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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Gordon reveals he's been keeping secrets from Albert in 17, but Albert also reveals that he was keeping secrets from Gordon in episode 4. And the shrinking box in Argentina for that matter. Wonder what that was.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:28
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"What year is this?" is gonna haunt me
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Sep 4, 2017 23:29
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Tolkien minority posted:it was really bad lol I dunno man, I loved it. I'm not gonna knock anyone who didn't / act like they didn't "get it" or anything, but it was all part of why I liked the episode. The pacing and the tone and dialogue, etc. all felt so off compared to the last episode that it effectively conveyed the idea that they were in a different reality, and I thought it was a really unsettling effect. Most movies / shows with parallel universes are super lazy about it any just rely on wowing the audience with some fantastical setting or a different chain of events in an an otherwise similar world, this one actually legitimately felt like they'd "crossed over" somewhere. The entire episode was just really tense and full of dread. All the stuff with Diane and not-Laura was super creepy and sad.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:30
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18 ruled because 17 wrapped up so much and then the following hour just distorted everything and disoriented the viewer. 17 is like you telling your kid you're going to get ice cream and going to the ice cream shop, then 18 is walking inside and melting all the ice cream and killing the cashier.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:33
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:I dunno man, I loved it. I'm not gonna knock anyone who didn't / act like they didn't "get it" or anything, but it was all part of why I liked the episode. The pacing and the tone and dialogue, etc. all felt so off compared to the last episode that it effectively conveyed the idea that they were in a different reality, and I thought it was a really unsettling effect. Most movies / shows with parallel universes are super lazy about it any just rely on wowing the audience with some fantastical setting or a different chain of events in an an otherwise similar world, this one actually legitimately felt like they'd "crossed over" somewhere. The entire episode was just really tense and full of dread. All the stuff with Diane and not-Laura was super creepy and sad. I mean I'm not going to say that how it made you feel is invalid, but for my personally the last 40~ minutes of the episode were just incredibly boring. Not even talking about what I hoped it would be or what It did or did not address but I did not personally get anything out of it besides a big "oh, thats it?". different strokes for different folks I guess!
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Sep 4, 2017 23:33
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Escobarbarian posted:While I loving love this show I admit I'd love to see some of the bigger apologists try and give excuses for the ridiculous exposition dumps, especially the one from 17 that literally reveals a secret plot between Briggs/Gordo/Coop during season 2 that we never knew about. I didn't mind them because exposition dumps from Lynch's own character was hilarious to me.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:33
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I don't think there was any music or sound scape stuff once Coop crossed over into the "real world" 
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Sep 4, 2017 23:39
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 This scene rules because it parallels the scene from Mulholland Drive where Betty exits the airport and sets out into LA and everything's bright and sunny before her dream collapses and everything goes to poo poo. Becky is all bright and sunny and carefree here, then Steven beats her, cheats on her with Donna's sister, most likely kills her, then kills himself.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:39
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I was looking for the music from when the woodsmen run in to revive bad cooper each time only to find out its a slowed down version of moonlight sonata. Neat!! I found that music so eerie and unnerving.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:42
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Quantum of Phallus posted:I don't think there was any music or sound scape stuff once Coop crossed over into the "real world"
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Sep 4, 2017 23:44
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I wonder if any TV revival will ever be as good as this was
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Sep 4, 2017 23:46
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I don't think it's at all fair to say "Lynch did these things that didn't work for me" and then compare his methods to those of others like they're the standard that all media should adhere to when Lynch works nothing like that a lot of the time. I don't really agree with this. First, I don't know why you think Lynch's methods 'aren't for me'. I've enjoyed the movies of him I've seen (Mulholland Drive, Blue Velvet, Wild at Heart, Fire Walk With Me), and I enjoyed the majority of the revival. It's one of the better things I've seen in a long time. But there's things that I think worked, and things that I think didn't. Honestly, this sounds really childish. If we were talking about conventional filmmaking, no one would be afraid to say "I don't think this worked". A lot of these discussions sound like people don't want to evaluate the work down to specifics, they just want to say they 'get it' or 'don't get it', like there is something cool about liking David Lynch, a world-famous award winning director who's been around forever and whose bag of tricks is quite well-known by now. Second, because like I already said, David Lynch is not actually that unconventional. He is not some abstract filmmaker working in a language completely different to anyone else's. Most of the revival is either fairly conventional, or playing with/subverting with conventional forms; it is not a stretch at all to compare it to other narrative work, let alone compare it to itself and to other Lynch works. Third, while there's always subjectivity issues, and we can talk about whether you 'get someone's methods', there are some things that, if not universal, at least come close to approaching it. And lenght is there. This thing has been described as an 18-hour-movie. That's interesting, for the obvious reason that, generally speaking, there aren't 18-hour-movies. Even what we consider a 'long movie' is much shorter than that. The lenght of a work and its effect on pacing is a real issue, and regardless of how unconventional or conventional you are, you're going to hit some psychological/biological limits there in terms of attention span, in terms of people's ability to process certain amounts of information, etc. The Return is an extremely long, single-story, non-episodic season of television that does some structurally unconventional things (like having a strangely episodic part 8, taking long breaks in between character appearances, delaying character entrances, etc.). There is a reason why convention is convention: because it works well. I realize that it may sound like I have just been saying "breaking convention = bad". It's not what I mean. There are breaks in convention that work well. But there are also time when these breaks just make you realize why the convention is good in the first place.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:47
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Escobarbarian posted:I wonder if any TV revival will ever be as good as this was
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Sep 4, 2017 23:47
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Escobarbarian posted:I wonder if any TV revival will ever be as good as this was Only a Seinfeld revival could possibly be as good. what if george had ipad
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Sep 4, 2017 23:50
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https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comments/6y0b62/s3e18_bill_hastings_site_holds_the_key/ I like this theory I just saw on the reddit page. Basically says Cooper is now in the position Phillip Jeffries found himself in. And how he asked what year it was just like Jeffries did in his appearance in Philly. My pessimism made me afraid the Richard's dream stuff was right but now I'm hoping this is more the case. And that leaves things open for a followup. Hope we get it! Still wish the storytelling leading up to e18 had been way better than it was so it could have impacted me when watching.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:51
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I don't see how you could claim to be a fan of Fire Walk With Me and Mulholland Drive and know how Lynch operates and appreciate it and not be a fan of this, but alright.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:52
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I don't see how you could claim to be a fan of Fire Walk With Me and Mulholland Drive and know how Lynch operates and not be a fan of this, but alright. some of the stuff lynch did in the new season worked well, some of it did not. saying youre "not a true fan!!!" if you didnt like some things is infantile. even if you personally loved every single second and think its absolutely perfect it shouldnt be difficult to see why perhaps some do not share that exact same view while still being a fan
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Sep 4, 2017 23:53
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I don't really agree with this. You have to like it tho
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Sep 4, 2017 23:55
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Kawalimus posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comments/6y0b62/s3e18_bill_hastings_site_holds_the_key/ Tolkien minority posted:some of the stuff lynch did in the new season worked well, some of it did not. saying youre "not a true fan!!!" if you didnt like some things is infantile. even if you personally loved every single second and think its absolutely perfect it shouldnt be difficult to see why perhaps some do not share that exact same view while still being a fan
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Sep 4, 2017 23:56
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I don't see how you could claim to be a fan of Fire Walk With Me and Mulholland Drive and know how Lynch operates and appreciate it and not be a fan of this, but alright. I mean, he said he mostly liked it and considered it one of the better things he's seen recently. He just happens to also have criticisms. Criticisms that, for the most part, I can totally understand having, even if I don't agree. It's silly to act like if you didn't love every second of this show you can't understand Lynch at all.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:57
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Hmm, I dunno, it's not like this show ever had scenes of driving in cars at night, leaving towns, strangers, dreaming, taking pictures out of frames, etc. so it's really hard to answer that! Oh yeah, those classic literary themes like "taking pictures out of frames" and "driving". It's Chromatics. All their songs sound like that. They have an album called Night Drive. No one who hasn't seen this show but heard the song would ever think there's anything unusual about it compared to their other work. It does not matter if Lynch wrote it or what Johnny Jewel said, that scene would be essentially the same if they were playing some other song of theirs. And it's a good scene! I really like that scene, and obviously there is thought involved in looking at a band and assessing that their sound fits your style and putting them there. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 23:59
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I'm still sick about it. All day today I have been feeling supremely hosed up. What year is it?
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Sep 5, 2017 00:03
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the guy who thought alice tremond was the singer of the chromatics lecturing ppl on not getting it or understanding anything is so funny to me. stick to reposting facebook memes dude
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Sep 5, 2017 00:07
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I wonder if people would defend the James S2 plotline if it were written/directed by Lynch.
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Sep 5, 2017 00:07
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Cromulent posted:I wonder if people would defend the James S2 plotline if it were written/directed by Lynch. james was always cool 
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Sep 5, 2017 00:07
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I woke up with a headache because of show. That's drat fine filmmaking.
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Sep 5, 2017 00:08
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redreader posted:The woodsmen removed the Bob orb from the evil Cooper when he was shot midway through the season. But when he was shot again in the finale, they took Bob out again. I thought he'd been Bobless for the last part of the season but apparently I was wrong. Same, can anyone weigh in on whether we are dumb or there's intentionally conflicting info about BOB's whereabouts?
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Sep 5, 2017 00:11
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yea ok posted:the guy who thought alice tremond was the singer of the chromatics lecturing ppl on not getting it or understanding anything is so funny to me. stick to reposting facebook memes dude Come on dude, like you've never been wrong about anything in your life?
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Sep 5, 2017 00:11
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I'm bad at using grammar so I might gently caress up a bunch here. But here are my final takes on episode 18. Cooper hosed up big time. FWWM ended with Laura crying/laughing in joy seeing the Angel appear. Cooper stands beside/somewhat behind her with a hand on her shoulder. This is Laura's happy ending, one in which Cooper hardly plays a role. Her victory is in her death, one part murder and one part suicide. In her death she, in some sense, defeats Bob by denying influence. Leland is robbed of not only the object of incestuous perversion, but of a daughter who he did truly love. Bob of course lives on in Leland and then Cooper, but you have to imagine Bob would be pretty pissed. He wanted to inhabit Laura because of the pain and sorrow she would be able to create. Leland's primary source of pain and sorrow was generated through his raping of Laura. Laura's victory also denies the possibility of generational abuse continuing. Leland was abused as a child, raped by the man/BOB at the lake. Leland in turn abusing his daughter, who would presumably continue abusing her own family. From Laura's perspective, she ended the cycle of abuse. As viewers, we know that Maddy in turn was murdered and almost certainly raped, but this act is different from the prolonged and constant abuse of Laura. It feels awful to write this, but the fact of the matter is that Laura, bludgeoned to death and wrapped in plastic, defeated Bob in a deeper and more meaningful way than Freddy punching him into oblivion. Do you really think Bob is gone? Freddy may have killed him, but, as we know, death is just a change. Laura knew this and embraced it. Cooper did not. By leading Laura away from her death, Cooper robs her of her victory. He saves Laura, but only from death. He doesn't recognize that Laura, and by proxy victims of abuse, don't need a knight to run in and save them. They need support. Cooper's intervention is futile, Laura has already endured YEARS of terrible degradation and abuse. She's already made her choice. Cooper leads her astray, literally leading her deeper into the woods.  Cooper role is not to lead Laura, but to support her.  My understanding on what exactly happens to Laura and Cooper after he "saves" her is more tenuous. It has to do with dreams, but I think in Lynch's world these aren't just neurons firing while asleep. These dreams are, as Lynch might say, "worlds" where entire lives are lived and universes die. Alternate realities is probably a better term, but that's too sci-fi. The key thing is that the reality of Carrie and Richard is as real as the world of Laura and Cooper. This dream is a fully formed world and, for reasons I don't understand, Cooper is able to enter it. We don't know who the dreamer is, but we will soon find out (Spoilers: Its Laura). He finds Carrie, who of course is Laura. She doesn't retain any memories of her life as Laura, but there is some recognition when Cooper tells her the name of her parents. She also has a dead man in her house. Although Cooper saved Laura, even in this other world Laura is trapped in the cycle of domestic violence. I'm assuming she killed him, an action I can't imagine Laura taking against Leland (these are obviously very different situations and I can't draw too much of a comparison. The important point is that this is a return to domestic violence). Once again Cooper leads Laura deeper into the woods, taking her from one place of domestic violence to the place where the story starts. I don't know what to make of the Tremond stuff, maybe something like this dream world is a reassortment of the facts of original world. I'm not that interested in that. What is important is that Cooper leads Laura back to her home. She is looking at the house where she suffered horrendously. She looks through the window that her father Leland would crawl through before raping her, an almost theatrical addition to sexual sadism. The facade of Carrie is broken when her mother calls out "Laura". She wakes up, the world of Carrie is gone. She's back in the world of Laura. Now here are some interesting things to think about if we take Judy as "knowing": It seems that the world of Carrie is ended, totally annihilated by Carrie hearing Sarah and realizing that she is in fact Laura Palmer. The Knowing causes her to wake and the dream to end. So what happens to Cooper? My thought is that he is gone. Now I'm going to bold this part, because I think most people will be sick of my rambling by this point. I've also included a picture of a cool car for emphasis. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF TWIN PEAKS: THE RETURN  If Judy is Knowing, then we've already met her. Laura decision to die comes only after she KNOWS that Bob is in fact Leland. Judy is the knowledge that she has been being raped by her father. Its not a physical entity, at least not in this case. But most important is that Laura is not destroyed by this knowledge. Laura is able to process her knowing and make a decision based on it. She is able to stand up against this force that the FBI are so afraid of, that destroys Cooper. How can this be? Laura is the One
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Sep 5, 2017 00:18
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I thought Alice Tremond was Mo Collins for sure
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Sep 5, 2017 00:21
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LLA )-:
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Sep 5, 2017 00:27
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Richard is everyone who was disappointed by the finale:
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Sep 5, 2017 00:30
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Sep 5, 2017 00:32
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The worst twist here is that Cooper has essentially brought Laura back for more suffering. Discount Viscount posted:LLA )-: lla...ma?? tibet??
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Sep 5, 2017 00:36
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I thought the ending was good. The general execution of the things happening in the alternative world was suitably creepy and depressing. It just didn't seem like it was what the show had been building up to. It's bizarre to me that 'saving Laura Palmer' was going to be as extremely literal as 'preventing her from being murdered 25 years ago'. I had not gotten the sense from the rest of the season that things were going to be this literal, or that this possibility would seem plausible to anyone in the show based on what we knew about the cosmology. If anything, the show seemed to suggest a more deterministic world. I also don't know to what extent it works to try and make Laura a special figure (of divine creation, apparently, and then have a finale devoted to her) while having a bunch of other victims of BOB and similar spirits, similar sufferers of abuse. Something in this metaphor doesn't sit quite right with me. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 00:41
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Art Alexakis posted:From Laura's perspective, she ended the cycle of abuse. As viewers, we know that Maddy in turn was murdered and almost certainly raped, but this act is different from the prolonged and constant abuse of Laura. This is pretty interesting analysis, but I feel like this point is too damaging. Bob kills and rapes a ton of people after Laura. It's hard to say she defeated him in any meaningful way.
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Sep 5, 2017 00:47
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Is Ike The Spike essentially the bumbling hitman from Mulholland Drive? He only had to kill that one woman who ordered the guys to plant the bomb on Dougie's car, and instead he killed her and 2 other coworkers of hers (so at least 3 people that we know of), and in killing the last one, he bent his spike and was all sad about it.
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Sep 5, 2017 00:55
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What year is it?
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Sep 5, 2017 00:57
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The more I think about it, the more this reminds me of a slightly more twisted "All Good Things" from Star Trek TNG. Lots of space fuckery, erased timelines, shifting, all at the will of a race of infinite god-beings. But the Lodge spirits are a little more indifferent than Q.
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Sep 5, 2017 01:00
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Pedro De Heredia posted:This is pretty interesting analysis, but I feel like this point is too damaging. Bob kills and rapes a ton of people after Laura. It's hard to say she defeated him in any meaningful way. That depends on whether or not you believe the goal is to save Laura.
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Sep 5, 2017 01:00
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