|
Kloe and Estelle.
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 00:49 |
|
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2017 23:28
|
|
|
The reason Renne gets so many lines is probably because she joined fairly late in the game and missed out on a lot of plot-relevant cutscenes, so the developers decided to go out of their way to discourage the player from taking her out of the party, just in case the one-line-no-restrictions orbment didn't do it for you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 06:59
|
|
|
 The ghost of Loewe gets on the Agate shipping too. In Cold Steel 3 we're totally going to have a Rean/Agate duel for headpatting rights.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 07:52
|
|
|
 just out of curiosity: Who did you all first guess as the Lord of Phantasma? I figured it was an Anguis we'd never seen before now. Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Sep 1, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
I was way off and thought it was some oroborous jerk too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
Campanella isn't actively tormenting Gilbert and I'd think everyone in the society would know better than get between Campy and his toy. That makes this situation either Campanella's project or completely unconnected to Ouroborous, and I'm going with the latter. I'm honestly drawing a blank on other options, but I think we'll get a Rufina clone in this zone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 21:18
|
|
|
I honestly thought it was gonna be a copy of Kevin, similar to Cassius and the crew. Going by what he was saying earlier about his real self, I was 100% positive that's what the game was leading us to.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
Really Pants posted:
My main guesses for who I would see under the mask were Phantasma-created copies of one of: Weissman's (because this place seems Aureole-related and it was with him last), Rufina Argent (because she seemed to be a major source of pain for Kevin), and Kevin Graham himself (an aspect who wanted to punish him). Of those, if I had to choose, my money would have gone onto Kevin. I took Reis with me the first time and had her outfitted with pretty top-notch stuff.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 22:21
|
|
|
My first guess was either Super Zombie Weissman or Bleublanc's Older Eviller Brother. Then plot happened and I added in Rufina or another member of the church. Then more plot happened and cemented someone from the Church, either Rufina in some form or another Dominion (or a Fallen Dominion or something like that.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
The game blatantly points out that it's not Weissmann behind the mask because he wouldn't hide himself like that, he'd be more like "look upon my face while I rape this puppy!" My first guess was Rufina, who somehow survived whatever happened to her in the past. As I learned how Phantasma worked and how the clones functioned, my guess changed to a copy of Rufina working with a copy of Loewe. You get a hint in this direction if you take Kevin to the Loewe battle in SC, where you learn that Rufina and Loewe did battle in the past, were somewhat evenly matched and Loewe seems to respect her, so them working together made sense if Rufina needed a good fighter to act as a dragon. (Loewe did say he'd have to start looking for other means of employment after you fought him in SC) In addition, Rufina is very frequently seen in official 3rd art while Ein (who also frequently features in Kevin's flashbacks) is not. Kevin's flashback after Rufina's death strongly hinted he felt responsible somehow, so I eventually settled on a copy of Rufina working from beyond the grave to extract revenge for her untimely passing. The idea of the Lord being a copy of Murder-Kevin did cross my mind too, especially with how Kevin describes the Lord. In the end the truth turns out to have a little bit of both.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2017 23:42
|
|
|
I do like that this is keeping with the general sweep of Trails games having characters smarter than the player, or at least able to think of things the player is not.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2017 03:53
|
|
|
Glazius posted:I do like that this is keeping with the general sweep of Trails games having characters smarter than the player, or at least able to think of things the player is not. Or finally, finally, having characters that can keep up with some players. Cassius's Genre Savvy-ness has rubbed off on lots of characters by now 
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2017 07:05
|
|
|
EponymousMrYar posted:Cassius's Genre Savvy-ness has rubbed off on lots of characters by now Cassius is so genre savvy I'm half convinced one day he's gonna break out the game and troll the entire world
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2017 07:15
|
|
|
Rabbi Raccoon posted:Cassius is so genre savvy I'm half convinced one day he's gonna break out the game and troll the entire world The truth is that a younger Cassius was supposed to be the main character of Trails in the Sky all along but he knew that having a perfect invincible hero as the protagonist would only make the players hate him. So he made sure the story was about someone else instead and demoted himself to background character to avoid that terrible fate.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2017 08:35
|
|
|
havenwaters posted:I was way off and thought it was some oroborous jerk too. Pretty much this for my guess. I didn't catch any hints as to their real identity.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2017 16:01
|
|
|
I'm simply going to say that I guessed correctly, pretty early on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2017 16:07
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:I'm simply going to say that I guessed correctly, pretty early on. After we get our answer in the LP, I want to hear how you arrived at the right one. There's only one hint that I can think of (and hell, I might even be misremembering,) but the logical leap required means you have to take something and flip it entirely on its head from how it's usually interpreted. I might have to re-read the LP to refresh my mind on that one.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2017 16:32
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 14:29
|
|
|
- I went in and out of Aster House several times, leaving through the wrong door each time and not understanding what I needed to do to advance the story. - This whole chapter is fantastic. Great scenes throughout the entire thing. - I can't even remotely consider the death of Kevin's mother as his fault. But I guess Kevin can't stop blaming himself. Contrast that to Estelle and her mother. During the siege of Rolent, six-year-old Estelle wandered onto the Clock Tower to get a look at the Imperial Army. The tower got shelled, and Lena died protecting Estelle from being crushed by rubble. There's a dumb, but definite connection between Estelle's actions and her mother's death. It wasn't her fault, she was six, but it is something that she could have reasonably blamed herself for. But she never does. What happened to Kevin's mother was even less possibly Kevin's fault, but he still blames himself THAT MUCH.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 15:28
|
|
|
Epsilon Moonshade posted:After we get our answer in the LP, I want to hear how you arrived at the right one. It's a bit of a cheat, but throughout the game, the characters referred to the Lord of Phantasma as "they," which I interpreted to mean that the gender of the Lord was supposed to be a surprise. In addition, all the interactions with the party and either the Lord or the Schwarzritter implied that everything was about Kevin, which implied that the Lord was someone close to Kevin. From there, Rufina was a pretty easy guess; she's super important to both Kevin and Ries' backstories, the Lord being female would be a twist, etc. Even despite expecting her reveal, this whole scene is great.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
Well... drat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 16:32
|
|
|
And so the mask is finally removed. Oh, and the Lord takes off the mask too. This isn't THE darkest moment in the game, but it's close. I actually found Kevin's self-loathing un-smile here creepier than that "I have you now" smirk he showed Weissmann before putting a salt bolt in him. It's heartbreakingly fake.Stabbey_the_Clown posted:- I can't even remotely consider the death of Kevin's mother as his fault. But I guess Kevin can't stop blaming himself. Contrast that to Estelle and her mother. During the siege of Rolent, six-year-old Estelle wandered onto the Clock Tower to get a look at the Imperial Army. The tower got shelled, and Lena died protecting Estelle from being crushed by rubble. There's a dumb, but definite connection between Estelle's actions and her mother's death. It wasn't her fault, she was six, but it is something that she could have reasonably blamed herself for. But she never does. What happened to Kevin's mother was even less possibly Kevin's fault, but he still blames himself THAT MUCH. This actually says more about Estelle than it does about Kevin. Kevin included, 25% of the cast has been forced to deal with witnessing the death of a family member first-hand. Kevin's mom killed herself after trying to kill him and failing. It (and the way Rufina died) turned him into a death-seeking wreck who caused the party's predicament through subconcious wish-fulfillment. Josh's parents were murdered in a political false flag operation and his sister died protecting him from a jaeger dropout he wounded, but failed to kill on the spot. It broke him and left him with a large amount of self-hate even after he snapped out of his catatonia. Agate lost his sister when she ran back into the house to retrieve the present she was making for him and died when it got firebombed. It's been tearing him apart ever since, until he found a surrogate kid sister in Tita. Estelle's mom died trying to protect her in a situation she unwillingly caused, but aside from some mild panic attacks when threatened by cave-ins there doesn't seem to be even any latent feelings of self-blame. The Ring of Judgement manga confirms this. So it's not Kevin, Joshua, Agate or 99% of all JRPG protagonists who are out of the ordinary...it's Estelle, for being Miss Sunshine. Also, Kevin's self-blame isn't just because of what happened, but also how he feels about his mom. quote:
Kevin's feelings towards his mom are more complicated than Estelle's. He loved her, but her attempt to take him with her broke something in him. He felt betrayed and when he found her, part of him might have been relieved that at least she immediately took her own life instead of making a second attempt on his. Part of him hates his mom for betraying him which then fuels his own self-hatred in turn when he catches himself. Those feelings were significant enough to contribute to Rufina's death when she was standing before him and he made the connection between her and the late Miss Graham...enough to make him lash out while under the influence of his stigma-induced delirium.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 16:37
|
|
That's not all, either. Looking at her standing before me at that moment, she reminded me of my mother. She reminded me of Mom when she came to strangle me.
Suddenly, this feeling of betrayal welled up inside of me, this desire for revenge...so I filled her full of spears. I loved them both. I wanted to protect them both...
|
If I understand it correctly, Kevin's Stigma grants him the ability to control the Spear of Loa, an artifact that is comparable to the Salt Pale (even if with less power); from the description it seems Kevin absorbed the Spear in his Stigma. Terrifying thought: the Church thinks a future Dominion will have a Stigma that can control the Salt Pale. This Rufina is interesting. All the other clones were based on the actual person, Rufina is based more on Kevin's desire to be punished; the real Rufina would have never accepted K wallowing in his own guilt, and Ries correctly calls both Kevin and the clone on this; thus, a clone following the pattern we saw with the others would have tried to get Kevin's head out of his backside (operative word: tried). Next, how did this whole situation start? I'm going to speculate a bit: I think it's somewhat related to the Aureole. Simplifying a lot and I may getting poo poo wrong, the Aureole was able to fulfill wishes by dropping the wisher in a dream world. Considering Kevin's massive guilt complex, what may have happened is that the Aureole, in the few seconds between Weissmann's end and Campanella's pickup, might have noticed Kevin's wish and started to fulfill it. Thus, the Lord of Phantasma is not Rufina, but rather how Kevin feels Rufina should behave towards a dirty sinner like him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 16:41
|
|
|
Not exactly familiar with the parental situation with the others, but wouldn't Estelle still having a parent (A dad that quit his job just to be around her more) would help ease the loss?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 17:27
|
|
|
Epsilon Moonshade posted:After we get our answer in the LP, I want to hear how you arrived at the right one. I guessed it a while back not based on any hints or clues, but because Rufina is the only character who it would make narrative sense for the Lord of Phantasma to be.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 17:40
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:It's a bit of a cheat, but throughout the game, the characters referred to the Lord of Phantasma as "they," which I interpreted to mean that the gender of the Lord was supposed to be a surprise. In addition, all the interactions with the party and either the Lord or the Schwarzritter implied that everything was about Kevin, which implied that the Lord was someone close to Kevin. From there, Rufina was a pretty easy guess; she's super important to both Kevin and Ries' backstories, the Lord being female would be a twist, etc. Heh. That's not even what I was thinking of, but I took that one at face value - the Lord of Phantasma has so much crap on that both the player and the characters couldn't even tell they were female, much less that it was actually Rufina. I also assume there's some voice changing going on, since otherwise it'd have been a dead giveaway. I was thinking of Kevin's "this is my fault" stuff, but I don't think it really came up until before the reveal now that I'm re-reading it - usually, it's "I think this is my fault but it really isn't," whereas in this case it's "this is my fault in a very literal (though not under my control) sense." Edit: ultrafilter posted:I guessed it a while back not based on any hints or clues, but because Rufina is the only character who it would make narrative sense for the Lord of Phantasma to be. As in... the big bad should be someone we've already been introduced to? Epsilon Moonshade fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Sep 3, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 17:56
|
|
|
The one-two punch of Reminiscence and Stairway to Gehenna is a pretty powerful addition to an already great scene. The latter in particular is probably my favorite single song in this game. Also I didn't have the opportunity to guess the Lord of Phantasma's identity because I had accidentally been spoiled about it years in advance, whoops!
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
Epsilon Moonshade posted:As in... the big bad should be someone we've already been introduced to? More that Rufina is a Chekhov's gun. The Trails series does adhere to standard literary conventions, after all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 20:03
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:More that Rufina is a Chekhov's nun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 20:06
|
|
|
This is a bad habit, man.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:I guessed it a while back not based on any hints or clues, but because Rufina is the only character who it would make narrative sense for the Lord of Phantasma to be. This and what Some Number's said were how I arrived at my guess (95% chance of Rufina, 5% an ouroboros person.) Then they introduced some people from the church and modified my numbers (87% Rufina, 13% someone else from the Church.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
There's still the question of where this all came from. The Aureole happened to grab onto some of Kevin's resentment while he was in there and it's not like he noticed the amount it took?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 22:25
|
|
|
Glazius posted:There's still the question of where this all came from. The Aureole happened to grab onto some of Kevin's resentment while he was in there and it's not like he noticed the amount it took? Maybe it did Ctrl + C instead of Ctrl + X?
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
The finer details of what happened get explained in a later scene.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2017 22:46
|
|
|
Yeah, even coming into this blind, I figured that Rufina would play a role in the finale of this in some fashion. They've played up her importance to Kevin throughout this whole journey, so for her to not make a non-flashback appearance would have been surprising. The only question I had was "Is she the mastermind behind it all, or is something else afoot?", and it seems to be a little of column A, little of column B at the moment. On the other hand, sweet merciful Aidios I did not expect that backstory for Kevin. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2017 04:29
|
|
|
Unless this is a really really complicated way to deal with his problem because beating him with a large stick or other more commonsense and less elaborate ways wouldn't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2017 09:31
|
|
|
Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Sep 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2017 13:30
|
|
|
- I didn't unequip the other characters I brought with me either, but I'd already given them both lots of good stuff, anticipating a boss, so I didn't feel the need to go back and unequip everyone. - Zodiac is kinda overkill when there are only 2 party members. Saint, the single-target version, is cheaper and faster to cast. - Luckily this section is pretty easy. The music for battles (Masquerade of Lies) is awesome, but you'll never hear very much of it here, battles end too fast. - The chest messages in this section are a brilliant touch. - The changes to Kevin's victory pose and line are another good touch. The mask has faded. No pretending anymore. - The exploding pricks sometimes necessitate that you use the Move command to get some distance. - After the battle with the second victim, Kevin's sprite gives a little shudder in the cutscene. - I was expecting an appearance from that person at some point, yep. 
Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Sep 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2017 14:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 00:49 |
|
|
I was real glad that person showed up. They needed another beating.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2017 14:22
|
|