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tiistai posted:I'm sure you're not being serious, but Of course the mechanism for the 11 keys and the turning lions is in no way relevant to actually solving any of the mysteries, I was just pointing out how ridiculously elaborate and expensive such a device would have to be. Frankly, at this point I'll be disappointed if there's a Knox or Van Dine rule that doesn't get deliberately broken at some point.
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Sep 4, 2017 19:09
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"My father created the Decalogue to act as a crutch for the power of THINKING. It most certainly wasn't made as a way to arrogantly decide things."
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ZiegeDame posted:PS. Nice complicated device leading to a hidden passage. I guess there's a reason Dlanor is nowhere to be seen in this episode. Dlanor would be upset, but the original set of rules allowed for exactly one hidden passage, if the ground were properly prepared. I think the story has earned this one. Graylien posted:...dammit Genji A valid point of view. However: ProfessorProf posted:
On this occasion, I think Genji's decision will be correct. Or at least not make things worse. One thing that has struck me during this retelling: the stories written about Genji helping out with the murders seem hopelessly naive at this point. I would be very surprised if he were involved when we find out what the real sequence of events is, assuming we ever do.
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Sep 4, 2017 19:30
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"My friend. Will the final bit of magic in my life bring me a miracle...?"
"..."
"...Very well. No one will solve it. So, it will be a miracle."
"Master. Please, tell me one thing."
"Nn, what is it?"
"If, I ask you. If a miracle does occur..."
"Nn..."
"...I do not claim to know everything about your heart and Beatrice-sama's. However, I believe that I do know, in part... of the way in which Beatrice-sama adored you."
"Yes, my friend. I regret it. I deeply regret the mistakes I made in my youth. You have aged as well, so you must know. I could not feel guilt for the sins of my youth when I was still young. However, like a deep thorn, it began to fester, torturing me. I, Ushiromiya Kinzo, no longer care how I die! However, this thorn... this regret... is the one thing I must settle... I will return everything to Beatrice. And, I will ask her to forgive me for my sins...! That is... That is my only and final wish... Ooh, oooooohhhh... Uwaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh...!!"
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idonotlikepeas posted:Dlanor would be upset, but the original set of rules allowed for exactly one hidden passage, if the ground were properly prepared. I think the story has earned this one. Clearly this does make everything worse, though.
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Sep 4, 2017 19:33
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witchcore ricepunk posted:I'm glad my prize is just satisfaction and not having to put on my dead mom's clothes! Though actually to be honest the promise of a new avatar was a decent part of my motivation to solve this thing. (What is that, $5? lol) I'm just putting it out there, but... Lion would be cute  edit: wahhhh 谢谢! Thanks umineko buds!! witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 19:35
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Genji did nothing wrong. As if Sayo ain't digging the chance to get the OG clothes to complete her witch cosplay
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Sep 4, 2017 19:55
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Though actually to be honest the promise of a new avatar was a decent part of my motivation to solve this thing. (What is that, $5? lol) I'm just putting it out there, but... Lion would be cute we've kinda been lazy about it but being straight with you we planned to give you Lion since like episode 4-5
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Sep 4, 2017 20:28
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idonotlikepeas posted:On this occasion, I think Genji's decision will be correct. Or at least not make things worse. Dude... how can you say that? After what we know about what Kinzo did, and to whom, and why? As has already been brought up, he's attacked his own children before: why would having his sick and cowardly fantasies indulged help anything? He raped his daughter. Am I supposed to forget or support this because he feels a bit sorry about it? No. If Genji really wanted to "not make things worse," why didn't he surrender Yasu to the state, or give them away to some other private orphanage? Don't tell me between him, Nanjo and Kumasawa they could have found some other home for the kid, suspicious circumstances and injuries be damned. Just write a big check and stick it in the basket, and then forget about it; and every time Kinzo goes on about "Ohh, Beatrice!" in his later years, gently duggest maybe establishing a charity in their name, or something. There's your "correct decision," sir.
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Sep 4, 2017 20:41
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Ah, so that's the physical component. Lot simpler than I might have expected.idonotlikepeas posted:On this occasion, I think Genji's decision will be correct. Or at least not make things worse. Genji's decision...is questionable. It's theoretically a passable idea, but I trust Kinzo about as far as Kanon can throw Beatrice. Hmm...I think we're still a year before Kinzo's death. I also disagree, some of our solutions basically require that Genji be in on it. I'm thinking episode 1 second twilight, and episode 2 first twilight.
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Sep 4, 2017 21:19
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i would like to congratulate Witchcore Ricepunk on her sweet new av
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Sep 4, 2017 21:23
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I have a sneaking suspicion Kinzo didn't die of old age.
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Sep 4, 2017 21:25
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Robindaybird posted:I have a sneaking suspicion Kinzo didn't die of old age. That was my first thought, but aren't we still a year away? Also, that av is beautiful.
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Sep 4, 2017 21:33
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Cyouni posted:I also disagree, some of our solutions basically require that Genji be in on it. I'm thinking episode 1 second twilight, and episode 2 first twilight. How so? We've already established that Genji will just casually go along with whatever delusion Yasu tells him, so him not checking for himself when Kanon says a door is locked isn't unusual. Certainly Genji was capable of stopping or interfering with the crimes if he just said or did anything to prevent them, but that's not the same as actively assisting. At least from a mystery-solving perspective.
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Sep 4, 2017 21:47
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So Genji actually believes that Kinzo is just gonna apologize when he sees Beatrice again. He actually believes it. Graylien posted:...dammit Genji
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Sep 4, 2017 21:53
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bman in 2288 posted:So Genji actually believes that Kinzo is just gonna apologize when he sees Beatrice again. Maybe she kills Kinzo next. 
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Sep 4, 2017 21:57
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Even if he just apologizes, its unhealthy for Yasu to get tangled into Kinzo's delusions like this because last time it ended in rape. I have atleast enough faith in Genji to stop it from happening a 2nd time, but it's still giving me a very negative opinion on him. She had already rationalized being Beatrice but not Kinzo's Beatrice with "I was a different witch, stealing the name of the witch from Kinzo's delusions.", but with "And now, I have become the real Beatrice..." she to some degree believes she is that person. I can't predict what that'll do to her already unstable mental state but I can't imagine it'll be anything good.
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Sep 4, 2017 22:03
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loving everyone posted:...dammit Genji I speak for the people idonotlikepeas posted:Dlanor would be upset, but the original set of rules allowed for exactly one hidden passage, if the ground were properly prepared. I think the story has earned this one. I can see how Genji's (probably) thinking on this one, he is the only servant who's actually one-winged eagle furniture for Kinzo, he's known the man for years and is clearly incredibly loyal, he just wants Kinzo to be able to apologise and get rid of his guilt, and for Yasu to find a family. It's a loving terrible way to go about it, but I can understand the reasoning. Although, I'm still not sure why Genji's so loyal. Kinzo has never been a good person, he used to be better, certainly, but even young Kinzo was a poo poo. Maybe we'll get some big revelation, (probably, the stories been drat good about that so far) but right now I don't see how fifty years of being a guys servant makes you like him enough to ignore all this, and even try to help him. Maybe he thinks that Kinzo just needs to say sorry and his mental illness will go away and he'll be all sunshine and rainbows, who knows.
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Sep 4, 2017 23:18
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If Genji has been working for Kinzo since before the war, that means he knew him back when he was just a pawn for the Ushiromiya elders. So it's possible his loyalty at least partly derives from pity leading him to overlook his personality flaws in light of his lovely circumstances. And that could certainly be compounding by seeing him actually be happy for the first time after meeting Bice and then she dies and then everything else happens and someone has to take care of the monster. But oh no Genji, now you too are the monster. (And this line of reasoning has lead me to draw the weirdest loving parallels. And the first half is basically just an elaborate scheme to get Battler to say "I love you" and oh god I can't stop myself.)
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Sep 4, 2017 23:39
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idonotlikepeas posted:Dlanor would be upset, but the original set of rules allowed for exactly one hidden passage, if the ground were properly prepared. I think the story has earned this one. Yeah, in particular the expanded version of the Decalogue goes into detail to say that a hidden passage would be pointlessly expensive to construct and would raise a hell of a lot of interest from the locals. Except in this case, Kinzo had a bunch of fascist gold and an abandoned naval base island all to himself. If the psycho wanted a secret passage or even a secret mansion, the only thing that would actually stop him is the family he made especially sure to keep a far, far distance away from himself and his creepy lusts.
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Sep 5, 2017 01:49
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resurgam40 posted:Dude... how can you say that? After what we know about what Kinzo did, and to whom, and why? As has already been brought up, he's attacked his own children before: why would having his sick and cowardly fantasies indulged help anything? He raped his daughter. Am I supposed to forget or support this because he feels a bit sorry about it? Nope. But on the other hand, what about Yasu? Let's for a moment assume that Kinzo doesn't deserve anything but a hot poker to the eye, not even the chance to tell someone he's sorry for the crime he committed. Genji doesn't see it that way, but there's no reason we have to agree with him. However, Yasu is the direct product of all of Kinzo's terrible decisions. They deserve that apology, and this is likely to be the only way they can get it. Kinzo's explicit acknowledgment also makes Yasu not just a member of the family, but the head of it. Now, we know from later events that they decided not to really take up this post, but from Genji's point of view, they deserve those things too. He is, in his own way, trying to make the situation better. Sure, I'd say a foster family would be a better choice in pretty much any way that matters, but a lot of people feel that biological family is important, and Genji seems to be one of them. Cyouni posted:I also disagree, some of our solutions basically require that Genji be in on it. I'm thinking episode 1 second twilight, and episode 2 first twilight. Remember, the episodes we've been going through are all stories, either written by Yasu and put into message bottles, or written later as forgeries (probably also by Yasu, if my theory is correct). Genji has only participated in the murder in those stories. Here, we're seeing what I believe the author intends as the true history of the character Yasu, albeit colored by their unique perceptions. The picture we get of Genji here is a bit different from what we've seen in the other stories. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 03:28
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idonotlikepeas posted:Sure, I'd say a foster family would be a better choice in pretty much any way that matters, but a lot of people feel that biological family is important, and Genji seems to be one of them. Just as a reminder, Japan, particularly 1967 Japan, does not have the same systems of foster care or adoption that we'd be familiar with in the West. Basically if a child is orphaned they get foisted on the closest living adult relative who'll take care of them. And since Yasu's mother and grandmother were both un-persons that doesn't really leave them a lot of options.
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Sep 5, 2017 03:59
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jesus christ Genji isn't going to let Kinzo rape Sayo.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:49
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All the hosed up connections between Kinzo and that dress aside, Genji is not just enabling but actively encouraging Yasu's delusions right now. Genji has lost all claims to caring about Yasu's well-being at this point.
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Sep 5, 2017 16:41
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Tired Moritz posted:jesus christ Genji isn't going to let Kinzo rape Sayo. He didn't stop Kinzo from raping Sayo's mother.
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Sep 5, 2017 16:42
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:He didn't stop Kinzo from raping Sayo's mother. And it really seems like he regrets it an awful lot.
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Sep 5, 2017 16:51
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:He didn't stop Kinzo from raping Sayo's mother. it wasn't like here he was outside the room nodding as it was happening. Sayo seemed to like Genji enough to make him an anime bishie demon and he's just trying his best to give Sayo a good life. I don't think what he is doing right now is necessarily the worst thing ever.
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Sep 5, 2017 17:01
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ZiegeDame posted:All the hosed up connections between Kinzo and that dress aside, Genji is not just enabling but actively encouraging Yasu's delusions right now. Genji has lost all claims to caring about Yasu's well-being at this point. I don't understand what you expect Genji to do. After all, what Sayo is doing is basically an extreme version of Maria's "witch mode" and everyone seemed to agree that it was fine to just let her keep doing that.
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Sep 5, 2017 17:03
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ZiegeDame posted:All the hosed up connections between Kinzo and that dress aside, Genji is not just enabling but actively encouraging Yasu's delusions right now. Genji has lost all claims to caring about Yasu's well-being at this point. I think that Genji is really valuing the well-being of Kinzo getting another chance to apologize over what he's letting Yasu get into. On one hand, I might sympathize because Kinzo does seem to be suffering towards the end of his life, but on the other hand I'm pretty sure that letting Yasu impersonate both the conceptual amalgamation of his wife and daughter, in addition to what you said about encouraging Yasu's delusions, is overall a pretty bad idea. Yasu's going to find out that they're a result of incest, and probably flip out. Besides, I don't really trust Kinzo's DESIRE to not kick in soon after he sees another Beatrice. Tired Moritz posted:jesus christ Genji isn't going to let Kinzo rape Sayo.     : "It wouldn't be out of character for Father..."edit: VVV this too EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 17:05
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It seems like Genji knew what the score was with Sayo's mom, but he didn't intervene. At best, he stood by while she was imprisoned on the island at Kinzo's pleasure. At worst, he actively participated in imprisoning her, concealing her presence, and enabling Kinzo. Genji might not have been nodding along, but the best we can say is that he just put his fingers in his ears and pretended nothing was wrong. Now he's trying to puppetmaster a family reunion between an abuser and his victim.
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Sep 5, 2017 17:05
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Yeah, even if Genji has the best of intentions of mind - this is absolutely the worst thing he can do. Getting Kinzo near the child of his victim - who looks far as we know like their mother - and again, feeding Yasu's fantasies, which will in the long run will destroy them. Maybe Kinzo just wants to apologize, but what if he sees Yasu in Beatrice's dress and decided she came back to life as his lover again? - and what if finding out the truth about their origins completely and utterly destroy Yasu? Either way, meeting Kinzo is the last thing Yasu needs.
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Sep 5, 2017 17:29
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Just in case there's some genuine anxiety about where this is going, I'm going to briefly bend my usual spoiler policy here. You can read or not read this at your own discretion accordingly. Kinzo doesn't rape Yasu. They will not be physically harmed at all in the following scene. There is to my recollection only one more bit in the remainder of the LP that I'm going to need to put up a warning for, and it's exactly one screenshot long.
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Sep 5, 2017 17:34
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Tired Moritz posted:I don't understand what you expect Genji to do. Anything that isn't saying "Yes, you truly are the resurrection of the witch Beatrice." quote:After all, what Sayo is doing is basically an extreme version of Maria's "witch mode" and everyone seemed to agree that it was fine to just let her keep doing that. Maria is a 9 year old who acts smug when talking about a subject she knows more about than adults. Yasu is (at this point) a 17 year old who invented a little brother and got him his own job. Not to mention all the other poo poo going on in their head, which if Genji isn't at least partly aware of it's his fault for not paying attention.
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Sep 5, 2017 18:19
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How would people know that Yasu actually internally roleplays as Beatrice in their spare time
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Sep 5, 2017 18:38
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tiistai posted:How would people know that Yasu actually internally roleplays as Beatrice in their spare time Not necessarily Beatrice, but someone has to know about the Kanon/Shannon thing. There's no way anyone could pull that off alone. Although possibly Kanon is still delusion at this point and doesn't get his own clothes and work schedule until after Yasu becomes the new head. Either way, Genji is doing this for Kinzo, he can't actually think this is going to help Yasu unless he's a lot stupider than he seems.
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Sep 5, 2017 19:04
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tiistai posted:How would people know that Yasu actually internally roleplays as Beatrice in their spare time In addition to the Kanon stuff, according to Maria, Genji was aware of Yasu's witchcraft tea parties where they externally roleplayed Beatrice.
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Sep 5, 2017 19:56
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Even setting aside what this morbid game of dress-up is doing to enable Yasu's own delusions, the most damaging part might be presenting Yasu to Kinzo as the true embodiment of the Beatrice whom he has wronged and whose forgiveness he wishes to receive. Yasu has been wronged by Kinzo, no doubt, but Yasu is not "Beatrice," in the sense of "an amalgamation of all the women wronged by Kinzo to whom he has applied that name," which is what Kinzo seems to be looking for here. Yasu does not have the power, and should not bear the responsibility, to forgive Kinzo for all the damage he has done to Yasu's mother and grandmother... but that's what he's going to be asking for. And Genji is complicit in putting Yasu in that position by putting Yasu in that dress.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:04
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ProfessorProf posted:Just in case there's some genuine anxiety about where this is going, I'm going to briefly bend my usual spoiler policy here. You can read or not read this at your own discretion accordingly. ok yes thank you prof!
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Sep 5, 2017 20:06
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I forgot to mention, but congrats Witchcore for solving the epitaph. That poo poo was impressive! As an aside, Kinzo had better be responsible for saving Genji's live, the lives of Genji's loved ones, his dog, his cat, the person who makes pretty good food that Genji enjoys when he's not on duty, feeding Genji's tamagatchi, and deleting Genji 18 GBs of IKEA furniture catalogues/porn when he was in an emergency, because otherwise I'm not too sure why Genji feels so indebted to this person. I hope that there's an answer for it.
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Sep 5, 2017 22:38
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Genji has to either owe Kinzo his life, or he's in love with Kinzo (God knows WHY but given his demon counterpart is pretty much gay....), but I think in a way I hate him even more than Kinzo now.
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Sep 6, 2017 00:17
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Robindaybird posted:Genji has to either owe Kinzo his life, or he's in love with Kinzo (God knows WHY but given his demon counterpart is pretty much gay....), but I think in a way I hate him even more than Kinzo now. Kinzo can't apologize to Beatrice because Beatrice is dead. She fell off a cliff and her head was caved in with a sharp rock because she was attempting to flee from her controlling rapist of a father. Kinzo didn't murder Beatrice but he sure as gently caress manslaughtered her in my opinion, like, if someone is running to get away from an attacker and the attacker chases them into traffic, that's manslaughter, right?
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Sep 6, 2017 01:00
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PetraCore posted:In Genji's defense he might think that the freedom involved with the money would help Yasu get the resources and help they need to be happy. Where things get hosed up is him agreeing to do some big dramatic apology thing that Yasu isn't going to understand or want. Nah Beatrice did not even understand Kinzo was a controling rapist. She was too innocent for that. She just wanted to check out the outside world after Rosa said it could be done.
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Sep 6, 2017 02:52
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