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Strom Cuzewon posted:Did you accuse someone of having an inferiority complex about fantasy in the same post that you made fun of someone else for reading fantasy? This is not a contradiction. The inferiority complex is simply accurate.
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Sep 3, 2017 09:23
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the obnoxious prick whom everyone was clapping for when he was savaging the whipping boy du jour (with cause, to be fair) has turned around and started making GBS threads on the genre as a whole and people somehow didn't expect that as if his posts didn't exude cuntiness
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Sep 3, 2017 09:33
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Barbe Rouge posted:the obnoxious prick whom everyone was clapping for when he was savaging the whipping boy du jour (with cause, to be fair) has turned around and started making GBS threads on the genre as a whole and people somehow didn't expect that as if his posts didn't exude cuntiness Genre fans are very vitriolic and negative.
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Sep 3, 2017 09:35
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Genre fiction is not held to the same standard as "real literature" in terms of sentence contruction, plot, quality of prose, and characterization. This is known.
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Sep 3, 2017 10:34
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I'm surprised you're all just now noticing that BotL's whole schtick is 'lovely low quality SMG'.
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Sep 3, 2017 12:36
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I like both BoTL and jivjov. But I think jivjiv would be better to have a beer with in real life.
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Sep 3, 2017 13:18
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If you had a beer with jivjov, they would talk to you about what part of Star Wars is canon and not. If you had a beer with me, I would talk about whisky. Make your choice. You must live with it.
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Sep 3, 2017 13:33
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If you had a beer with jivjov, they would talk to you about what part of Star Wars is canon and not. If you had a beer with me, I would talk about whisky. I'd be happy to discuss Star Wars over drinks; assuming a willing and interested audience. I don't just ramble about genre fiction to random passers-by.
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Sep 3, 2017 13:39
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So did you ever find the good writing in The Kingkiller Chronicle?
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Sep 3, 2017 13:43
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Sure; plenty. None that meet your existing standards of "what I personally deem to be objectively good and no mortal may disagree with" though.
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Sep 3, 2017 13:55
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What are examples of good writing in the Kingkiller Chronicle?
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Sep 3, 2017 13:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What are examples of good writing in the Kingkiller Chronicle? Most of the first book, and slightly less, but still most of, the second. Plus the bast story.
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Sep 3, 2017 13:59
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jivjov posted:Most of the first book, and slightly less, but still most of, the second. Plus the bast story. How are those well written? What are examples of good writing in them?
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Sep 3, 2017 14:05
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Jivjov already said there is nothing to be gained from this due to your hypercritical analysis. gently caress off.
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Sep 3, 2017 14:20
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Corky Romanovsky posted:Jivjov already said there is nothing to be gained from this due to your hypercritical analysis. gently caress off. Oh you sweet child. You can't make me leave the thread. I am the thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 3, 2017 14:33
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I like whenever BotL and jivjov fight in here because neither will ever change their opinion about these books, and they each know this, but they elect to just slap at each other until jivjov decides it's not worth it anymore. It's a really stupid argument between basically the worst possible nerds, with the dynamic of a lovely adult yelling at a child for not enjoying a thing correctly.
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Sep 3, 2017 15:43
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BotL is entertaining and he at least does the service of not pretending to be on anyone's "side." He hasn't been hypocritical, he's always making GBS threads on everything equally and then made up for it by giving out recommendations like Baudolino. Complaining about sour grapes now is missing the carriage.
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Sep 3, 2017 16:36
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HIJK posted:BotL is entertaining and he at least does the service of not pretending to be on anyone's "side." He hasn't been hypocritical, he's always making GBS threads on everything equally and then made up for it by giving out recommendations like Baudolino. Complaining about sour grapes now is missing the carriage. He's been described as hypERcritical, not hypo. But in any case, JivJov's issue is that he can't recognize the difference between liking something and that thing being good or not. If he likes it, it must be good, because he likes it and he likes good things. I can point at several flaws in Wheel of Time and say it has far less value to society than Nausea or The Stranger, but I like it anyway. It doesn't suddenly become good though.
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Sep 3, 2017 16:42
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Depends on how we're defining "good". "Being enjoyable to read" is a pretty important criteria for a book. To use a tired old food analogy; a fast food burger can taste good or provide good "comfort food" emotions, while also being bad in terms of nutritional value.
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Sep 3, 2017 17:09
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jivjov admits that the books are literally bad for you like fast food, but insist that they're still good. Give a round of applause for the Incredible Cretin, everyone.
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Sep 3, 2017 17:18
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And I can understand all of that, I'm just rolling my eyes that it was all cool until BotL gored the sacred Jim Butcher/Harry Dresden cow and THAT was the last straw. Like, really? This thread is more fun when everyone is making GBS threads on Rothfuss for being a fussy writer suffering from imposter syndrome.
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Sep 3, 2017 17:20
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:jivjov admits that the books are literally bad for you like fast food, but insist that they're still good. Give a round of applause for the Incredible Cretin, everyone. 1) you completely missed my entire point, and 2) I like how your response is to just hurl personal insults. Real nice ad hom you've got there. jivjov fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Sep 3, 2017 |
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Sep 3, 2017 17:34
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jivjov posted:1) you completely missed my entire point, and 2) I like how your response is to just hurl personal insults. Real nice as hom you've got there. Just insulting someone doesn't make it an ad hom. "You are a cretin, therefore your arguments are poo poo" would be an ad hominem "Your arguments are poo poo, therefore you are a cretin" is not an ad hominem Andrast fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Sep 3, 2017 |
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Sep 3, 2017 17:47
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jivjov posted:1) you completely missed my entire point, and 2) I like how your response is to just hurl personal insults. Real nice as hom you've got there. lol you have been on Something Awful for a decade in two weeks, you oversensitive child. Real nice rear end home I've got indeed.
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Sep 3, 2017 17:47
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By the way, since Kingkiller discussion has basically been exhausted, some time ago Hieronymus Alloy gently prodded me to start my own thread for reviews instead of blessing the scifi/fantasy general thread with them. So I'm preparing to start a new general genre trashing discussion, where can freely vomit on Butcherwork and Sanderspergson and whatever, and also discuss good books maybe. I just need a backlog of reviews before starting, so look forward to it! Maybe I'll even finish that epilogue thing to the Let's Read.
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Sep 3, 2017 |
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Sep 3, 2017 18:18
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Atlas Hugged posted:But in any case, JivJov's issue is that he can't recognize the difference between liking something and that thing being good or not. If he likes it, it must be good, because he likes it and he likes good things. It's probably genetic, I can imagine a similar category error saved him from ending up in a dumpster as a baby.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:By the way, since Kingkiller discussion has basically been exhausted, some time ago Hieronymus Alloy gently prodded me to start my own thread for reviews. So I'm preparing to start a new general genre trashing discussion, where can freely vomit on Butcherwork and Sanderspergson and whatever, and also discuss good books maybe. I just need a backlog of reviews before starting, so look forward to it! Maybe I'll even finish that epilogue thing to the Let's Read. Post a link in here when it goes up.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:28
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Jiv Jov and Lamps are the same person posting with two accounts.
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Sep 3, 2017 19:15
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This thread has two posters. The other is Corky Romanovsky who is late to the scene and doesn't get the joke.
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Sep 3, 2017 19:23
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HIJK posted:And I can understand all of that, I'm just rolling my eyes that it was all cool until BotL gored the sacred Jim Butcher/Harry Dresden cow and THAT was the last straw. Like, really? I prefer making GBS threads on Rothfuss for being a misogynist and an rear end in a top hat who uses his fiction to live out his teenage sex fantasies and espouse his deep found commitment to the position that women enjoy being dominated and need saved.
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Sep 3, 2017 20:00
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ZombieLenin posted:I prefer making GBS threads on Rothfuss for being a misogynist and an rear end in a top hat who uses his fiction to live out his teenage sex fantasies and espouse his deep found commitment to the position that women enjoy being dominated and need saved. HAI GUYS LEMME TELL YOU ABOUT THAT TIME I FOUND OUT AN OLD CLASSMATE MAKES PORN ONLINE AND HOW THIS PERSONALLY AFFECTS ME ME ME
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Sep 3, 2017 20:34
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
I mean, it depends. Most genre fiction is trying to be entertainment reads with subject matter that we enjoy. Some usually contain some criticism of the modern world or a lens on which to view our current predicaments, but that isn't their primary goal. Whereas I think "good literature" tries to do the latter much more often. But again, why are you in this thread if you think all genre fiction is trash and the people who read them have inferiority complexes? Are you just a troll?
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Sep 3, 2017 22:09
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I change my mind. I don't wanna drink with either of you.
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Sep 3, 2017 22:13
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HIJK posted:HAI GUYS LEMME TELL YOU ABOUT THAT TIME I FOUND OUT AN OLD CLASSMATE MAKES PORN ONLINE AND HOW THIS PERSONALLY AFFECTS ME ME ME Truth be told Rothfuss had me when his protagonist turned a literal sex goddess into his personal whore. 
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Sep 3, 2017 23:38
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HIJK posted:And I can understand all of that, I'm just rolling my eyes that it was all cool until BotL gored the sacred Jim Butcher/Harry Dresden cow and THAT was the last straw. Like, really? I'm fine with all that, I just think responding to someone with the Western Canon is precious as hell, if it isn't an outright fakepost. And with what people have said about the later installments I'm glad I stopped reading that with the third book 
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Sep 4, 2017 00:14
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Ccs posted:I mean, it depends. Most genre fiction is trying to be entertainment reads with subject matter that we enjoy. Some usually contain some criticism of the modern world or a lens on which to view our current predicaments, but that isn't their primary goal. Whereas I think "good literature" tries to do the latter much more often. It can be entertainment and be bad. In fact, most entertainment is. jivjov posted:Depends on how we're defining "good". "Being enjoyable to read" is a pretty important criteria for a book. I think it's pretty clear how BotL has been defining good. He has pages of supporting evidence based on objective markers and contrasting examples. You've only been offer empty relativism in response. You are entertained, so it's good. But I can equally say, "I was not entertained, so it was bad." No discussion is able to take place. BotL has attempted to get you to participate in a constructive discussion of a book you claim to be passionate about, rereading it regularly. But you are unable to muster anything beyond, "The pages between the first and the last are good writing because I enjoy them." And that says nothing. You are completely ignoring that you can be critical of the prose while enjoying the story or vice-versa. You can admit that the book says nothing deeper about the human condition. You could also point out that there are other, similar books that do the same thing this book is attempting but better. None of these approaches to criticism are mutually exclusive with your enjoyment of the text. But they are areas where we can actually talk about the drat book in a meaningful way. Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 02:44
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Ccs posted:I mean, it depends. Most genre fiction is trying to be entertainment reads with subject matter that we enjoy. Some usually contain some criticism of the modern world or a lens on which to view our current predicaments, but that isn't their primary goal. Whereas I think "good literature" tries to do the latter much more often. If you think genre fiction is good, why are you in this thread where it's regularly savaged? Are you just stupid?
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Sep 4, 2017 05:02
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Atlas Hugged posted:It can be entertainment and be bad. In fact, most entertainment is. Whoa whoa let's not try to bring reason to this thread, you'll kill the fun.
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Sep 4, 2017 07:32
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Aubrey/Maturin is entertaining AND literature. There's no reason genre fiction can't be both. Use of Weapons by Ian M. Banks. The Road by Cormac McCarthy. The Long Walk by Stephen King. Blindsight by Peter Watts. Maybe The Passage by Justin Cronin. Cat's Cradle by Vonnegut. Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. To find fantasy that is also "literature" is rare. The last time it really happened was Tolkien, whose work had such a thematic depth that it stepped outside the genre. That can't happen again by doing the exact same thing Tolkien did, which is what people have been trying to do for 70 years. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 07:48
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The "best" fantasy literature is hard to find because its so common for writers to work within another existing concept or framework. You either get Tolkien-esque elves and dwarves with a twist, Vancian/wizard society type magic, pseudo-oriental inspired settings, or going all in on gritty dark rape-murder to try to make it serious.
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Sep 4, 2017 08:09
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