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Stallion Cabana posted:can you find a more perfect metaphor for Ninninger then 'the dog mech does nothing for the robot and the dumptruck is awkwardly hanging around waiting to do something' Actually most of the dump truck forms the torso, just that part of it also becomes an arm
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Sep 6, 2017 22:30
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The entire ending of Gaim, and I will fight anyone who argues with me on this, is the antithesis of what Kamen Rider should be, and more importantly has been. We've argued on this before and back then I wasn't able to really articulate why properly. Now I can. Gaim is not a good Kamen Rider series because the end of the show features the main hero siding with the problem and becoming part of the system. You can't even claim that it has a self sacrifice angle to it because Kouta is not alone in his new god paradise that will perpetuate the destruction of society for all time, and he can just go back to the Earth whenever the gently caress he wants. It might be fun, and it has some great moments and a great concept, but the ending alone, even before the finale episode that further drove it into the ground, is some Grade A missing the point of what the Kamen Rider franchise is. A reoccurring theme in Kamen Rider, and especially Ishinomori, is siding against the system. Kamen Rider is a hero that does not exist in society, because society is ultimately to blame for the reasons he has to fight. This is held true even in shows created after Ishinomori's death. Ryuki, Fiaz, Agito, Blade, W, OOOs, Decade sort of as much as Decade has a story, Fourze, Amazons, Ex-Aid All of them feature this theme to some degree or other. I think Ghost and Wizard do as well. Gaim just straight up has Kouta decide, yeah, I'm going to become the System that's ruined all these countless lives and keep it going forever.
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Sep 6, 2017 22:43
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Burkion posted:The entire ending of Gaim, and I will fight anyone who argues with me on this, is the antithesis of what Kamen Rider should be, and more importantly has been. We've argued on this before and back then I wasn't able to really articulate why properly. Now I can. Burkion posted:A reoccurring theme in Kamen Rider, and especially Ishinomori, is siding against the system. Kamen Rider is a hero that does not exist in society, because society is ultimately to blame for the reasons he has to fight.
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Sep 6, 2017 23:04
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I would like to see Urobuchi do an Amazons type adult series. I feel like he was capable of something better than Gaim. Madoka already had a similar but better ending, and the characters when are confronted with a similar creature to DJ Sagura they don't take him at his word like that dipshit Kouta.
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Sep 6, 2017 23:18
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Burkion posted:Strong words about Gaim It's odd for me to read this, given where I'm at with Gaim. I kinda fell out of Toku fandom around Gaim ep 32-33 or so due to some circumstances, and only got pulled back in by a rapid Ex-Aid catchup. The strongest memory I have of that show is the really great Kachidoki Arms arc where Kouta is very much directly confronting authority and opposing an unjust system. It seemed like the point of the show was trying to overcome the worst aspects of humanity in the face of an alien threat, which itself was essentially morally neutral and more of a natural disaster. But in retrospect, even at the point where I left off the system was crumbling and it was transitioning to a more Helheim-focused threat, which wasn't really as interesting. Now that I have time I really gotta find those eps somewhere and see it through, but it's sad to think the best of the series is behind me. (To be clear I know most of the spoilers already, I just need context)
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Sep 7, 2017 00:14
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Kachidoki Arms arc was really the best part of Gaim. It really was His best form, his best moments as a Rider, just really good all around. And then he got his final form like, ten episodes too soon, and the rest...you'll see. Toys hit Gaim hard. If they could have had more flexibility with when they had things show up, they had the perfect moment near the end of the series for his Kiwami arms to appear. Instead, they get shoved in way too soon.
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Sep 7, 2017 00:17
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I have some slowly developing thoughts on what Gaim was going for there and the gap between that and what came out, but I'm not going to be able to post them until way later anyway. tl;dr Gaim is built around Kouta's reluctant escalation of power being necessary for him to break down increasingly large Systems that contain each other, but the show draws a hard line at Helheim itself, in a certain amount of contradiction of its message up to that point.
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Sep 7, 2017 00:18
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Ex-Aid is about working against the system? Didn't seem like that to me. At some point the Director is forced to realize the Riders are doing what is right instead of what is procedure and asks for the public to support them, but that's about it. 90% of what happens in that show is people trapped in a delusional idiot's long con.
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Sep 7, 2017 00:39
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Working against... the GAME system.
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Sep 7, 2017 00:57
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Craptacular! posted:Ex-Aid is about working against the system? Didn't seem like that to me. At some point the Director is forced to realize the Riders are doing what is right instead of what is procedure and asks for the public to support them, but that's about it. Agreed, Ex-Aid as well as Drive are definitely not about their Riders being outside of society, and any fighting against the system in those two shows is circumstantial in nature as well as temporary for the most part(heck Ex-Aid ends with Taiga becoming a legal doctor again) Indeed of the post Decade series only Build and Amazons really come off as particularly anti authoritarian in nature(and in Build's case it's due to them reviving the concept of a Shocker style villain conspiracy as well as artificially altering the very nature of Japan as a country)
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Sep 7, 2017 01:05
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Ex-Aid doesn't have to be anti authority to be a good time. Like, even Kuuga did not have a secret society running things as the villain. That was out at the outside of reviving kamen rider, that element was made as something no longer necessary. Likewise, Gaim has Yggdrasil as an authority and I'd argue DJ Sagura to be a godlike authority as well, and both of Yggdrasil and Helheim are villains at certain points in the series. Just shows that that element doesn't mean you're not going to screw it up.
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Sep 7, 2017 01:17
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Come to think of it, between Wizard, Gaim, and Ghost we have a lot of recent shows with a really short lived but cooler Mid-Season Power-Up. All-Dragon+Multi-Wizards, Kachidoki, and Grateful were all better (imo) than the final forms and they got thrown away pretty soon after their introduction if I recall correctly. Also their final forms were all really white and shiny too... Weird theme. Ex-Aid also had a shiny final form, but it was cooler than its mid-season Maximum, while Drive's Tridoron final form wasn't shiny but it was also cooler than it's mid-season Formula. Looking forward to seeing what happens with Build! Not the biggest fan of Rabbit Tank Sparking yet, but we've only seen one image of it so far, but Build's strong designs overall has me hopeful for a good final.
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Sep 7, 2017 02:14
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Holy poo poo, Rabbit Tank Sparking basically IS FangJoker, just with a red/blue color scheme and more pointy bits. This is looking like it's going to be Double 2: Double Trouble, and I cannot loving wait.
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Sep 7, 2017 02:33
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I'm still disappointed we never got to see Fang used with any of Shotaro's Memories besides Joker
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Sep 7, 2017 02:34
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drrockso20 posted:I'm still disappointed we never got to see Fang used with any of Shotaro's Memories besides Joker Absolutely. I guess it makes sense for Trigger since a Gun wouldn't add much to a Dinosaur, but FangMetal would've been rad. Same with CycloneJoker Extreme, honestly. It would've been expensive to make all those suit parts I guess, but I would've loved a HeatMetal or LunaTrigger Extreme.
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Sep 7, 2017 03:18
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Cipher Pol 9 posted:Absolutely. I guess it makes sense for Trigger since a Gun wouldn't add much to a Dinosaur, but FangMetal would've been rad. Two words that will bring despair for having never happened; Fang Skull
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Sep 7, 2017 03:22
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Cipher Pol 9 posted:Absolutely. I guess it makes sense for Trigger since a Gun wouldn't add much to a Dinosaur, but FangMetal would've been rad. There's a very obvious in-series explanation in that Joker is Shotaro's main Memory, he has the best affinity for it, to the point that the T2 Joker Memory specifically sought Shotaro, so of course the higher form tiers would require him to stick with it rather than switching to others. The same goes for Cyclone and Phillip, the moment Phillip got a power-up in-series, it immediately translated to Cyclone getting way stronger but we saw nothing changing with Heat or Luna. Also remember that Xtreme is its own memory, Cyclone and Joker are not in the Driver when it's used, despite the colourful beams the first time it inserts itself. It defaults to the user's main Memories, rather than imposing itself over them, hence why Terui would've created CycloneAccelXtreme instead. Out of series, other Xtremes would be impractical simply because the toy would have to have that many more sounds in it and it'd require several more suits to be created.
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Sep 7, 2017 03:50
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Hemingway To Go! posted:Ex-Aid doesn't have to be anti authority to be a good time. W is a legal Private Detective who regularly works with the police (even before Terui shows up)and is fighting something that's trying to usurp power and authority from the city and its people. Shotaro's not some outsider working outside the system. Dudes a well known part of his town and has a huge list of friends and allies in the city that grows with basically every case. His entire schtick as a detective is that he knows Fuuto and the people in it better than anyone, and he's here to save them. Siding against the system isn't really a major theme in most Kamen Riders. Blade ends with a self sacrifice to perpetually extend the system so they don't have to draw it to a conclusion, Den-O deffo doesn't have any of those themes in ti, DECADE HAS NO STORY, W and OOO's don't either. Fourze sets up those running the system/school as the villains but everything about Fourze is about the great things about youth and school life specifically so it's not really about fighting outside the system. Gaim and Drive don't have it and neither did Ex-Aid. This is some real No True Scotsman argument. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Sep 7, 2017 |
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Sep 7, 2017 03:51
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I think it might be more that all these other things acknowledge that sometimes the System has issues and you should ignore them to do what's right, while Gaim ends on 'the system is always right even if you hate it.' Shinosuke spends at least a couple of cases where he's literally not allowed to do anything as a police officer by going 'no, gently caress you, I'm going to do what's right', from his fight with the Thief Roidmude to his issues with the Minister of Defense, he is part of the system but he acknowledges that system isn't always right. Similarly EX-Aid has the whole 'The ministry has decided such and such' with Emu going 'That's not right and I'm not going to follow it'; a big part of it is that the higher ups eventually see it their way and go along with it. Gaim finishes it's story instead with a message of blind obedience to an uncaring system. That you can't change it so there's no point raising a shitfit about it being broken or wrong; these other stories instead have a narrative more like 'The System has good things and bad things, it's wrong to be blindly obedient to it to the point it changes your values, but it has an inherent value in the System when it's put to good causes.'
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Sep 7, 2017 04:17
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The system in this case is the intended order of things no matter what. Not literally society itself, that's stupid. It's a broad term referring to what the Problem Is. Like, seriously, it doesn't refer to things that actually WORK. That would make the Kamen Riders horrible monsters who punch babies because they're anti social assholes, and that only applies to some of them. Its the vague hierarchy that causes trouble for people that normal people are not aware of and can do nothing about. With the original manga, the problem is and boils down to society moving away from humanity and towards an uncaring, inhuman system, no matter what the people want. The TV series personified that into the Great Leader himself, who still could only do what he did because of truly awful people, such as the remnants of the Nazi party and those of like minded natures. Kuuga absolutely fought against the system- not against the one of humanity, because that was doing its job and protecting people. No, he fought against the system of the Grongi, pointedly refusing to play their game and subverting the ultimate intent of the final battle by just being a good person. W would absolutely go against the law, and did so, to uphold justice. That was their job as private detectives. Blade *ESPECIALLY* went against the intended system. The intended system was 'seal away that one guy and everything can be happy forever' That's not what he chose to do. OOOs was supposed to become the new Greeed King and enact his will on the world, his desires. He and Ankh break that in half. Decade is super loving broken because no one gave a poo poo about it, but the intended idea was that Decade was supposed to kill all of the other Riders so that the universe could be reborn or some poo poo and then he'd be discarded, only he was also the Great Leader or a scion of the Great Leader? And then Decade is stupid Gaim has the literal system of the forest as a personified force. A sentient being that has perpetuated misery and death for eons in search of a new heir to its power. This is the plot of like, three different Kamen Riders. Black and Blade included. Hell when you get down to it, it's the plot of the original with the Great Leader, an unstoppable unkillable force of nature that seeks to bend humanity to his will and whims. Kamen Rider's battle against him is doomed to go on forever because he is not a problem you can punch away. Blade chose to sacrifice his own happiness for the sake of others and to not play into what the intention of the Undead's Game was. Kouta becomes God because that worked out great for the Overlords before you
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Sep 7, 2017 04:29
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Kaito was the real protagonist of Gaim.
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Sep 7, 2017 04:29
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Seriously I don't know how you think I'm brain dead stupid enough to say that Kamen Riders fight society itself. Kamen Riders fight for people. They fight for justice. Typically, they fight against some Other, generally a stand in for Nazis, that are harming people. In Ryuki, it was the Mirror World and their highlander games. I cited Kuuga as an example and that should have clarified what I was talking about immediately, because Kuuga literally works with the police. He also, it should be noted, would work around them if he had to. We know this because he did. He only told the detective who he was because he was his friend and he wanted him not to worry. Which is part of what I mean by they exist outside of society comes in. If they have to go against the established order, even if its otherwise a good thing, they will. This is pretty unique to Kamen Rider because you can see other Japanese super hero works, the newest of which being My Hero Academia but also having ties in Tiger and Bunny and other 'hero system' shows, where Kamen Rider style heroes just do not exist. Kamen Riders would be considered vigilantes in those shows that have to be shown why they have to follow the rules of society, when the only iron clad rule a Kamen Rider follows is justice. Justice is a very ill defined thing, yeah, but Amazons helps define it with Jin's motto "For the protection of humanity".
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Sep 7, 2017 04:46
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Burkion posted:W would absolutely go against the law, and did so, to uphold justice. That was their job as private detectives. That's...not what private detectives do and outside of one or two exceptions it's not what Shotaro did by and large. By and Large the detective agency is doing things as they should and working with law enforcement as best they can, especially after Terui joins the cast. Like you're really stretching an example to push a narrative somewhere it doesn't work. I'm not saying it's not a theme in a lot of shows, but a lot of your examples are really wonky reads that feel like you trying to angle them to fit your thesis and not fitting your thesis based on evidence.
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Sep 7, 2017 04:53
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I feel like I played a part in bringing that Burkion rant on, but I've never watched any KR except Ex-Aid so it was more curious and blind pushing. You've made long elaborate posts about KR, authority, fascism, etc in the past. I'd just warn you that if you passionately feel this subtext is an immutable theme to be carried through the franchise from year to year that... well... they're not often bug-men anymore either, and even the kids can pick up on that. The management of this era certainly doesn't feel bound to any sacred traditions. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Sep 7, 2017 |
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Sep 7, 2017 05:02
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Craptacular! posted:I feel like I played a part in bringing that Burkion rant on, but I've never watched any KR except Ex-Aid so it was more curious and blind pushing. The bug theme is hardly one that ever mattered. Ishinomori only chose it because his kid liked grasshoppers. Originally it was going to be a skull, due to his original work Skullman that kind of worked as a dark prototype for Kamen Rider. With the animal theme, as even among the original 7 Riders, Amazon was a hybrid of lizards and fish and not a bug in any way, the original intent was an exploration of Nature VS Science. Specifically science that was bent away from humanity. I know you were using the bug man theme as a rough thing, but the point I'm trying to make here is No theme is absolute from show to show. Of the 7 original Riders, only Ichigo, Nigo, Riderman and Stronger come from the villains. And Riderman is arguable at best. The problem here is, Gaim directly calls to those themes. In fact, part of Kouta's development through the series is rebelling against the way things are and growing as his own person. Taking his own power to protect the world and the people he cares for. And then at the end the Creation King tells him to go kill his brother and become the next Creation King, and Kouta says sure, but only so I can make sure that your evil cult never hurts anyone again you big so and so. Only Kouta is nicer than that about it. All of that development, and its thrown into the wind because Kouta decides taking on the powers of evil for himself sounds rad, I'm sure this clearly sentient and personified force of evil won't find a way to slip past my notice like it did every single other time it's done this poo poo.
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Sep 7, 2017 05:13
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Hell we actually saw Naruto give in in the same way with Wizard and it was framed as a very bad thing.
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Sep 7, 2017 05:30
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It's very weird because the entire reason Sagara likes Kouta in the first place is because he's willing to break the status quo. Hell, Sagara outright classifies the important characters in three categories: status quo-breaker (Kouta), so stubborn that he'll either get what he wants or die trying (Kaito) and too bound to the status quo to ever succeed (Yggdrasil), it should be noted that he does this while the third is by far the most powerful faction of the series yet he outright says that they have no chance of victory whatsoever in contrast to the much weaker Kouta and Kaito because they're willing to go against reality if needed. Kouta's main reason to attract Sagara's attention is that he refuses to accept that sacrifices must be done to accomplish anything. It's directly stated in Kachidoki's theme song, Rise Up Your Flag: quote:So I won’t give in, I’ll keep fighting back This isn't speculation, the series beats you with a hammer over Kouta being important because he's not bound by the system, and Kaito being dangerous because he has no ties to anything other than his own ambition. So the series ends with...Kouta deciding to not change the rules of anything. Sure, he saves humanity in specific from Helheim, but Helheim is still there and will still cause the same poo poo on more planets including Earth again maybe, all Kouta did was saving his own people and that might be delaying the inevitable. He basically agreed with the final enemy because he was a force of nature. And Kaito, who is much better, just dies. Chaos route best route.
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Sep 7, 2017 05:37
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Elfgames posted:Hell we actually saw Naruto give in in the same way with Wizard and it was framed as a very bad thing. Never giving up hope is his Wizard way. Believe it!
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Sep 7, 2017 05:41
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Am I remembering the end of Gaim wrong?  I thought it ended with Sagara going 'yo you have the power now Kouta, now destroy the world', and Kouta going 'no gently caress that' and transporting the entirety of Helheim to another planet at the edge of the universe?It's been a while, but I very much remember Kouta going 'your system sucks I'm doing it my way' and just loving off to keep Helheim trapped on it's own world. Maybe I need to rewatch the last bit of Gaim again...
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Sep 7, 2017 05:51
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Dexie posted:Am I remembering the end of Gaim wrong?
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Sep 7, 2017 06:07
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PMush Perfect posted:Nah, you're right, IIRC. Goons are mad at kids' shows for no reason. News at 11. It wasn't a complete dismantling of the system and was victory that in places was bittersweet. Clearly not the Kamen Rider way like beating the enemy but still being forced to wands the earth as a hell machine that can never be human again.
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Sep 7, 2017 06:20
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Stallion Cabana posted:IIRC Kaito's actor is like, literally a professional dancer or something?
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Sep 7, 2017 07:10
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I actually can't imagine that. Ryota Ozawa just does such a good job of selling the character, anybody else in the role just wouldn't be the same.
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Sep 7, 2017 07:31
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Kiryama auditioned for three other kamen rider parts before getting shotaro!
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Sep 7, 2017 11:30
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Dexie posted:Am I remembering the end of Gaim wrong? Yes but nothing is done about helheim itself. Humanity is saved but helheim goes off to gently caress with and genocide other sapient speicies.
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Sep 7, 2017 13:05
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Hemingway To Go! posted:Yes but nothing is done about helheim itself. Humanity is saved but helheim goes off to gently caress with and genocide other sapient speicies. Yeah, Kouta doesn't really solve the problem in the end so much as he just relocates it. Honestly the only real theme of Kamen Rider that has lasted since the beginning is the concept of the hero using the same or a similar power as their enemies against them, and even that has it's exceptions (V3, Super-1, RX(though Crisis did have a hand in accidentally creating the powers), and maybe Hibiki).
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Sep 7, 2017 13:27
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Larryb posted:Yeah, Kouta doesn't really solve the problem in the end so much as he just relocates it. We don't see or really get details on how he handles it afterwards. My rationalization is that he "reformed" the system, but with so little details, I can't effectively argue against Burkion's very well presented and intelligent points. I just loving love Gaim, man, so much. Crazy to think it was in 2013, feels like the experience of watching it was yesterday, legit one of my most cherished experiences. I'll also go to bat for Kiva, but in a "guys, I know it sucks, I know every goddamn plot beat is excruciating and it's misogynist as gently caress and oh my god it's just a painful experience, but it's got some pretty dang good style, right?" kind of way. Like, it's a terrible soap opera, but it's my terrible soap opera. It has charm in spite of itself.
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Sep 7, 2017 13:45
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TenCentFang posted:We don't see or really get details on how he handles it afterwards. My rationalization is that he "reformed" the system, but with so little details, I can't effectively argue against Burkion's very well presented and intelligent points. I just loving love Gaim, man, so much. Crazy to think it was in 2013, feels like the experience of watching it was yesterday, legit one of my most cherished experiences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiFLxYaeE1M
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Sep 7, 2017 13:49
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I really like the suit design for Kiva but I can't really watch it. Nothing really seems to happen at the start and I got kinda bored of it after a few episodes. But I still really, really like those suits.
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Sep 7, 2017 14:15
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Cernunnos posted:But I still really, really like those suits. Same. Aesthetic is the number one issue for me when it comes to "will I attempt this?", and why I didn't watch Ex-Aid. Listen, I get it, everyone praises Ex-Aid and I'm sure the story and everything is fantastic, but I am neurologically incapable of ignoring the 90s clown vomit character design. If something doesn't look superficially cool to me I'll never be able to get to the non-superficial stuff. TenCentFang fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Sep 7, 2017 |
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Sep 7, 2017 14:27
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