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Heath posted:I met a guy once with a Fickt nicht mit dem Raketemench tattoo in a book/record store and he seemed so utterly startled that I recognized it that he awkwardly said "Thanks" and went back to fiddling with the vinyls. Don't doxx me
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Sep 3, 2017 00:56
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I know at least one of you is or was a Fort Collins resident so it wouldn't surprise me if it was one of you
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Sep 3, 2017 01:19
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Wow and after we had such a touching conversation about old used bookstore guy
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Sep 3, 2017 01:27
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Wow and after we had such a touching conversation about old used bookstore guy I got to talking to him about Antoine de Saint-Exupéry and he almost made me late for work again but that's okay
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Sep 3, 2017 01:35
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In the collection of Nab's letters there's one off his many stingers dressing down a publisher for putting a butterfly on the cover of a collection, referring to a story involving a basically fantastic insect. the designer depicted a Cabbage White. Another anecdote is Gaddis insisting they use an abstract painting done by his daughter for the cover of Frolic, though he didn't tell them she had done it when she was five.
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Sep 3, 2017 04:25
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I hate how we got graphic novels and poo poo for The Metamorphosis, and Kafka collections everywhere got a big beetle on the cover, even though we know Kafka was adamant in his lifetime about not illustrating the insect.
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Sep 3, 2017 06:09
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Bandiet posted:I hate how we got graphic novels and poo poo for The Metamorphosis, and Kafka collections everywhere got a big beetle on the cover, even though we know Kafka was adamant in his lifetime about not illustrating the insect. many recent editions of his works are not "irrevocably burnt to cinders," so i'm okay defying ol' franz's adamant wishes from time to time.
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Sep 3, 2017 06:13
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I saw a copy of Naked Lunch where a guy was basically trying to inject a stag beetle into his arm which would have very little psycho-active effect, as Burroughs would know.
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Sep 3, 2017 06:39
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Mel Mudkiper posted:What is obelisk doing it's obelix you drat cretin
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Sep 3, 2017 07:05
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this poo poo is like the book version of "words evenly kerned over someone's face as a movie poster"
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Sep 3, 2017 07:56
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Bandiet posted:I hate how we got graphic novels and poo poo for The Metamorphosis, and Kafka collections everywhere got a big beetle on the cover, even though we know Kafka was adamant in his lifetime about not illustrating the insect. people who've only read it in English, or who don't have a word in their language that's akin to the German one (which is neither beetle, insect or vermin), generally have a much clearer image of what poor old Gregor has turned into. i think it robs the story of some of its power, when he takes on a definite form, rather than something vaguely disgusting, inhuman, alien, and filthy.
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Sep 3, 2017 10:48
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Foul Fowl posted:people who've only read it in English, or who don't have a word in their language that's akin to the German one (which is neither beetle, insect or vermin), generally have a much clearer image of what poor old Gregor has turned into. And that's why you don't read translations.
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Sep 3, 2017 11:46
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Sep 3, 2017 12:04
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Foul Fowl posted:people who've only read it in English, or who don't have a word in their language that's akin to the German one (which is neither beetle, insect or vermin), generally have a much clearer image of what poor old Gregor has turned into. I agree with the second part in principle but some of the strongest parts of that book are actually the physical descriptions (or at least, sensual descriptions) of the creature. It's important that you can visualize the apple rammed stuck in his exoskeleton, his legs sticking into the air (which I always thought was more cute in a melancholy way than creepy, I never felt the insect was gross). You're not supposed to have one image of him but you should have a partial image of what it feels like to be him. The point usually made about the translation isn't about "untier", which I can tell you doesn't sound all that different in German than "vermin" does in English. It has the un- prefix which makes it sound vaguely Freudian I guess but it's not that important to the story. What is important is that in German the verb comes at the end, so "transformed" comes at the end of the first sentence rather than in the middle, which makes it more of a surprise, at least if you picked up the book not already knowing that. I'm not against translations like some of you here are, you can't learn every language, but you should try to learn a few. Some translations do work well and others don't. Hemingway in Japanese works just as well as in English. Yeah you should try to learn other languages, but it's all too American to try to ascribe exotic powers of expression to foreign languages, you especially like to do it with German I think.
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Sep 3, 2017 12:16
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Shibawanko posted:I agree with the second part in principle but some of the strongest parts of that book are actually the physical descriptions (or at least, sensual descriptions) of the creature. It's important that you can visualize the apple rammed stuck in his exoskeleton, his legs sticking into the air (which I always thought was more cute in a melancholy way than creepy, I never felt the insect was gross). You're not supposed to have one image of him but you should have a partial image of what it feels like to be him. The Un- distinction is important though. Something becomes Ungeziefer or Unkraut when it is subjectively considered undesireable by humans. A plant can be Unkraut when it is ruining your crop but just a plant when it's in the wild. Arguably, the physical part of the metamorphosis just turns him into an insect. What makes him Ungeziefer is that the metamorphosis makes him unwanted to his family.
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Sep 3, 2017 12:45
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Every single language on Earth will have a word for "unpleasant creature", they're a pretty big part of the human experience
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Sep 3, 2017 14:50
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Ras Het posted:Every single language on Earth will have a word for "unpleasant creature", they're a pretty big part of the human experience Eagerly awaiting the eventual re-translation of Metamorphosis that describes Gregor as a goon.
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Sep 3, 2017 15:14
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Ras Het posted:Every single language on Earth will have a word for "unpleasant creature", they're a pretty big part of the human experience Yes, but I think the traditional english translation is beetle or insect or bug or something.
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Sep 3, 2017 15:31
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Shibawanko posted:I agree with the second part in principle but some of the strongest parts of that book are actually the physical descriptions (or at least, sensual descriptions) of the creature. It's important that you can visualize the apple rammed stuck in his exoskeleton, his legs sticking into the air (which I always thought was more cute in a melancholy way than creepy, I never felt the insect was gross). You're not supposed to have one image of him but you should have a partial image of what it feels like to be him. I'm not against translations either, they're a necessary sacrifice because most of us aren't going to be able to speak more than 2-3 languages and there's books worth reading in every language on earth. But I think it's very important to highlight how they change the essence of what's being read - nothing translates 1:1 from one language to another. Words which have fundamentally the same meaning can conjure up completely different associations. I'm not American by the way - I'm Swedish, which has a grip of words that take forever to explain and can't really be translated (and has something like untier). And to me at least, the physical descriptions of Samsa's changes become all the more gripping and terrifying when they emerge out of a hazy, uncertain image of what he's actually become. Some of the best poetry I've read in Swedish sounds like poo poo in English, because there's nothing in literature that can replace the immediate force and impact of a text written inside a system of language, which informs its own content by the very specific utilization of words, phrases, etc. that operate alongside, and according to, that system. Poetry suffers more keenly than prose from this, but it's the inescapable problem of translating text not as fact, but as art.
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Sep 3, 2017 16:11
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Foul Fowl posted:I'm not against translations either, they're a necessary sacrifice because most of us aren't going to be able to speak more than 2-3 languages and there's books worth reading in every language on earth. But I think it's very important to highlight how they change the essence of what's being read - nothing translates 1:1 from one language to another. Words which have fundamentally the same meaning can conjure up completely different associations. Well I didn't mean specifically you, but I think it's possible to read too much into the significance of ungeziefer (i misremembered it as untier, same difference). The text doesn't hinge on that word. I'm Dutch. I think I read the Metamorphosis first in English for some reason I don't remember, then in Dutch because I got a free copy of it, then in German. I don't recall any massive difference in experience. I can think of a few Dutch books that are untranslatable, but not all of them are. There's an opposite danger in trying to over-exoticize foreign languages, like how some English speakers will insist on saying Das Kapital instead of just Capital, makes it sound like an idiosyncratic product of a foreign culture rather than something universally applicable. Metamorphosis always felt strangely cosy to me. Something about him hanging out in his room, skipping out on his dumb job and walking up walls and under cupboards seems kind of attractive until he gets hit with that apple and dies.
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Sep 3, 2017 16:50
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i'm not saying that specifically foreign novels are untranslatable, i'm saying that the act of translation will destroy the relationship between language and meaning-production in a novel, and replace it with a different one, which fundamentally changes the novel itself. that's true of reading woolf in french, proust in swedish, morrison in german, or anything else you'd like.
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Sep 3, 2017 17:39
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Experiencing perspectives outside your own bubble is more valuable than the significance of specific words or phrases
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Sep 3, 2017 17:56
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I don't agree with agree with that when it comes to beauty, at all really.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:02
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Mover posted:I don't agree with agree with that when it comes to beauty, at all really. Well dope, enjoy Eurocentrism I guess
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Sep 3, 2017 18:09
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Mover posted:I don't agree with agree with that when it comes to beauty, at all really. It comes down to experiencing a translated and thus slightly altered version of beauty vs. not experiencing it at all. I don't read German (at least not yet) but I could read the English version. I mentioned this in an earlier post but I read Swann's Way in English and it was so moving to me that it was the impetus for me wanting to learn French, which I started studying after I finished it, and I have a copy of Du côté de chez Swann on my shelf now just waiting for me to become competent enough to tackle it. I wouldn't have even thought to do that if I hadn't read and loved it in English first.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:12
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So basically the "no translation" crew is saying not getting to experience Eka Kurniawan "perfectly" means he shouldn't be experienced at all It takes an already restrictive Eurocentric position on literature and only tightens it because it wholly isolates countries that do not speak widely Diasporatic languages from participating in the global dialog.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:15
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The level of disconnect from reality it would take to read that as "I don't read any translations whatsoever under any circumstances" is insane to me.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:20
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Mover posted:The level of disconnect from reality it would take to read that as "I don't read any translations whatsoever under any circumstances" is insane to me. The Belgian posted:And that's why you don't read translations.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:22
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at no point was I arguing that you shouldn't translate books. just that a book in translation has changed, more or less significantly, from a book in its original language. but no, translation is incredibly important for all the reasons you've listed.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:22
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Actually, I'm fluent in every language. Just do that.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:22
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Foul Fowl posted:at no point was I arguing that you shouldn't translate books. just that a book in translation has changed, more or less significantly, from a book in its original language. but no, translation is incredibly important for all the reasons you've listed. fair Foul Fowl posted:i'm not saying that specifically foreign novels are untranslatable, i'm saying that the act of translation will destroy the relationship between language and meaning-production in a novel, and replace it with a different one, which fundamentally changes the novel itself. that's true of reading woolf in french, proust in swedish, morrison in german, or anything else you'd like. Yeah I would definitely argue a translation doesn't count as the "same" text but it certainly just as valid of a text
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Sep 3, 2017 18:24
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The Chad Polyglot.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:33
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Not only am I fluent in all mortal languages, I am familiar with all the dialects of Heaven and Hell.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:36
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I think it's equally valid in some respects, but maybe not in others. As a vehicle for telling a story, a window into experience, an illumination or exposition of real life issues - sure. Everything outside of itself that the text accomplishes. As an artistic, aesthetic work, I think that the resulting dissonance between the text and the novel (for example, the first sentence of The Metamorphosis) causes some loss of its full value in that regard. But that's me, and I'd still much rather read in translation than not at all.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:41
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Foul Fowl posted:As an artistic, aesthetic work, I think that the resulting dissonance between the text and the novel (for example, the first sentence of The Metamorphosis) causes some loss of its full value in that regard. But that value is ultimately subjective between any two people, whether they speak the same language or not, and whether they're in a particular mood when they read it, or what period of their life they're in. Which is to say that integrity of value is so subjectively influenced by so many things, I wouldn't put the specific word choice and associations above other considerations in terms of how important it is that you read a work the "right" way.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:48
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nice more dumb translation arguments
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Sep 3, 2017 18:52
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Officer Sandvich posted:nice more dumb translation arguments
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Sep 3, 2017 19:01
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i only read kafka in klingon
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Sep 3, 2017 19:01
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Actually, translation is really interesting, but not the questions of how much meaning is lost in translations or whether we should bother reading them.
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Sep 3, 2017 19:04
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Sir John Feelgood posted:I agree, it's not that interesting a topic. I think it's very interesting
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Sep 3, 2017 19:20
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