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Fil5000 posted:Their Elo (no capitals as it's not an acronym) implementation before didn't really work - largely because Elo wasn't especially intended for anything other than 1v1 matchups, and in a 12v12 game of MWO individual player contribution is generally quite limited so it's easy for a bad player to get repeatedly carried to victory or for a good player to get dragged down the rankings. There's stuff like TrueSkill but I've no idea how well that works. TrueSkill sounds like "Elo but for more players". I guess that's what we're really talking about when referring to Elo: Use wins/losses as the signal and a fairly simple formula to distribute points so weak players stand to gain more against strong players, or lose less. If you want to make the game more fun to play and avoid pushing people into bad streaks etc. I think the magic sauce should be in the matchmaking, which has to deal with a whole bunch of factors anyway. Maybe also have a commendations system and make the matchmaking algorithm slightly biased in favor of matching up people who enjoyed playing together (but still respect the limitations imposed by ranking and tonnage).
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Sep 8, 2017 13:04
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TjyvTompa posted:The problem with using purely wins/losses for the rating is that that's pretty much how it works today. You could be the worst pilot in the game, but as long as you drop with good people and you win your rating will increase. Then when you solo drop you will be like Tier 2/1 but in reality be a really bad player because you usually "get carried". Is there some reason this doesn't even out over time, though? Like if all things are equal you have a 50/50 chance of a win. Sure, for a single game they aren't, but over time that's what you approach. And if you're consistently bad, your chances are slightly less than that (1/12 means you contribute about 8%).
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Sep 8, 2017 13:09
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RIP Syndrome posted:TrueSkill sounds like "Elo but for more players". I guess that's what we're really talking about when referring to Elo: Use wins/losses as the signal and a fairly simple formula to distribute points so weak players stand to gain more against strong players, or lose less. Yeah, but the matchmaking lives or dies by how you've rated the players in the first place, so you can't decouple the two. I also don't know if the MWO player base is big enough to support matchmaking more complex than what they currently have in any event. Also, you didn't even pick VX-4 for engineering so I don't even want to DO this with you.
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Sep 8, 2017 13:15
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Fil5000 posted:Yeah, but the matchmaking lives or dies by how you've rated the players in the first place, so you can't decouple the two. I also don't know if the MWO player base is big enough to support matchmaking more complex than what they currently have in any event. It's a good point and kind of the elephant in the room, I guess. There aren't enough players to support a smooth distribution of anything, so they have to resort to special-casing and hacks to keep the remaining players happy. Fil5000 posted:Also, you didn't even pick VX-4 for engineering so I don't even want to DO this with you. Vaccdroids taking our jobs? Not on MY ship!
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Sep 8, 2017 13:31
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RIP Syndrome posted:Is there some reason this doesn't even out over time, though? Like if all things are equal you have a 50/50 chance of a win. Sure, for a single game they aren't, but over time that's what you approach. And if you're consistently bad, your chances are slightly less than that (1/12 means you contribute about 8%). If all you play is solo then yes, it will average out over time. The mess happens when people drop with friends, which they do. I've done stupid things, died first, but still got a skill increase because my friends managed to secure the victory, no thanks to me. This is the problem I think. And since it is easier to gain tier rating than lose it (to lose tier rating you have to lose the game AND do terrible, to gain rating all you have to do is either a lot of damage (on a loss) or very little damage and win the match) it gives way to a "tier creep". I can tell you right now, if there was a "true" skill system in MWO I would not be maxed out Tier 1. Comparing myself to other players it is clear that all my time in this game has not resulted in the same amount of real skill increase since there are people that have played the game for much shorter than me that are very much better than me. People that not only are purely better at aiming but they are also better at reading the map, the enemy position and have higher situational awareness. It feels disingenuous to see that maxed out Tier 1 bar when I drop out of a game after making terrible choices and dying quickly due to my mistakes, it's like it is mocking me.
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Sep 8, 2017 13:51
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TjyvTompa posted:If all you play is solo then yes, it will average out over time. The mess happens when people drop with friends, which they do. I've done stupid things, died first, but still got a skill increase because my friends managed to secure the victory, no thanks to me. This is the problem I think. And since it is easier to gain tier rating than lose it (to lose tier rating you have to lose the game AND do terrible, to gain rating all you have to do is either a lot of damage (on a loss) or very little damage and win the match) it gives way to a "tier creep". I think it's a given that group players have advantages over solos. Dunno what you could do about that, if anything. For solos it should still even out, since you're as likely to drop with a group on your team as on the opposing team (it's one of those things that only work if there are enough players for multiple fair solutions to the jigsaw puzzle, though, which we've established there isn't, and that's where 10-game win/lose streaks come from). One thing that could be fixed is the way everyone gravitates towards the top ranking now (which, as you point out, further hurts matchmaking), vs. towards their natural ranking in a self-correcting Elo-like system.
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Sep 8, 2017 14:11
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They could look at your effect on your friends' winrates, similar to the with-or-without-you stats from hockey. They could also compare your performance in a mech or weight of mech against the historical average in various categories. Both of those would probably be a better indicator than the tier system they have now, but 
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Sep 8, 2017 14:31
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You have to be window licking retarded to be tier 5. An example of that type of player would be someone that brings a 2x LRM 10/2x small laser Stalker with 25 tons of ammo, and then proceeds to shoot 90% of his shots into walls. Funny enough, those people do exist and in force no less. It's at least 50% of the playerbase.
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Sep 8, 2017 14:42
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johntherussian posted:You have to be window licking retarded to be tier 5. An example of that type of player would be someone that brings a 2x LRM 10/2x small laser Stalker with 25 tons of ammo, and then proceeds to shoot 90% of his shots into walls. Funny enough, those people do exist and in force no less. It's at least 50% of the playerbase. Unless they've changed it drastically, the only way to lose rating/tier levels is to consistently lose and lose BADLY.  Oh holy gently caress I forgot how awful Paul's graph is for this. What on earth is it trying to convey? Why is "largest drop" smaller than "medium drop" and why is "no change" the biggest one? Also there's a multiplier on your first few matches so you gain pilot rating faster and move up the tiers quicker. Yes, shove those lucky new players into more difficult games quicker! http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/210140-some-clarification-about-tiers-and-psr/
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Sep 8, 2017 14:50
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That chart is indeed extremely lol. Check out the notch spacing on the vertical axis too.
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Sep 8, 2017 15:26
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Paul-graphics of the workings of his mind are like a PowerPoint salad.
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Sep 8, 2017 15:28
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Now what constitutes a low/med/high match score? It scales with weight chassis so I don't understand why he couldn't have just put the numbers in there.  ninja e: Nevermind, they don't know their own game so how would they know? 
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Sep 8, 2017 17:29
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Jesus that "chart" is just.... So very appropriate for this terrible game and these terribad devs.
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Sep 8, 2017 17:59
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Not defending PGI's terrible ranking algorithm, but those of you who say "well you just do x, this is an easy problem to fix" are nuts. There are a lot of very large companies with very large amounts of money and skilled personnel who cannot solve this problem effectively. Microsoft hasn't really managed it for their online matchmaking. Riot games and Valve haven't pulled it off. This is not an easy problem to solve; PGI has done an exceptionally bad job, but I am suspicious that "just going back to Elo" would make everything better. Elo and systems like it do work very well for what they were designed for, which is either for individual competitions like chess where there are no outside variables in a match and each match is 1v1, or for small fixed teams where the roster doesn't change, and again, there are no outside variables per-match. It also takes quite a few matches to accurately start generating results, which is why chess rankings are provisional for months before they are final. As tough as this problem is though, PGI is delusional for refusing to acknowledge that the system isn't working. The huge glut of top-tier t1 players should be indication of that on its own.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:39
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As I said, matchmaking is a tough problem due to all the variables (and the need for it to happen quickly). So I didn't mean to imply it was easy, just pointing out a couple of issues and a direction to move in to maybe start solving them. And the biggest issue for me is that I think there are playstyles that would be more fun/helpful to the team if you didn't get punished for it as an individual by the scoring system. I agree that PGI hasn't done a great job, but I don't want to be too hard on them either, since a lot of work goes into it and gamers are probably one of the most demoralizing audiences to make stuff for
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Sep 8, 2017 20:16
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Oh, and another thing... Just how do you figure those AC/20 shells make it from inside my mech's skinny legs, across the exposed hip joints and into the arm cannons?
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Sep 8, 2017 20:20
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RIP Syndrome posted:Oh, and another thing... Just how do you figure those AC/20 shells make it from inside my mech's skinny legs, across the exposed hip joints and into the arm cannons? There isn't a single `Mech that has leg-mounted ammo in canon, that you can do it is a game-ism. A pity the Cicada didn't keep its leg-mounted machine guns.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:26
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PoptartsNinja posted:There isn't a single `Mech that has leg-mounted ammo in canon, that you can do it is a game-ism. My only mech interactions have been through the video games, so canon is extremely vague to me, but hell,  on the leg guns.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:44
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I was hoping for VTR-A machineguns when the Victor was announced years ago, but was cut down then too.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:01
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Considering how small the player base is these days, and how incompetent is, the xp bar for tier is probably the best we can hope for. It tends to keep people that have played for a while and generally have half a clue away from clubbing seals. To do that, you have to make a new account and play trial mechs. Which honestly, even using trial mechs most people with half a clue can dig out of tier 5 in a weekend.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:51
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PoptartsNinja posted:There isn't a single `Mech that has leg-mounted ammo in canon, that you can do it is a game-ism. this isn't true. in fact, the targe is infamous for being a death trap because it has leg ammo and MASC. i was just looking at a canon nighthawk (so a FASA design, even) with arrow IV ammo - giant artillery rockets - stored in the legs.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:24
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I am one of those people 'stuck' in middle tiers. I couldn't tell you exactly how, but there's probably a few factors. 1. I spent a lot of time mastering terrible mechs, like the awesome, trying to find non-meta builds 2. The Atlas. Playing this mech in pub queue is like flipping a coin. Heads, you successfully wrangle your team into a charge, and gain no MMR by dying first, even with a win. Tails, things go tits-up, nobody follows direction, and you lose a ton of MMR. 3. Playing in middle tiers places you with some really poo poo players. I've had what I thought were fantastic games where I contribute >50% of the damage and end up still losing horribly. (That mentioned 25-tons of ammo LRM stalker comes to mind) 4. Not actually playing enough to make up for the losses or zero-gain matches. Stealthedit: 5. Playing a variety of mechs. I'm sure if I played 99% of my games with my laservom hellbringer things would be different. It seems like every time I play, no matter how well I play, if it's solo in the pub queue, very few matches end up with a gain. I'm somewhere around 80% to tier2 (in tier3) playing this game since closed beta. Herb Dington fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 23:27
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Speaking of laservom Hellbringers, this 2xHLL 4x CERML build is fantastic. 64 dmg alpha out to 500ish meters on a 65 tonner with ecm that goes 81kph. It's real hot but I can alpha twice without shutting down. Also since this is the loyalty +30%cb variant it makes stupid cbills whilst melting faces off.  
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Sep 9, 2017 00:11
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I'm actually in Tier 5 because my account is broke to hell, and any wins do not add XP. I can string 5-6 wins in a row, be in Top 3 match score, and the XP does not move at all.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:54
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Omar_Comin posted:I'm actually in Tier 5 because my account is broke to hell, and any wins do not add XP. I can string 5-6 wins in a row, be in Top 3 match score, and the XP does not move at all. My tier xp bar remains perpetually stuck at about 80% to tier 3 and hadn't moved in years
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Sep 9, 2017 01:33
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Herb Dington posted:I am one of those people 'stuck' in middle tiers. I couldn't tell you exactly how, but there's probably a few factors. These are seriously some shameful excuses.
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Sep 9, 2017 11:59
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Yeah, I'd agree the atlas is a coin flip but not usually between lose mmr and no change. If you're not making GBS threads out a ton of damage in an atlas you're really doing it wrong. I only dip in now and again these days and my - S with AC/20 and SRMs always gets me more kills and damage than anything else.
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Sep 9, 2017 14:24
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Your pilot "skill" rating goes up over time no matter what mech you're in so long as you're consistently at least dead average. If it's stuck or going down then it's not the mech.
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Sep 9, 2017 14:52
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I am loving the change to the solo queue. Dogs of the PGI, time they made a (good) move. In 6 games I've only been hit by an airstrike once. ONCE! There has been at least 4 people on voice com in every game so far, it's like a whole new game. Or I've just been seriously lucky so far....
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Sep 9, 2017 19:05
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DancingShade posted:Your pilot "skill" rating goes up over time no matter what mech you're in so long as you're consistently at least dead average. though I don't play any more i've been tier 4 basically forever. I'm pretty bad, I guess, though I have the occasional good light game
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Sep 10, 2017 06:37
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sebmojo posted:though I don't play any more i've been tier 4 basically forever. I'm pretty bad, I guess, though I have the occasional good light game I did a few yoloqueue games tonight and it does feel a little better. Although, being just just a pixel from tier 1 there were still a couple games filled with lrm sockfuckers.
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Sep 10, 2017 06:39
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veedubfreak posted:I did a few yoloqueue games tonight and it does feel a little better. Although, being just just a pixel from tier 1 there were still a couple games filled with lrm sockfuckers. Even LRM sockfuckers can reach tier 1, especially if they actually know how to use LRMs and a mixed loadout properly. It's just that if you can figure out how to LRM properly you can also figure out autocannons and basically that's where you go instead since they work great delivering hugs at any range.
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Sep 10, 2017 07:05
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Pretty sure the matchmaker doesn't care if you're a pixel away from tier 1 or tier 3, it counts you as t2 either way.
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Sep 10, 2017 08:48
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aniviron posted:Pretty sure the matchmaker doesn't care if you're a pixel away from tier 1 or tier 3, it counts you as t2 either way. Yes i know this. I just cant deal with playing games where my team is too timid to push while getting poo poo on by the other teams 4 lrm boats because I had the audacity to move forward on polar. This game is still garbage.
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Sep 10, 2017 08:51
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If you're doing anything but suicide charging on polar you're playing that map wrong. gently caress polar.
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Sep 10, 2017 14:54
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Been having good fun with warhammer AC20 + 2 snub ppcs. Pinpoint alpha, reasonably cool, steals kills wonderfully
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Sep 10, 2017 15:27
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DancingShade posted:Your pilot "skill" rating goes up over time no matter what mech you're in so long as you're consistently at least dead average. PGI is a good company that makes good game systems that work good
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Sep 10, 2017 20:29
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Herb Dington posted:PGI is a good company that makes good game systems that work good The main complaint about the current tier system is that it tiers you up no matter your skill, it is like an xp bar. In comes you admitting that you do not tier up, you must be some special kind of bad.
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Sep 11, 2017 08:06
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TjyvTompa posted:The main complaint about the current tier system is that it tiers you up no matter your skill, it is like an xp bar. In comes you admitting that you do not tier up, you must be some special kind of bad. You're right but they've been saying their accounts are outright broken and it doesn't work/progress for them. Which I can believe might be a thing.
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Sep 11, 2017 09:37
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DancingShade posted:You're right but they've been saying their accounts are outright broken and it doesn't work/progress for them. Which I can believe might be a thing. That was hexenritter and omar comin. This was they guy that said he is low tier because he only plays bad mechs, getting matched with bad people, not playing enough, using an atlas et.c.
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Sep 11, 2017 10:01
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