Twin Peaks: We are like the poster who posts & then lives inside the post.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Twin Peaks: We are like the poster who posts & then lives inside the post.

«‹›519 »

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Kurtofan posted:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

It's happening again.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 15, 2024 00:17

Rageaholic: May 31, 2005; Old Town Road to EGOT

Pinterest Mom posted:

I think it's pretty explicitly there to try to catch a glimpse of Mother - hence the filming and thorough documentation.

Who would do that though? I would assume that Booper/the Chalfonts/other Lodge spirits are already aware of Mother's existence and appearance and such. The only other character we know of that knew about Mother (besides Sarah Palmer who was Mother's host) is Gordon Cole, and it really doesn't seem like the glass box operation was an FBI job.

Kurtofan posted:

what year is it

Present day. Well, whenever the season was filmed. Carrie (formerly Laura) has aged 25 years.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:44

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Rageaholic Monkey posted:

Who would do that though? I would assume that Booper/the Chalfonts/other Lodge spirits are already aware of Mother's existence and appearance and such. The only other character we know of that knew about Mother (besides Sarah Palmer who was Mother's host) is Gordon Cole, and it really doesn't seem like the glass box operation was an FBI job.
Present day. Well, whenever the season was filmed. Carrie (formerly Laura) has aged 25 years.

So she's Laura's daughter?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:46

NObodyNOWHERE: Apr 24, 2007; Now we are all sons of bitches.; Hell Gem

General Dog posted:

So Cooper is retrieving Laura because she's a cog in the Fireman's plan to take down Judy, just as one punch man was part of the plan to take down BOB.

I wouldn't assume that the Fireman was the source of the plan, but yes it seems clear to me that Cooper has some reason in mind for finding Laura and bringing her back to her house in Twin Peaks. If he was just trying to "save her" then tracking her down from relative obscurity and dragging her back to the epicenter of a storm of spiritual/psychic malevolence and the place her own previous lifetime of abuse hundreds of miles away seems a uniquely stupid idea. My personal guess is that he would be doing something akin to baiting the hook by bringing her there. That's no better than a guess though.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:47

Cromulent: Dec 22, 2002; People are under a lot of stress, Bradley.

kaworu posted:

I would urge people to re-watch Episode 8 (Episode Infinity?) because as far as I'm concerned that episode is like the Rosetta stone of the series that's telling us how to view and interpret what we are seeing, and to try and at least understand some of the mechanics at work. It may be as complicated as that golden system of tubes and gears in The Fireman's Place, but it's there, I think, in emotional ways and actual ways.

I dunno, I remember that like 95% of people here "got" episode 8. It was arguably the most abstract thing in Twin Peaks history, yet everyone here was pretty much reading it loud and clear, despite the lack of dialogue. Seems like an apples and oranges thing to apply that to episode 18.

And it's funny that someone just mentioned thinking that S3 would start with something like 18, because I just had the thought that 18 takes place before the events of S3. I'll need to rewatch 18 to see if that has any merit at all, but what was tricky to me is that RichardCoop has a clear memory of Laura/Sarah/Leland/Twin Peaks, but was utterly confused by Richard and Linda, as if he hadn't talked to The Fireman yet.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:47

kaworu: Jul 23, 2004

I think there will be a season 4. I just don't think Lynch would have ended it quite that way otherwise.

Also, I'm still trying to figure where the footage of what really looked like Old Cooper leading FWWM-Laura through the woods. Is that... just CGI and trickery with doubles? Obviously the footage with James was new and nor even used in Missing Pieces or the original FWWM to my recollection... Right?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:48

Jimbot: Jul 22, 2008

Season 4 or a movie. I can see either one happening.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:49

SeANMcBAY: Jun 28, 2006; Look on the bright side.

If there is a season 4, I hope they hurry the hell up with it before more cast members die.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:52

Cartridgeblowers: Jan 3, 2006; Super Mario Bros 3

Theory and analysis, long and meandering so feel free to skip:

In Part 2, the Arm-tree discusses the number 253 with Cooper, along with the phrase "time and time again." In Sheriff Truman's office, time begins to get wonky and the clock moves back and forth. Time is stuck at exactly 2:53. This is where the Arm is going to call Cooper back for the next phase of their plan: to save Laura Palmer, because to quote the Log Lady in both Season 3 and the Bravo introduction to the pilot: "Laura is the One." What this means is ambiguous, but she seems to be the antithesis to Judy.

From there the Lodge pulls away those with knowledge of just what the hell is going on: Coop and Diane who had been trapped living inside the White Lodge as Naido, and Cooper calls for Gordon at the last moment taking him, too. For those in the Sheriff station, time is frozen at 2:53. Cooper is taken to yet another back entrance to the Lodges - the Great Northern basement - and uses his own room key to open it (obviously this makes no sense - perhaps the key was attuned to the Lodges since he took it with him inside? Lodge logic is illogical). From there things are pretty plain: the plan of Cooper and Mike is to time-travel via Jeffries, the only human who has time-travelled in the series thus far, using the non-linearity of the Lodges, and save Laura Palmer from her fate.

Cooper succeeds in saving Laura's life. When she is whisked away at the end of Part 17, she is taken by the White Lodge (which is obviously the "home" where the Cooper in the FWWM timeline is taking her to, not the Palmer household) to a new, safer life - as Carrie Page in Odessa, TX. The White Lodge entrance is at Jack Rabbit's Palace and Odessa, TX is home to the world's largest jackrabbit. Laura's memories are perhaps Dougie'd and she lives her new life there.

Twin Peaks the Series is not entirely undone. There is still a Missing Persons case for Cooper to investigate in the town. BOB is still there for them to battle. Coop would still follow Annie into Glastonbury Grove. Nothing major is undone except Laura's murder. We can assume FWWM ends with Leland going to the Cabin, finding only Ronette, and becoming increasingly hostile. It's possible he even kills Ronette there, but the disappearance of the troubled prom queen is just as likely to set off the town just as much as her murder.

From Laura's disappearance Coop is pulled into his own past, but things in the Red Room are different. The Arm-tree echoes Audrey's lines in her dreamreality ("Is it the story of the little girl who lived down the lane? Is it?"), hinting that Audrey might have been deposited there - perhaps the nurse who took Annie's owl ring transferred it to Audrey somehow? Coop's reaction to Dead-Laura's whispering is different, too: In episode 2 it was a pained grunt but now it's a "huh" of confusion. The Red Room Cooper we see in Part 18 is learning all of this for the first time, but now knows what he has to do. This is solidified by Leland's urging him to "find Laura," which is the key to everything. Note: This is not the Doppelganger Leland but the real one without BOB corruption - Doppelgangers have grey eyes in the Lodge, as seen in the Season 2 finale and with DoppelCoop in the beginning of Part 18.

Part 2's version of all of this is different. After meeting with the Arm-Tree Cooper emerges into a Red Room hallway with some weird shifting effects. He then heads for a curtain but is blocked and has to turn back. In Part 2 Cooper finds Leland as well but enters FROM THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROOM. In Part 18, instead of being blocked he uses whatever Lodge power/knowledge he has and opens the entrance to Glastonbury, the same way he came in. There Diane is waiting for him, but it is 25 years later in the Laura-dead timeline. Cooper has to awaken Laura, but she's not alive here.

Here Cooper and Diane retain the knowledge, despite the fact that they're now probably somewhere around Part 1 of Season 3 time-wise, hence why they question their identities (having been replaced by Doppelgangers and Tulpas respectively). Thanks to Cooper's intuitive understanding of the Fireman's cryptic clues, he knows how to get to the reality where he saved Laura - driving to the point where he and Diane cross realities, though there is danger they may lose themselves. Cooper can feel the electricity there and even sees another symbol of Judy - the electric tower. He looks at his watch (is it 2:53?) and steadies himself. I'm not sure exactly where they are geographically at this point - 430 miles away from Twin Peaks, it would seem. They drive through the gate and come out in darkness, changed.

Their new selves are Richard and Linda, new lives not unlike Dougie for Coop before. They are both in danger here of losing their true personalities in this world where Laura survived. They pull up to a motel (the same one where Jeffries stays?) and Diane sees her true self reaching out. The true Diane disappears. They sleep together in the hotel room, Cooper obviously different as well. During their lovemaking, Diane covers Cooper's face as she is subsumed by her new self - she no longer recognizes Richard, because he's still mostly Cooper. Horrified, Linda leaves in the middle of the night.

Cooper awakens, confused, but recalls the Fireman's message vaguely when he reads the note. He emerges from the room into a different parking lot, now in Odessa, and in fact with a different car (Richard's?), though he pauses - he's a bit confused by the situation, but resigns himself to the mission: Find Laura.

He wanders to Judy's, assuming he's been put in the right place and right time just like the Fireman put DoppelCoop in the right place and right time to get taken out by Lucy and Freddie. Coop expects to find Laura here but does not and goes on a hunch that Alive-Laura is still connected to Judy's. His temperament is changed by becoming Richard - he is more harsh, but still has an unchecked sense of what is good. Dale Cooper is a cowboy hero and he saves a random waitress on the way to finding Laura.

At Alive-Laura's house he sees the pole and hears electricity, a sign that he's on the right track. Here he meets Carrie Page, the Dougie Jones to her Laura Palmer - notable, however, is that Kyle MacLachlan is never credited as Dougie Jones, but Sheryl Lee receives a credit for both Laura AND Carrie. At the front door Carrie has no knowledge of Laura but does seem to bristle at the mention of Sarah Palmer (most certainly Judy/the Jumping Man and I would also assume most certainly the girl who ate the Frogroach). Coop wants to bring Laura to Sarah for unexplained reasons - possibly to destroy Judy.

In Carrie's house, Coop finds a few odd things: a corpse with what looks to be a BOB orb emerging from its stomach, a white horse in front of a blue plate, and white paint next to an assault rifle. It would appear that Carrie is still being attacked by agents of Judy even in this reality, though she can kill them. She is attempting to hide her self-defense murder by painting over the scene of the crime, though it's been awhile as the corpse is attracting flies. The horse is decor, but looks like a pupil: the horse is the white of the eyes. Carrie is being watched.

Carrie and Cooper travel to Twin Peaks where Carrie falls asleep and Laura peeks through ("In those days I was too young to know any better"). They arrive at their destination but are met by Lodge Spirits (now Tremond, before Chalfont) at the door to the Palmer Household. It's unclear whether Cooper knows the Chalfont/Tremond/lodge connection, but he definitely recalls the name Chalfont from Carl Rodd's explanation of the trailer in FWWM. The fact that Alice Tremond and her husband seem to be awake when it's obviously early morning (the RR Diner is closed) should be hint that they're a front.

Dejectedly Cooper leaves with Carrie, but he reconsiders. He hears a bit of radio static, stumbles a bit, and asks "What year is this?" It's the "future", not the "past," though Cooper isn't so sure. Carrie, meanwhile, is also affected by this and hears Sarah/Judy's call. Here Laura awakens "100%" inside Carrie, now with her memories of the horrors she suffered in her previous life - all of which, save for her final murder, still occurred. She screams and, recognizing this, the Palmer house - controlled by Judy and the Black Lodge - shuts off. We're left with the final mystery of just what Dead-Laura whispered to Coop.

tl;dr: Cooper created a new timeline, but everything that happened happened. The past, however, dictates the future and Cooper exists now separate from himself (two Coopers) in the "future" of Season 3. This is definitely left open for a Season 4, where Cooper/Laura must confront Judy.

Cartridgeblowers fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Sep 4, 2017

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:52

NObodyNOWHERE: Apr 24, 2007; Now we are all sons of bitches.; Hell Gem

kaworu posted:

I think there will be a season 4. I just don't think Lynch would have ended it quite that way otherwise.

Also, I'm still trying to figure where the footage of what really looked like Old Cooper leading FWWM-Laura through the woods. Is that... just CGI and trickery with doubles? Obviously the footage with James was new and nor even used in Missing Pieces or the original FWWM to my recollection... Right?

The scene with James was straight out of FWWM, just with Cooper added in the background. The scenes with Cooper and young Laura in the woods together are computer effects. There's been a lot of that in movies over the last several years. I think one of the newer Terminator movies had them de-aging Arnold using the same technique.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:52

romanowski: Nov 10, 2012

kaworu posted:

I think there will be a season 4. I just don't think Lynch would have ended it quite that way otherwise.

Also, I'm still trying to figure where the footage of what really looked like Old Cooper leading FWWM-Laura through the woods. Is that... just CGI and trickery with doubles? Obviously the footage with James was new and nor even used in Missing Pieces or the original FWWM to my recollection... Right?

i thought the laura in that scene might have been a look alike because it seemed like her voice was dubbed and she was heavily obscured by shadows. the james footage was at least mostly from FWWM but there were definitely parts of it that I didn't specifically remember but I've never seen all of the missing pieces so idk

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:52

Rageaholic: May 31, 2005; Old Town Road to EGOT

Kurtofan posted:

So she's Laura's daughter?

Nah. Laura no longer exists. Cooper succeeded in sparing Laura from pain and suffering in Twin Peaks by tossing her into the Odessa dimension and making her into a different person with a different life (Carrie Page). But Carrie still has echoes of her former self, even if she can't remember life as Laura.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:54

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

The James bits were definitely from FWWM or Missing Pieces or something, I'd seen them before. I even turned to my girlfriend and said "I wonder if they will do the I LOVE YOU JAMES!!!!! bit".

Also, my initial reading on the ending is that this plot with non-Laura in Texas and Cooper's efforts to save her was the secret that Laura was telling Cooper in the waiting room. Even if everything changes, Laura is still hosed and can't be saved. That's why after the end it reverts to that shot, Cooper's realizing that his plan necessarily will come to nothing.

I am glad he managed to give Pete Martell a chance at a nice day of fishing though.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:55

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

there's a fish in the percolator

# ? Sep 4, 2017 17:58

kaworu: Jul 23, 2004

Cromulent posted:

I dunno, I remember that like 95% of people here "got" episode 8. It was arguably the most abstract thing in Twin Peaks history, yet everyone here was pretty much reading it loud and clear, despite the lack of dialogue. Seems like an apples and oranges thing to apply that to episode 18.

Episode 8 was deceptively both literal and stuck to some fairly straightforward genre conventions and pacing at times, though.

What really depresses me and what I really, really do not want to think is true (but probably is) is that a lot of people did not like Episode 18 simply because they found it boring. Too many shots of driving, or the plot moving slowly and "doing nothing" with time that, one might think, Lynch could have used to explain what the gently caress was going on with Audrey and Charlie, or with Sarah, or with who the Jumping Man was, or whatever. And instead of that, they got lots of Dale and Diane traveling and then lots of Dale and Laura traveling and so on.

But... I really don't perceive conventionally "boring" films as boring... I've always loved Fellini and Jarmusch and the whole mumblecore indie movement and French New Wave, and when you've gotten used to watching film that is not designed to be entertaining or exciting in any way remotely conventional way, I think you have a lot more tolerance and understanding of such storytelling.

And I'm not saying this like "I have better taste and am smarter because I find art in long shots of people driving at night", I just... do. One of my favorite films of all time is called "Night on Earth" and consists of nothing but people sitting in cars and talking and driving (and smoking), but it's absolutely fantastic and has me in turns fascinated, shocked, excited, laughing, crying, wistful, heartbroken....

It has nothing to do with answers and I didn't want or expect answers. It just is what it is, and you either like it or you don't. I just wish more people... weren't quite so easily bored, I guess?

kaworu fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Sep 4, 2017

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:02

romanowski: Nov 10, 2012

Little Mac posted:

Theory and analysis, long and meandering so feel free to skip:

In Part 2, the Arm-tree discusses the number 253 with Cooper, along with the phrase "time and time again." In Sheriff Truman's office, time begins to get wonky and the clock moves back and forth. Time is stuck at exactly 2:53. This is where the Arm is going to call Cooper back for the next phase of their plan: to save Laura Palmer, because to quote the Log Lady in both Season 3 and the Bravo introduction to the pilot: "Laura is the One." What this means is ambiguous, but she seems to be the antithesis to Judy.

From there the Lodge pulls away those with knowledge of just what the hell is going on: Coop and Diane who had been trapped living inside the White Lodge as Naido, and Cooper calls for Gordon at the last moment taking him, too. For those in the Sheriff station, time is frozen at 2:53. Cooper is taken to yet another back entrance to the Lodges - the Great Northern basement - and uses his own room key to open it (obviously this makes no sense - perhaps the key was attuned to the Lodges since he took it with him inside? Lodge logic is illogical). From there things are pretty plain: the plan of Cooper and Mike is to time-travel via Jeffries, the only human who has time-travelled in the series thus far, using the non-linearity of the Lodges, and save Laura Palmer from her fate.

Cooper succeeds in saving Laura's life. When she is whisked away at the end of Part 17, she is taken by the White Lodge (which is obviously the "home" where the Cooper in the FWWM timeline is taking her to, not the Palmer household) to a new, safer life - as Carrie Page in Odessa, TX. Her memories are perhaps Dougie'd and she lives her new life there.

Twin Peaks the Series is not entirely undone. There is still a Missing Persons case for Cooper to investigate in the town. BOB is still there for them to battle. Coop would still follow Annie into Glastonbury Grove. Nothing major is undone except Laura's murder. We can assume FWWM ends with Leland going to the Cabin, finding only Ronette, and becoming increasingly hostile. It's possible he even kills Ronette there, but the disappearance of the troubled prom queen is just as likely to set off the town just as much as her murder.

From Laura's disappearance Coop is pulled into his own past, but things in the Red Room are different. The Arm-tree echoes Audrey's lines in her dreamreality ("Is it the story of the little girl who lived down the lane? Is it?"), hinting that Audrey might have been deposited there - perhaps the nurse who took Annie's owl ring transferred it to Audrey somehow? Coop's reaction to Dead-Laura's whispering is different, too: In episode 2 it was a pained grunt but now it's a "huh" of confusion. The Red Room Cooper we see in Part 18 is learning all of this for the first time, but now knows what he has to do. This is solidified by Leland's urging him to "find Laura," which is the key to everything. Note: This is not the Doppelganger Leland but the real one without BOB corruption - Doppelgangers have grey eyes in the Lodge, as seen in the Season 2 finale and with DoppelCoop in the beginning of Part 18.

Part 2's version of all of this is different. After meeting with the Arm-Tree Cooper emerges into a Red Room hallway with some weird shifting effects. He then heads for a curtain but is blocked and has to turn back. In Part 2 Cooper finds Leland as well but enters FROM THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROOM. Instead of being blocked he uses whatever Lodge power/knowledge he has and opens the entrance to Glastonbury, the same way he came in. There Diane is waiting for him, but it is 25 years later in the Laura-dead timeline. Cooper has to awaken Laura, but she's not alive here.

Here Cooper and Diane retain the knowledge, despite the fact that they're now probably somewhere around Part 1 of Season 3 time-wise, hence why they question their identities (having been replaced by Doppelgangers and Tulpas respectively). Thanks to Cooper's intuitive understanding of the Fireman's cryptic clues, he knows how to get to the reality where he saved Laura - driving to the point where he and Diane cross realities, though there is danger they may lose themselves. Cooper can feel the electricity there and even sees another symbol of Judy - the electric tower. He looks at his watch (is it 2:53?) and steadies himself. I'm not sure exactly where they are geographically at this point - 430 miles away from Twin Peaks, it would seem. They drive through the gate and come out in darkness, changed.

Their new selves are Richard and Linda, new lives not unlike Dougie for Coop before. They are both in danger here of losing their true personalities in this world where Laura survived. They pull up to a motel (the same one where Jeffries stays?) and Diane sees her true self reaching out. The true Diane disappears. They sleep together in the hotel room, Cooper obviously different as well. During their lovemaking, Diane covers Cooper's face as she is subsumed by her new self - she no longer recognizes Richard, because he's still mostly Cooper. Horrified, Linda leaves in the middle of the night.

Cooper awakens, confused, but recalls the Fireman's message vaguely when he reads the note. He emerges from the room into a different parking lot, now in Odessa, and in fact with a different car (Richard's?), though he pauses - he's a bit confused by the situation, but resigns himself to the mission: Find Laura.

He wanders to Judy's, assuming he's been put in the right place and right time just like the Fireman put DoppelCoop in the right place and right time to get taken out by Lucy and Freddie. Coop expects to find Laura here but does not and goes on a hunch that Alive-Laura is still connected to Judy's. His temperament is changed by becoming Richard - he is more harsh, but still has an unchecked sense of what is good. Dale Cooper is a cowboy hero and he saves a random waitress on the way to finding Laura.

At Alive-Laura's house he sees the pole and hears electricity, a sign that he's on the right track. Here he meets Carrie Page, the Dougie Jones to her Laura Palmer - notable, however, is that Kyle MacLachlan is never credited as Dougie Jones, but Sheryl Lee receives a credit for both Laura AND Carrie. At the front door Carrie has no knowledge of Laura but does seem to bristle at the mention of Sarah Palmer (most certainly Judy/the Jumping Man and I would also assume most certainly the girl who ate the Frogroach). Coop wants to bring Laura to Sarah for unexplained reasons - possibly to destroy Judy.

In Carrie's house, Coop finds a few odd things: a corpse with what looks to be a BOB orb emerging from its stomach, a white horse in front of a blue plate, and white paint next to an assault rifle. It would appear that Carrie is still being attacked by agents of Judy even in this reality, though she can kill them. She is attempting to hide her self-defense murder by painting over the scene of the crime, though it's been awhile as the corpse is attracting flies. The horse is decor, but looks like a pupil: the horse is the white of the eyes.

Carrie and Cooper travel to Twin Peaks where Carrie falls asleep and Laura peeks through ("In those days I was too young to know any better"). They arrive at their destination but are met by Lodge Spirits (now Tremond, before Chalfont) at the door to the Palmer Household. It's unclear whether Cooper knows the Chalfont/Tremond/lodge connection, but he definitely recalls the name Chalfont from Carl Rodd's explanation of the trailer in FWWM. The fact that Alice Tremond and her husband seem to be awake when it's obviously early morning (the RR Diner is closed) should be hint that they're a front.

Dejectedly Cooper leaves with Carrie, but he reconsiders. He hears a bit of radio static, stumbles a bit, and asks "What year is this?" It's the "future", not the "past," though Cooper isn't so sure. Carrie, meanwhile, is also affected by this and hears Sarah/Judy's call. Here Laura awakens "100%" inside Carrie, now with her memories of the horrors she suffered in her previous life - all of which, save for her final murder, still occurred. She screams and, recognizing this, the Palmer house - controlled by Judy and the Black Lodge - shuts off. We're left with the final mystery of just what Dead-Laura whispered to Coop.

tl;dr: Cooper created a new timeline, but everything that happened happened. The past, however, dictates the future and Cooper exists now separate from himself (two Coopers) in the "future" of Season 3. This is definitely left open for a Season 4, where Cooper/Laura must confront Judy.

this is extremely good

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:03

R.L. Stine: Oct 19, 2007; welcome to dead gay dog house

交代
jiāo dài

to hand over
to explain
to make clear
to brief (sb)
to account for
to justify oneself
to confess
to finish (colloquial)

We're not gonna talk about Judy at all

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:07

Rageaholic: May 31, 2005; Old Town Road to EGOT

Showtime's web player is kinda garbage. For some reason when I went to watch episode 2, it resumed a few minutes from the end, so I tried to scrub it back to the beginning and it refuses to go back.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:08

kaworu: Jul 23, 2004

Little Mac posted:

Theory and analysis, long and meandering so feel free to skip:

In Part 2, the Arm-tree discusses the number 253 with Cooper, along with the phrase "time and time again." In Sheriff Truman's office, time begins to get wonky and the clock moves back and forth. Time is stuck at exactly 2:53. This is where the Arm is going to call Cooper back for the next phase of their plan: to save Laura Palmer, because to quote the Log Lady in both Season 3 and the Bravo introduction to the pilot: "Laura is the One." What this means is ambiguous, but she seems to be the antithesis to Judy.

From there the Lodge pulls away those with knowledge of just what the hell is going on: Coop and Diane who had been trapped living inside the White Lodge as Naido, and Cooper calls for Gordon at the last moment taking him, too. For those in the Sheriff station, time is frozen at 2:53. Cooper is taken to yet another back entrance to the Lodges - the Great Northern basement - and uses his own room key to open it (obviously this makes no sense - perhaps the key was attuned to the Lodges since he took it with him inside? Lodge logic is illogical). From there things are pretty plain: the plan of Cooper and Mike is to time-travel via Jeffries, the only human who has time-travelled in the series thus far, using the non-linearity of the Lodges, and save Laura Palmer from her fate.

Cooper succeeds in saving Laura's life. When she is whisked away at the end of Part 17, she is taken by the White Lodge (which is obviously the "home" where the Cooper in the FWWM timeline is taking her to, not the Palmer household) to a new, safer life - as Carrie Page in Odessa, TX. The White Lodge entrance is at Jack Rabbit's Palace and Odessa, TX is home to the world's largest jackrabbit. Laura's memories are perhaps Dougie'd and she lives her new life there.

Twin Peaks the Series is not entirely undone. There is still a Missing Persons case for Cooper to investigate in the town. BOB is still there for them to battle. Coop would still follow Annie into Glastonbury Grove. Nothing major is undone except Laura's murder. We can assume FWWM ends with Leland going to the Cabin, finding only Ronette, and becoming increasingly hostile. It's possible he even kills Ronette there, but the disappearance of the troubled prom queen is just as likely to set off the town just as much as her murder.

From Laura's disappearance Coop is pulled into his own past, but things in the Red Room are different. The Arm-tree echoes Audrey's lines in her dreamreality ("Is it the story of the little girl who lived down the lane? Is it?"), hinting that Audrey might have been deposited there - perhaps the nurse who took Annie's owl ring transferred it to Audrey somehow? Coop's reaction to Dead-Laura's whispering is different, too: In episode 2 it was a pained grunt but now it's a "huh" of confusion. The Red Room Cooper we see in Part 18 is learning all of this for the first time, but now knows what he has to do. This is solidified by Leland's urging him to "find Laura," which is the key to everything. Note: This is not the Doppelganger Leland but the real one without BOB corruption - Doppelgangers have grey eyes in the Lodge, as seen in the Season 2 finale and with DoppelCoop in the beginning of Part 18.

Part 2's version of all of this is different. After meeting with the Arm-Tree Cooper emerges into a Red Room hallway with some weird shifting effects. He then heads for a curtain but is blocked and has to turn back. In Part 2 Cooper finds Leland as well but enters FROM THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROOM. Instead of being blocked he uses whatever Lodge power/knowledge he has and opens the entrance to Glastonbury, the same way he came in. There Diane is waiting for him, but it is 25 years later in the Laura-dead timeline. Cooper has to awaken Laura, but she's not alive here.

Here Cooper and Diane retain the knowledge, despite the fact that they're now probably somewhere around Part 1 of Season 3 time-wise, hence why they question their identities (having been replaced by Doppelgangers and Tulpas respectively). Thanks to Cooper's intuitive understanding of the Fireman's cryptic clues, he knows how to get to the reality where he saved Laura - driving to the point where he and Diane cross realities, though there is danger they may lose themselves. Cooper can feel the electricity there and even sees another symbol of Judy - the electric tower. He looks at his watch (is it 2:53?) and steadies himself. I'm not sure exactly where they are geographically at this point - 430 miles away from Twin Peaks, it would seem. They drive through the gate and come out in darkness, changed.

Their new selves are Richard and Linda, new lives not unlike Dougie for Coop before. They are both in danger here of losing their true personalities in this world where Laura survived. They pull up to a motel (the same one where Jeffries stays?) and Diane sees her true self reaching out. The true Diane disappears. They sleep together in the hotel room, Cooper obviously different as well. During their lovemaking, Diane covers Cooper's face as she is subsumed by her new self - she no longer recognizes Richard, because he's still mostly Cooper. Horrified, Linda leaves in the middle of the night.

Cooper awakens, confused, but recalls the Fireman's message vaguely when he reads the note. He emerges from the room into a different parking lot, now in Odessa, and in fact with a different car (Richard's?), though he pauses - he's a bit confused by the situation, but resigns himself to the mission: Find Laura.

He wanders to Judy's, assuming he's been put in the right place and right time just like the Fireman put DoppelCoop in the right place and right time to get taken out by Lucy and Freddie. Coop expects to find Laura here but does not and goes on a hunch that Alive-Laura is still connected to Judy's. His temperament is changed by becoming Richard - he is more harsh, but still has an unchecked sense of what is good. Dale Cooper is a cowboy hero and he saves a random waitress on the way to finding Laura.

At Alive-Laura's house he sees the pole and hears electricity, a sign that he's on the right track. Here he meets Carrie Page, the Dougie Jones to her Laura Palmer - notable, however, is that Kyle MacLachlan is never credited as Dougie Jones, but Sheryl Lee receives a credit for both Laura AND Carrie. At the front door Carrie has no knowledge of Laura but does seem to bristle at the mention of Sarah Palmer (most certainly Judy/the Jumping Man and I would also assume most certainly the girl who ate the Frogroach). Coop wants to bring Laura to Sarah for unexplained reasons - possibly to destroy Judy.

In Carrie's house, Coop finds a few odd things: a corpse with what looks to be a BOB orb emerging from its stomach, a white horse in front of a blue plate, and white paint next to an assault rifle. It would appear that Carrie is still being attacked by agents of Judy even in this reality, though she can kill them. She is attempting to hide her self-defense murder by painting over the scene of the crime, though it's been awhile as the corpse is attracting flies. The horse is decor, but looks like a pupil: the horse is the white of the eyes.

Carrie and Cooper travel to Twin Peaks where Carrie falls asleep and Laura peeks through ("In those days I was too young to know any better"). They arrive at their destination but are met by Lodge Spirits (now Tremond, before Chalfont) at the door to the Palmer Household. It's unclear whether Cooper knows the Chalfont/Tremond/lodge connection, but he definitely recalls the name Chalfont from Carl Rodd's explanation of the trailer in FWWM. The fact that Alice Tremond and her husband seem to be awake when it's obviously early morning (the RR Diner is closed) should be hint that they're a front.

Dejectedly Cooper leaves with Carrie, but he reconsiders. He hears a bit of radio static, stumbles a bit, and asks "What year is this?" It's the "future", not the "past," though Cooper isn't so sure. Carrie, meanwhile, is also affected by this and hears Sarah/Judy's call. Here Laura awakens "100%" inside Carrie, now with her memories of the horrors she suffered in her previous life - all of which, save for her final murder, still occurred. She screams and, recognizing this, the Palmer house - controlled by Judy and the Black Lodge - shuts off. We're left with the final mystery of just what Dead-Laura whispered to Coop.

tl;dr: Cooper created a new timeline, but everything that happened happened. The past, however, dictates the future and Cooper exists now separate from himself (two Coopers) in the "future" of Season 3. This is definitely left open for a Season 4, where Cooper/Laura must confront Judy.

Quoting this again because it's a GREAT GREAT post and I agree almost 100% with everything you have written here.

:bravo:

goon

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:10

Your Parents: Jul 19, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Vikar Jerome posted:

you have 18 hours of enough information to form your own ideas on what it all means and you might be missing the point if you are expecting anything concrete from someone who named a character judy, jow-dae and labeled her the main being of extreme negative force in this series or rather jiāo d�i, the chinese meaning for "to explain" and "to make clear" by a man renown for letting the art do its talking and him never explaining anything when asked after the fact, whose work largely consists of this exact thing.

you know what's really funny, is that jiao dai also means "recording tape."

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:12

Vikar Jerome: Nov 26, 2013; I believe Emmanuelle is shit, though Emmanuelle 2, Emmanuelle '77 and Goodbye, Emmanuelle may be very good movies.

Little Mac posted:

Theory and analysis, long and meandering so feel free to skip:

In Part 2, the Arm-tree discusses the number 253 with Cooper, along with the phrase "time and time again." In Sheriff Truman's office, time begins to get wonky and the clock moves back and forth. Time is stuck at exactly 2:53. This is where the Arm is going to call Cooper back for the next phase of their plan: to save Laura Palmer, because to quote the Log Lady in both Season 3 and the Bravo introduction to the pilot: "Laura is the One." What this means is ambiguous, but she seems to be the antithesis to Judy.

From there the Lodge pulls away those with knowledge of just what the hell is going on: Coop and Diane who had been trapped living inside the White Lodge as Naido, and Cooper calls for Gordon at the last moment taking him, too. For those in the Sheriff station, time is frozen at 2:53. Cooper is taken to yet another back entrance to the Lodges - the Great Northern basement - and uses his own room key to open it (obviously this makes no sense - perhaps the key was attuned to the Lodges since he took it with him inside? Lodge logic is illogical). From there things are pretty plain: the plan of Cooper and Mike is to time-travel via Jeffries, the only human who has time-travelled in the series thus far, using the non-linearity of the Lodges, and save Laura Palmer from her fate.

Cooper succeeds in saving Laura's life. When she is whisked away at the end of Part 17, she is taken by the White Lodge (which is obviously the "home" where the Cooper in the FWWM timeline is taking her to, not the Palmer household) to a new, safer life - as Carrie Page in Odessa, TX. The White Lodge entrance is at Jack Rabbit's Palace and Odessa, TX is home to the world's largest jackrabbit. Laura's memories are perhaps Dougie'd and she lives her new life there.

Twin Peaks the Series is not entirely undone. There is still a Missing Persons case for Cooper to investigate in the town. BOB is still there for them to battle. Coop would still follow Annie into Glastonbury Grove. Nothing major is undone except Laura's murder. We can assume FWWM ends with Leland going to the Cabin, finding only Ronette, and becoming increasingly hostile. It's possible he even kills Ronette there, but the disappearance of the troubled prom queen is just as likely to set off the town just as much as her murder.

From Laura's disappearance Coop is pulled into his own past, but things in the Red Room are different. The Arm-tree echoes Audrey's lines in her dreamreality ("Is it the story of the little girl who lived down the lane? Is it?"), hinting that Audrey might have been deposited there - perhaps the nurse who took Annie's owl ring transferred it to Audrey somehow? Coop's reaction to Dead-Laura's whispering is different, too: In episode 2 it was a pained grunt but now it's a "huh" of confusion. The Red Room Cooper we see in Part 18 is learning all of this for the first time, but now knows what he has to do. This is solidified by Leland's urging him to "find Laura," which is the key to everything. Note: This is not the Doppelganger Leland but the real one without BOB corruption - Doppelgangers have grey eyes in the Lodge, as seen in the Season 2 finale and with DoppelCoop in the beginning of Part 18.

Part 2's version of all of this is different. After meeting with the Arm-Tree Cooper emerges into a Red Room hallway with some weird shifting effects. He then heads for a curtain but is blocked and has to turn back. In Part 2 Cooper finds Leland as well but enters FROM THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROOM. In Part 18, instead of being blocked he uses whatever Lodge power/knowledge he has and opens the entrance to Glastonbury, the same way he came in. There Diane is waiting for him, but it is 25 years later in the Laura-dead timeline. Cooper has to awaken Laura, but she's not alive here.

Here Cooper and Diane retain the knowledge, despite the fact that they're now probably somewhere around Part 1 of Season 3 time-wise, hence why they question their identities (having been replaced by Doppelgangers and Tulpas respectively). Thanks to Cooper's intuitive understanding of the Fireman's cryptic clues, he knows how to get to the reality where he saved Laura - driving to the point where he and Diane cross realities, though there is danger they may lose themselves. Cooper can feel the electricity there and even sees another symbol of Judy - the electric tower. He looks at his watch (is it 2:53?) and steadies himself. I'm not sure exactly where they are geographically at this point - 430 miles away from Twin Peaks, it would seem. They drive through the gate and come out in darkness, changed.

Their new selves are Richard and Linda, new lives not unlike Dougie for Coop before. They are both in danger here of losing their true personalities in this world where Laura survived. They pull up to a motel (the same one where Jeffries stays?) and Diane sees her true self reaching out. The true Diane disappears. They sleep together in the hotel room, Cooper obviously different as well. During their lovemaking, Diane covers Cooper's face as she is subsumed by her new self - she no longer recognizes Richard, because he's still mostly Cooper. Horrified, Linda leaves in the middle of the night.

Cooper awakens, confused, but recalls the Fireman's message vaguely when he reads the note. He emerges from the room into a different parking lot, now in Odessa, and in fact with a different car (Richard's?), though he pauses - he's a bit confused by the situation, but resigns himself to the mission: Find Laura.

He wanders to Judy's, assuming he's been put in the right place and right time just like the Fireman put DoppelCoop in the right place and right time to get taken out by Lucy and Freddie. Coop expects to find Laura here but does not and goes on a hunch that Alive-Laura is still connected to Judy's. His temperament is changed by becoming Richard - he is more harsh, but still has an unchecked sense of what is good. Dale Cooper is a cowboy hero and he saves a random waitress on the way to finding Laura.

At Alive-Laura's house he sees the pole and hears electricity, a sign that he's on the right track. Here he meets Carrie Page, the Dougie Jones to her Laura Palmer - notable, however, is that Kyle MacLachlan is never credited as Dougie Jones, but Sheryl Lee receives a credit for both Laura AND Carrie. At the front door Carrie has no knowledge of Laura but does seem to bristle at the mention of Sarah Palmer (most certainly Judy/the Jumping Man and I would also assume most certainly the girl who ate the Frogroach). Coop wants to bring Laura to Sarah for unexplained reasons - possibly to destroy Judy.

In Carrie's house, Coop finds a few odd things: a corpse with what looks to be a BOB orb emerging from its stomach, a white horse in front of a blue plate, and white paint next to an assault rifle. It would appear that Carrie is still being attacked by agents of Judy even in this reality, though she can kill them. She is attempting to hide her self-defense murder by painting over the scene of the crime, though it's been awhile as the corpse is attracting flies. The horse is decor, but looks like a pupil: the horse is the white of the eyes.

Carrie and Cooper travel to Twin Peaks where Carrie falls asleep and Laura peeks through ("In those days I was too young to know any better"). They arrive at their destination but are met by Lodge Spirits (now Tremond, before Chalfont) at the door to the Palmer Household. It's unclear whether Cooper knows the Chalfont/Tremond/lodge connection, but he definitely recalls the name Chalfont from Carl Rodd's explanation of the trailer in FWWM. The fact that Alice Tremond and her husband seem to be awake when it's obviously early morning (the RR Diner is closed) should be hint that they're a front.

Dejectedly Cooper leaves with Carrie, but he reconsiders. He hears a bit of radio static, stumbles a bit, and asks "What year is this?" It's the "future", not the "past," though Cooper isn't so sure. Carrie, meanwhile, is also affected by this and hears Sarah/Judy's call. Here Laura awakens "100%" inside Carrie, now with her memories of the horrors she suffered in her previous life - all of which, save for her final murder, still occurred. She screams and, recognizing this, the Palmer house - controlled by Judy and the Black Lodge - shuts off. We're left with the final mystery of just what Dead-Laura whispered to Coop.

tl;dr: Cooper created a new timeline, but everything that happened happened. The past, however, dictates the future and Cooper exists now separate from himself (two Coopers) in the "future" of Season 3. This is definitely left open for a Season 4, where Cooper/Laura must confront Judy.

beautiful.

i wonder if the laura screaming at the end echos back to the part 1/2 laura and the part 17/18 laura vanishing like that, as if they are converging all on carrie as she wakes up

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:14

And More: Jun 19, 2013; How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?

Little Mac posted:

Cooper succeeds in saving Laura's life. When she is whisked away at the end of Part 17, she is taken by the White Lodge (which is obviously the "home" where the Cooper in the FWWM timeline is taking her to, not the Palmer household) to a new, safer life - as Carrie Page in Odessa, TX.

Most of your explanation checks out, imo, but this part really goes against what we see and hear. Cooper tries to take Laura to the White Lodge, but before he reaches it, Laura disappears, and we hear her gut-wrenching scream. Something goes wrong, but it's not entirely clear what happened. She sure as hell didn't go where she was supposed to.

Also note that Laura's corpse disappears from the beach the moment she touches Cooper. It has nothing to do with her being safe or even alive.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:25

kaworu: Jul 23, 2004

In a way, was FWWM Cooper's first attempt at saving Laura? He tells her, "Don't take the ring!" and it is taking the ring and putting it on that compels Leland to kill her. But that definitely Cooper trying to save Laura by using the lodge(s) to move outside time, and it did not succeed. Unless it always went down that exact way the first time and every time, with Laura dreaming of Cooper.

Also, there is still a missing page from her diary, I seem to recall :confused:

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:30

Cartridgeblowers: Jan 3, 2006; Super Mario Bros 3

And More posted:

Most of your explanation checks out, imo, but this part really goes against what we see and hear. Cooper tries to take Laura to the White Lodge, but before he reaches it, Laura disappears, and we hear her gut-wrenching scream. Something goes wrong, but it's not entirely clear what happened. She sure as hell didn't go where she was supposed to.

Also note that Laura's corpse disappears from the beach the moment she touches Cooper. It has nothing to do with her being safe or even alive.

Lodge-Laura also screams when she is teleported away. I'm not entirely sure the scream is indicative of the Black Lodge being responsible for that, though it's possible. It may just be Teen Laura screaming because being turned into Carrie Page isn't an altogether painless experience. Not sure.

It's the best I've got! �\_(ツ)_/�

I think Laura's corpse disappears because Cooper pulling her away from the meeting with Leo saves her pretty much instantly, but meeting with them to party is sealing her doom.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:32

General Dog: Apr 26, 2008; Everybody's working for the weekend

Sheryl Lee is still the best screamer alive.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:35

Grizzled Patriarch: Mar 27, 2014; These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.

kaworu posted:

Also, there is still a missing page from her diary, I seem to recall

Carrie "Page"

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:37

Rageaholic: May 31, 2005; Old Town Road to EGOT

So "Are you Laura Palmer?" "I feel like I know her, but sometimes my arms bend back." refers to Sheryl Lee being lost in spacetime right?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:37

SUNKOS: Jun 4, 2016

I think Cooper's found himself in the same place Jeffries was when he reappeared in FWWM, having no idea who's really who or what the date is. He's become unstuck just like Jeffries did.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:40

Cartridgeblowers: Jan 3, 2006; Super Mario Bros 3

Grizzled Patriarch posted:

Carrie "Page"

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:43

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Grizzled Patriarch posted:

Carrie "Page"

Oh poo poo

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:44

Zmej: Nov 6, 2005

the last two episodes felt like Lynch directed an episode of star trek next gen that involved a time loop/paradox.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:45

Mover: Jun 30, 2008

Don't be ridiculous, her new name is confirmation of a Daredevil crossover

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:45

Dr. Fishopolis: Aug 31, 2004; ROBOT

Rageaholic Monkey posted:

So "Are you Laura Palmer?" "I feel like I know her, but sometimes my arms bend back." refers to Sheryl Lee being lost in spacetime right?

Sort of. She was hogtied when she was killed by BOB. I always read it as her lodge spirit / doppelganger remembering her counterpart's murder.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:46

Mover: Jun 30, 2008

Anyway, this finale was really the "Mortal Kombat 9" of prestige television--Lynch loves to wear his influences on his sleeve.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:46

HD DAD: Jan 13, 2010; Generic white guy.; Toilet Rascal

Zmej posted:

the last two episodes felt like Lynch directed an episode of star trek next gen that involved a time loop/paradox.

Coop finds out he didn't actually win the Bat'leth tournament on Forcas III.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:46

Rageaholic: May 31, 2005; Old Town Road to EGOT

loving hell, Kyle MacLachlan really knocked it out of the park this season playing multiple characters, and not only did he make them feel distinct, he sold each one to the extreme degree of their respective purposes.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 18:47