted:Has there been a single case of retribution against a Finnish cop or their family by organized crime? On the organized crime side a couple times, I think it was even the same dude doing them. Organized crime in general really doesn't want attention. Finnish cops are absolutely worthless though.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:53
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Herman Merman posted:Maybe the poliisiylijohtaja should wear a balaclava, that'd be more useful I don't think drug sellers are going to take out their leadership.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:54
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Funny anecdote from tha past I've recounted before, I was at an afterparty where a kemberboyd and a rexroom were discussing how AWFUL it is Finland has laws and police officers! Horrible oppression! Töh sortaminen! Vittu mulle kuuluu shittii! Also taxes, they deserve a 1500€/kk kansalaispalkka because they breathe. I asked where the 1500€ would come from? From the rich! Ok... There's very few "rich" people in our taxbooks and they won't be rich after you take/give their money to everyone else but anyway, they will gently caress off to the Cayman Islands or USA or whatever. But the police? I asked, very politely, if without a police force and a justice system, what would stop me from pummeling yout to half-death (guys were like 150lbs pasty geeks from a poo poo university pre-SJW, I'm a scary 230lbs ogre with scars) and just taking their phones and wallets and walking away. No answer. They were freaking out. poo poo! "I couldn't do anything about that if you decided you want my wallet Someone doesn't agree with me Look, you ridiculous snowflakes and fuckheads, all people are NOT NICE. There's a bunch of us who don't care what you believe in, be it free borders and universal love. They will maul you and take away your poo poo, and the only thing stopping them is because they know they will go to jail and the "evil" police officer will take you there, MP5 or not. I would never steal anything from anyone but doing away with the police and the rest of system behind it is not going to create kemberboyds supersociety of communist love or whatever he is after, I'm not even sure. But we need policing, we need laws and regulations and people who enforce it.
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Sep 1, 2017 16:55
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