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Can they just, undo this entire patch and go back to the board. It's really, really not great.
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Sep 8, 2017 06:45
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wrong imo
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Sep 8, 2017 07:06
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Yeah, I'm pretty pleased with it overall. Some number tuning in order for some heroes, but the mechanics seem good.
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Sep 8, 2017 07:24
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Can they just, undo this entire patch and go back to the board. It's really, really not great. Give specifics to discuss or go to the whining thread maybe??
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Sep 8, 2017 07:27
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BrianBoitano posted:Give specifics to discuss or go to the whining thread maybe?? Because no one at Blizzard stopped to wonder if this game really needs like a million high damage mages with overloaded kits and hard CC in a game where the tanks actually good against those consist of Anub, Arak, and Anub'arak. Playing any kind of Bruiser is also just way out of the question now so that's cool I guess.
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Sep 8, 2017 07:46
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Using Garry to pick them out and toss them into your mages is a good strat.
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Sep 8, 2017 08:35
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Hot loving drat have I been having the jukes of the century with Haunting Wave today. Somewhere out there is a Garrosh who must have snapped his keyboard in half after the third Groundbreaker in a row missed me by nanoseconds. poo poo feels amazing to pull off. Also: Mind over Matter posted:five fuckuloids from No-Eyes VI
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Sep 8, 2017 08:53
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Because no one at Blizzard stopped to wonder if this game really needs like a million high damage mages with overloaded kits and hard CC in a game where the tanks actually good against those consist of Anub, Arak, and Anub'arak. Playing any kind of Bruiser is also just way out of the question now so that's cool I guess. So KT limiting your hero choices is your concern? Would you like tips or just to vent?
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Sep 8, 2017 09:01
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lucifirius posted:Using Garry to pick them out and toss them into your mages is a good strat. It would be a good strat if Garrosh wasn't first ban material with KT. I'm not enjoying the game either right now, but I'll just take a break until they've sold enough KT bundles, no biggie.
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Sep 8, 2017 09:50
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I'm basically only playing TL with other goons and we're always banning or first picking KTZ, and Garry is never picked for some reason. A good KTZ can keep Garry away as well.
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Sep 8, 2017 11:16
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BrianBoitano posted:Give specifics to discuss or go to the whining thread maybe?? You know how this game has, for years now, had two balance teams? You know, one that makes pretty decent changes and the one that twice reworked ETC and each time he fell off completely afterwards. This patch wasn't made by the former.
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Sep 8, 2017 13:08
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I wonder if Dustin Browder left because of what the game was becoming or if him leaving opened the door for it to turn into this. I mean there were questionable decisions when he was in charge but at least it felt like there was passion behind the game. Also Browder really cared about the ranked modes. Now it just seems like they are content with making QM players and skin addicts happy. Follow the money I guess. I just wish they were a little more serious about growing the game. It could be a great alternative to other mobas if it just had the playerbase in ranked.
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Sep 8, 2017 13:13
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beejay posted:I wonder if Dustin Browder left because of what the game was becoming or if him leaving opened the door for it to turn into this. I mean there were questionable decisions when he was in charge but at least it felt like there was passion behind the game. Also Browder really cared about the ranked modes. Now it just seems like they are content with making QM players and skin addicts happy. Follow the money I guess. I just wish they were a little more serious about growing the game. It could be a great alternative to other mobas if it just had the playerbase in ranked. The game already does have a niche and Blizzard knows what it is because they designed it that way: - Much less complicated than League of Legends - Extremely less complicated than DOTA 2 - Faster matches on average than either - Easy to pick up and play for casual QM players who like skins
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Sep 8, 2017 15:13
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beejay posted:Now it just seems like they are content with making QM players and skin addicts happy. Follow the money I guess. I spent like $35 on the skins for Jaina, Sonya, and Zagara, even though I really only wanted the Sonya skins, and I've given up on ranked play because I'll never get out of Silver. Checks out.
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Sep 8, 2017 15:27
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Honestly the game is really fun. The only open question that concerns me is what's happening to supports. Ideally supports would be 1-ofs but would have as much utility/ability to macro as rehgar so that I can stand playing them. But if they're too good they become 2-ofs and double support is boring. I think there's too much of a focus on burst healing tbh. Supports are worth having around so that teams have the sustain to push after a team fight on maps like Haunted Mines, but they shouldn't have so much utility in team fights that running two is an advantage.
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Sep 8, 2017 16:18
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The game itself can be fun but in my opinion ranked is an insane tire fire at all levels of play and quick match is pointless because there's no sense of progression or achievement and lacks strategy in team composition or planning for a predetermined map or counters due to not having a draft. I played a ridiculous amount of quick match before ranked was introduced to the game and I got 2 and a half years out of ranked before completely burning out so I can't call it a failure but I can say I haven't had very much fun for at least a year and I'm not sure why I kept playing. I don't know what they need to do to "fix" ranked but if they just keep rolling as is it's going to continue losing playerbase and as a result become worse.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:13
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TL is really fun. They should keep cranking up the rewards on that.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:17
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Ehhh maybe. To be honest I have barely tried TL but I always see screenshots and streamers waiting in hour+ queues and then they get in a game and it's like 2 bronze, 2 silver, 1 master vs 5 grandmasters and that seems not good. Also my friends quit this game a long time ago and joining random people to play team league seems like hero league but worse. In terms of supports, it was a mistake from the beginning to make healer archetypes in a moba and runs against the same problems that healers have in MMOs. Not many people want to play them and they get a lot of pressure/blame for the team's failures. Supports should have been utility characters.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:22
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appropriatemetaphor posted:What're your impressions on his build options? Like aa vs wraithwalk or whatever. His build options have some good choices, its just dwarfed by talents he used to have that helped mitigate damage and wasn't as reliant on hitting bad touch or keeping people in it. armor shreds also really destroy him too easily. It looked like a good rework on paper, but it just doesn't work without a dedicated healer
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Sep 8, 2017 17:31
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I love the updated Jaina and the Theramore Jaina skin's shining staff once you complete the quest. Or is it every skin now?
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Sep 8, 2017 17:57
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Reverend Dr posted:You know how this game has, for years now, had two balance teams? You know, one that makes pretty decent changes and the one that twice reworked ETC and each time he fell off completely afterwards. This patch wasn't made by the former. BrianBoitano posted:Give specifics to discuss or go to the whining thread maybe??
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Sep 8, 2017 18:10
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beejay posted:Ehhh maybe. To be honest I have barely tried TL but I always see screenshots and streamers waiting in hour+ queues and then they get in a game and it's like 2 bronze, 2 silver, 1 master vs 5 grandmasters and that seems not good. Also my friends quit this game a long time ago and joining random people to play team league seems like hero league but worse. Longest queue I've had recently was ~15 minutes and that was 9 AM. In my experience, most* 3-stack queues are 1 minute during prime time (5 PM EST - 1 AM), ~3 minutes during slightly off time (11 AM - 5 PM and 1 AM - 4 AM, ~6 minutes otherwise. 2-stack is up to 3x longer than that, and 5-stack is sometimes instant sometimes 2x longer than 3-stack. * Weekday queues, around plat 5. I'm sure it's even shorter for silver and gold (larger % of population) but it could be longer for plat 2+ as the playerbase shrinks. On the weekend, expect shorter queues and prime time lasts longer. I play with ~30% goons and ~70% randos from /join Team League and /join TeamLeague, and it's probably 1/8 groups that has a shitter, which in my experience is way better than the ~1/2 of times in HL. Get Discord and
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Sep 8, 2017 18:20
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The thing that keeps kicking my rear end about the design of this game is that:
Why is this game in basically maintenance mode on the design side?
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Sep 8, 2017 18:30
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Also, Jim loving Raynor.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:31
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A hotfix is live now.quote:Lt. Morales: Fixed an issue that could allow the Lt. Morales player to issue Move Commands to an active Medivac under certain circumstances. RIP https://clips.twitch.tv/TacitSpeedyDonutRaccAttack
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Sep 8, 2017 18:33
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I don't understand those complaints... generic talents don't matter because it's not like Tyrael suddenly plays like Kerrigan because they share a talent. There are probably already too many quests, and regen globe talents seem fine (why are they awful?) Like these are very common complaints on reddit, I just don't understand how those things make the game worse.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:35
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Truly the darkest timeline.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:35
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Generic talents are a problem, not just because they dilute the uniqueness of the heroes, but because most of them are just lazy design. D3 witch doctor has an escape skill. Why generic ice block instead of a variant of their existing skill for Nazeebo? Seasoned Marksmen is basically adding creep farming back in for carries WHICH IS COUNTER TO THE ENTIRE DESIGN PARADIGM OF THIS GAME. Regen globe talents are awful design because they usually shore up something like a design flaw in Mana Regen and they are basically useless/mandatory based on map, which cuts off a lot of design space. Every hero should have quests and they should have at least 1 at level 1 through talent or baked in. It's a signature part of the game and the characters that don't have them feel a lot more boring and samey because you aren't working towards anything. Also, they help define proper scaling, which is something that does need some looking at across the board.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:42
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Rehgar and Li Ming are like the most beloved characters in the game and they have zero quests (i guess li ming has a regen quest?) I totally disagree on flavor, but I guess that's a question of opinion. I'm also not familiar with which regen quests are mandatory but you could say that almost all talents are situationally mandatory. Even carries have to wave clear in this game... it's part of why valla and greymane are so good. Actually everyone contributing to macro is a huge part of the game's design paradigm so I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:51
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Please don't point at known fundamentally broken hero Greymane to try and validate your design theories.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:52
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appropriatemetaphor posted:What're your impressions on his build options? Like aa vs wraithwalk or whatever. Here's my current breakdown of the talents: Level 1 - Mostly preference. Generally I think you should go Fealty if you're solo/duo laning and Consume Vitality if you're in a in a lane with three or more. Consume Vitality is obviously going to be stronger teamfights so you'll want to keep that in mind. Ossein Renewal is good medium between Fealty and Consume Vitality but I would only think about taking it on maps with lots of regen globes. Level 4 - If you went Consume Vitality at level 1 then Ghastly Reach is an option here. Otherwise I would always go Paralyzing Rage since Leroic is so starved in terms of CC and I believe much of the benefit that Ghastly Reach provides can be made up for by good positioning and timing. Icy Veins seems to like Kneel Peasants but i think its pretty worthless since the cleave on your auto attacks and 14 second cooldown means you should almost never want to use Skeletal Swing on minions or mercs unless there's an enemy hero standing right next to them. Level 7 - Preference. I think all of the choices in this tier have merit. Willing Vessel is the obvious choice if you're the only tank or just taking a ton of damage (although 5% extra healing with the possibility of 10% is sort of underwhelming). Drain Momentum is my least favorite skill here but I think some people will really like it depending on playstyle. Hopelessness affords you more positioning freedom during fights and stops tanks like Muradin, Chen, Artanis, or ETC (as well as some assassins) from easily exiting your Drain Hope radius. Level 10 - Preference or team composition based. I'm one of those weirdos who loved March even before the rework so with new March being stupidly good I don't see a whole lot of reason to go Entomb unless I have a team comp specifically tailored for it. Level 13 - Not much reason in my mind to pick anything but Ominous Wraith here. This one talent gives an upgrade on par with heroic abilities to an already great utility skill. The fact that you have to pass through enemies with a super speedy unstoppable ghost is pretty inconsequential. If you have to go something else for whatever reason, Hardened Bones is probably a better option than Unyielding Despair. 4 seconds of conditional cooldown reduction on an 11 second skill is not very good when compared to 20% damage reduction for up to 7 seconds. Level 16 - Royal Focus has great synergy with Ominous Wraith so you're probably just going to want to go with that unless they have a super tanky team or you're constantly having to fight off split pushers. Level 20 - Still haven't played around with all of these yet, but Death March has become my favorite here over the new nerfed Spectral Leech unless I took Mithril Mace at 16. Seebach posted:His build options have some good choices, its just dwarfed by talents he used to have that helped mitigate damage and wasn't as reliant on hitting bad touch or keeping people in it. I'm kind of surprised you feel like this. Leoric's health regen post rework definitely seems different but I went and looked at self-healing numbers before and after and I'm still getting on average around 40k per 15-20 min match. Loss of the Reanimation talent does suck though for helping keep you topped up in between fights, same with consume vitality not working on minions (although this wasn't a very popular talent). BattleHamster fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 19:12
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Toshimo posted:Please don't point at known fundamentally broken hero Greymane to try and validate your design theories. Greymane owns
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Sep 8, 2017 19:39
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Toshimo posted:The thing that keeps kicking my rear end about the design of this game is that: It'd be nice if they made flavor updates to generic talents but the mechanics of them are fine. Just lol that the only hero that still has MULE is a Zerg It's loving hilarious that you said quests are a core differentiation AND you say that game is in maintenance mode. Quests in their current form are about a year old, and they're being added literally every other patch. Clearly, they did a good job implementing quests if you think they're so important, and that's not just maintenance mode. Actually, what would NOT being in "maintenance mode" entail? Too many changes at once would throw balance into disarray, yeah?
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Sep 8, 2017 20:01
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2017 will be the year of the support* *We nerfed most of the supports now** **Rehgar is next because he's now by far the best support since he wasn't nerfed recently and still has cleanse
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Sep 8, 2017 20:07
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Xul, Valeera, and Tychus on sale next week. Good sale.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:12
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Midnightghoul posted:2017 will be the year of the support* Support Heroes released by year: Launch (4 out of 22) Malfurion Tassadar Tyrande Uther 2014 (3 out of 10) Brightwing Li Li Rehgar 2015 (2 out of 12) Kharazim Lt. Morales 2016 (1 out of 16) Auriel 2017 (2 or 4 out of 11 (or 15, including all the leaks)) Lucio Stukov Ana Alexstrasza So, I mean, it's the most supports we've had in a year since 2014... Dietrich fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 20:39
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Orange Crush Rush posted:Because no one at Blizzard stopped to wonder if this game really needs like a million high damage mages with overloaded kits and hard CC in a game where the tanks actually good against those consist of Anub, Arak, and Anub'arak. Playing any kind of Bruiser is also just way out of the question now so that's cool I guess. As someone who just got out of the competitive scene, I can guarantee you that's extremely, super-duper not true. Anub'arak is good against mages because of his innate spell armor but he's not the only option, nor is he the best option. His health pool is really low for a tank and he has no notable sustain outside of Regen Master and Locust Swarm, so you can burst him down pretty well (even as a mage). He's basically unstoppable in the hands of a pro, but considering how you're bitching I have doubts that what the pros do matters to you. Artanis is an amazing bruiser against mages because of several factors - his shield trait, his swapping (and therefore ability to get picks), his damage output. Very few mages (Kel'thuzad included!) can handle Artanis beating the poo poo out of them. Factoring in talents brings up the amazing Phase Bulwark, which farts out 40 Spell damage for Artanis whenever his shields are active, meaning that he's going to be able to shrug off followup attacks to the initial burst with ease. Granted, you have to wait until 13 to pick it up, but it's still amazing. Arthas is an anti-melee bruiser because of his aura, but he's still got some pretty appreciable hops when it comes to mages. His roots are good for keeping people in place and he can self-heal with his Q to shrug off bursts. Hell, if you manage to hit 20, he can outright ignore and even heal from spell damage, something that no other tank can do. Chen is fat, nearly impossible to kill in the hands of someone competent, and deals pretty good damage to squishy targets. He can also pick up a talent at Level 1 that gives him 30 Spell Armor while he's guzzling Brew because he doesn't give a poo poo about thinks like magic when he's drunk. Using Chen aggressively and blocking skillshots with your fat panda body will gently caress up mages like you would not believe. Cho is probably the worst anti-mage tank just because teams tend to focus the hell out of him whenever he dives in, but in terms of design he's fine. It's not hard in theory to dive into a team and let Gall do the work he was intended to do. Dehaka has all kinds of tools to poo poo on mages. He's super gank-friendly, his trait allows him to pull an enormous amount of healing out of his rear end, he can Burrow to dodge super damaging attacks, Isolation works wonders if you manage to land it, and he's got a Level 1 talent that gives him 40 Spell Armor while his W is active. Diablo is good because he's Diablo. If played properly, he's arguably the best tank in the game right now because of all of the things he can do at once - huge health pool, good initiation, good wombo potential, lots of chain-stunning, good sources of armor, so on and so forth. D.Va is loving great. Good mobility in a teamfight, the Defense Matrix shuts down ALL forms of damage, she's got great Heroics at her disposal, and the Emergency Shielding Talent at 13 makes her extremely difficult to put down. ETC is in a terrible place right now and isn't really good for anything outside of Mosh Pit wombos. Garrosh is like an easier to play Diablo with less potential to be completely overwhelming. Also he gets huge amounts of armor, meaning that burst matters less and less against him. Johanna is easily one of the most durable tanks in the game and is overflowing with CC. She doesn't have Spell Shield like she used to, but you can easily build her into a tank that can absorb an unreal amount of punishment and shrug off all forms of CC thanks to her trait. Leoric is a pretty good bruiser with a preference for meaty targets. I wouldn't put him against bursty mages specifically, but he's got excellent waveclear and can easily take over the solo lane. Muradin is the jack of all trades. He's not fantastic at dealing with mages, but he's not terrible either. Rexxar is gimmicky and amazing on Braxis Holdout but I haven't seen him perform well on normal maps. On the upside, Misha eats Skillshots like a champ. Sonya, like Leoric, is a fantastic solo laner. Unlike Leoric, she can get into a mage's business and kill them very easily. Stitches is like Chen: he's fat and he doesn't give a poo poo. Unlike Chen, Stitches can get picks from a huge range thanks to his Hook, meaning that he's absolutely meta-tastic. Also Gorge completely removes an enemy hero from the fight, which is pretty loving huge all things considered. Tyreal is in a weird spot. The pros love him, but his kit is awkward as gently caress and his talent diversity is terrible. Varian is really good and for how easy/flexible he is. As a tank, he gets passive armor, Protection for years, and a Taunt that can one-click lock down any given target into doing nothing useful (good for....... wait for it................... bursty mages!!!) Zarya is in a VERY strange spot. Most bruisers can solo very easily, and Zarya just... can't. She's a strange bruiser/support hybrid. But hey, that shield? That's super great for blocking burst damage and then taking the resulting charge from that shield and using it to cook people. Also her grenades are good for poking (something that bursty mages tend to not handle well) and her Gravitron Charge is great for making sure that yonder bursty mage doesn't go anywhere so the team can loving murder them. So out of those tanks, I'd say that Cho, ETC, Rexxar, and Zarya are uncommon picks, and a whopping two of them (ETC and Arthas (until he hits 20)) have nothing super special to offer against a team that has a bursty mage. Practice more and bitch less and you'll see an improvement.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:28
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I see ETC used and prioritized a lot by pros though. Is there a reason why? And it's not just mosh pit womboes, they also use him for stage dive.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:07
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Really good initiation and peeling make him the ideal second tank to pair up with someone who has neither. If you get Uther, divine shield will guarantee Mosh Pit which if placed well can just win the game in a single team fight.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:14
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Stage Dive ETCs perform well in pro games because being able to pull a tank out of nowhere on an isolated enemy means that you're practically guaranteed to get that kill. Stage Dive also means you can put a tank on top of an ally getting ganked, something that can save them from dying and missing soak. ETC's problem is that he's only useful for advanced strategies with very experienced and coordinated players. Pretty much every other tank can do what he does in one way or another, and unless you're trying to do something very specific (like the stuff Shabadu pointed out) you're straight up better off taking pretty much any other Warrior.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:31
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