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Well, crap guys! No point in laying it all out if you're going to do it for me, and say all I would have said! Anyway, it looks like Ziege is laying out all the points that have been discussed, and quite expertly (even if s/he is saying that they called some things I distinctly remember calling first, sir/madam  ), and the only real thing I have to add to her list is:ZiegeDame posted:Beato killed them (to rescue them from Eva's torture?). There is a more parsimonious explanation, given that Yasu has to be in hiding (due to being thought of as dead and all): Eva comes to Rosa in the garden, presumably to withdraw her deal, there's a tussle, Eva pushes Rosa, who falls on a fence and dies. Maria freaks out, and Eva strangles her to shut her up/remove witnesses. No Beato required. But I'll endorse everything else you've said... which just leaves the ending question, about this "promised reaper" which comes before Beato wanted, even if she was supposed to be dead at the time, as Battler found her body (the final conversation being a flourish based on Battler going over things in his mind). First time the 4th episode ended, I didn't want to say it was a bomb, but... that was before I knew about the WWII base, which this last episode confirmed as real, and not just some bullshit Kinzo made up to secure his legend. An army base means munitions, potentially lots of them, even more if you count the sub (did the sub sink? I don't recall that it did), which even if old, would still work if kept in an appropriate place. And all this talk of "trusting yourself to the roulette" Clair made at the end makes me think that there was a way to control it... but how? And how did they know the stuff was even usable after 40 years?
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Sep 8, 2017 21:26
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That ending was really sweet. So what questions are left for episode 8? It seems like we're all wading into particulars again, but that doesn't seem like something the game is really all that interested in. Could 8 be the HOT SPRINGS EPISODE I've been waiting for? Or equally unlikely, somewhere in there is the truth of what happened that weekend. Ange's story seems unresolved so hopefully we'll see more of her. I just want her to be happy, to take the money and move to Wales 
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Sep 8, 2017 21:30
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idonotlikepeas posted:Because they're the real killers. That's been my theory for a bit now, mainly based on how Eva treats Ange. Someone brought up the idea that Ange might have been poisoned in the last thread, I think. I didn't believe it then, but under the current circumstances it seems very reasonable. Also I'm problematic because I keep defaulting to the feminine for Yasu. 
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Sep 8, 2017 21:37
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resurgam40 posted:Well, crap guys! No point in laying it all out if you're going to do it for me, and say all I would have said! Anyway, it looks like Ziege is laying out all the points that have been discussed, and quite expertly (even if s/he is saying that they called some things I distinctly remember calling first, sir/madam Hey, I never said I was the only one who called it. Just because I was burning through EP 4 in the locked thread when you were all starting EP 5 doesn't mean I didn't do my own reasoning. quote:There is a more parsimonious explanation, given that Yasu has to be in hiding (due to being thought of as dead and all): Eva comes to Rosa in the garden, presumably to withdraw her deal, there's a tussle, Eva pushes Rosa, who falls on a fence and dies. Maria freaks out, and Eva strangles her to shut her up/remove witnesses. No Beato required. But their final moments as told is Beato doing the killing, not Eva. quote:But I'll endorse everything else you've said... which just leaves the ending question, about this "promised reaper" which comes before Beato wanted, even if she was supposed to be dead at the time, as Battler found her body (the final conversation being a flourish based on Battler going over things in his mind). First time the 4th episode ended, I didn't want to say it was a bomb, but... that was before I knew about the WWII base, which this last episode confirmed as real, and not just some bullshit Kinzo made up to secure his legend. An army base means munitions, potentially lots of them, even more if you count the sub (did the sub sink? I don't recall that it did), which even if old, would still work if kept in an appropriate place. And all this talk of "trusting yourself to the roulette" Clair made at the end makes me think that there was a way to control it... but how? And how did they know the stuff was even usable after 40 years?
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Sep 8, 2017 21:48
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Zakrelo posted:Edit: While looking for red truths relating to the chapel, I stumbled onto this great image. this is secretly the best line in umineko and i'm glad everyone can now understand why
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Sep 8, 2017 21:51
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Also pretty sure that part of why Battler returning made the crime happen is because since Yasu compartmentalized her love for Battler to Beatrice, when he came back so suddenly it meant Beatrice suddenly had the motivational force to 'win the duel' in Yasu's heart, or something. So a year later, Shannon would have 'already won'. A year earlier and... idk, Yasu wouldn't be so hosed up emotionally and ready to murder? But what if there's a second reason, like, um... relating to Rudolf and Kyrie? Not that Battler is conspiring with them to commit crimes, but that Battler returning acted as a catalyst for those two, as well? We know Kyrie is probably Battler's mom but doesn't know this and secretly resents him, so him returning might make her more aggro, and it's heavily implied that Rudolf was intending to take those two aside at some part during the conference to reveal the probable maternal deception to them. But we also know Battler's return was somewhat short notice even for those two, so it might have forced them to move ahead any plans they had regarding, uh, murder. Rudolf might even see that as getting a new start with his family (Battler, Kyrie, Ange) without the rest of his family holding him back. I don't think Rudolf and Kyrie would resort to murder if they could successfully blackmail and threaten their way to a chunk of the fortune without it. But we've seen time and time again that doesn't really work, because as soon as the fortune is actually found and the island is closed off, murder is suddenly a much more viable option for everyone, and coming to an agreement that leaves everyone even partially satisfied is a lot less likely, and it was pretty improbable to begin with. Sure, they suddenly have the money to resolve everyone's debts and make them rich for life on top of that, but... So, Kinzo's backstory with the initial massacre is imo about how pre-existing animosity and distrust is amplified when outside contact is cut off and a complicating, heavily desired factor such as the gold is introduced. That went down a lot more heavily along national lines, and then as things progressed at least one person decided gently caress it, he was going to take it all for himself and murder any other survivor. But there's a lot of similarities to the situation in 1986 emotionally, I think, where the Ushiromiya children (Rudolf, Krauss, Eva, Rosa) are nominally allies, but they've all got deep distrust and even in some cases hatred for each other. They're able to work together as long as that's the only option presented to them, but the storm and the gold turn an already emotionally bad situation into an explosion. Still, it seems not just possible but heavily probable to me that Kyrie and Rudolf had several plans for what to do over the conference, and the circumstances we know Yasu set up to amplify tensions combined with the reveal of the gold and the extra pressure of Battler being there could have tipped them over into a homicidal boil earlier than anyone else. So... Battler being there could have made the crime happen because of his emotional impact on Kyrie and Rudolf as well as on Yasu, but only if Kyrie and Rudolf are actually the culprits. If that makes sense.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:15
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ZiegeDame posted:But their final moments as told is Beato doing the killing, not Eva. I strongly suspect that Eva had already injured Rosa so badly that Beato couldn't save her, and she didn't want Maria to grow up an orphan as she had, so she felt the most merciful thing she could do was kill them both.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:29
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ZiegeDame posted:But their final moments as told is Beato doing the killing, not Eva. You're taking that a bit too literally. Eva killed them first and dead people can't be resurrected as far as I'm aware, and Yasu strangling Maria would be very out of character. That said, EP3 is a bit of a mess to figure out. Assuming Eva was working alone killing people, that meant that poor Yasu was just stumbling across dead bodies and, luckily, they had been shot in the right spots so Yasu could stake them. For some reason.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:02
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ZiegeDame posted:Well that's still the question, isn't it. Unexploded ordinance from the war seems the likely culprit, but what remains unsaid is if Yasu set it up deliberately or if it was an unavoidable accident. I would bet heavily on it being on purpose, and on a timer. That's why we keep seeing images of that clock inching towards midnight. There's probably a way to control it, but it might be some inconvenient nonsense like the epitaph solution, which would mean that after a certain point it would become impossible to disable it even if Yasu were alive. (That is, if it takes half an hour to get to where the timer is and turn it off, and it's only twenty minutes to midnight...) Or, in other words, the solution was really large bombs the whole time. tiistai posted:That said, EP3 is a bit of a mess to figure out. Assuming Eva was working alone killing people, that meant that poor Yasu was just stumbling across dead bodies and, luckily, they had been shot in the right spots so Yasu could stake them. For some reason. It still might have been Eva doing the staking, to make them look like the same person was murdering them. That would let her blame all the deaths on Yasu in the end, assuming she avoided death herself. (But if she had a gun, she might have felt that she could.)
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Sep 8, 2017 23:07
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PetraCore posted:So... Battler being there could have made the crime happen because of his emotional impact on Kyrie and Rudolf as well as on Yasu, but only if Kyrie and Rudolf are actually the culprits. If that makes sense.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:07
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idonotlikepeas posted:It still might have been Eva doing the staking, to make them look like the same person was murdering them. That would let her blame all the deaths on Yasu in the end, assuming she avoided death herself. (But if she had a gun, she might have felt that she could.) Sure, but then Eva must have found the stakes and the ring of the Head somewhere. Were they both conveniently just laying around in the golden land? Can't prove they weren't, I guess.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:15
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All this talk of bombs makes me think that mystery set of numbers (07151129 iirc?) is an (de)activation code. Edit: memorialize Gohda as a demon too, drat it Yasu. You turned the act of someone bullying you into an entire witch, so what about the person who was sometimes an rear end? He just wanted everyone to be proud of his good cooking, but you gave that ability away to Ronove. Yasu pls. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 23:17
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EagerSleeper posted:All this talk of bombs makes me think that mystery set of numbers (07151129 iirc?) is an (de)activation code. That'd be really funny since as far as we know any deactivation/activation code would have been determined in World War II. EDIT: Not dunking on you, I literally think that'd be a hilarious coincidence.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:18
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idonotlikepeas posted:I would bet heavily on it being on purpose, and on a timer. That's why we keep seeing images of that clock inching towards midnight. There's probably a way to control it, but it might be some inconvenient nonsense like the epitaph solution, which would mean that after a certain point it would become impossible to disable it even if Yasu were alive. (That is, if it takes half an hour to get to where the timer is and turn it off, and it's only twenty minutes to midnight...) I keep thinking, how reliable are those munitions, given how one of the big things I hear about people digging around in parts of europe as as those munitions age, the more unstable (and dangerous) they get.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:19
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idonotlikepeas posted:I would bet heavily on it being on purpose, and on a timer. That's why we keep seeing images of that clock inching towards midnight. There's probably a way to control it, but it might be some inconvenient nonsense like the epitaph solution, which would mean that after a certain point it would become impossible to disable it even if Yasu were alive. (That is, if it takes half an hour to get to where the timer is and turn it off, and it's only twenty minutes to midnight...) The whole shrine mirror explosion thing doesn't make sense in regards to what we know now is the actual relationship between Shannon and Beatrice. Unless... it was a bomb test? EDIT: I mean Yasu did SOMETHING to the shrine to make it explode and connected such an act with freeing herself to act on her feelings towards George, so...
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Sep 8, 2017 23:20
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PetraCore posted:That'd be really funny since as far as we know any deactivation/activation code would have been determined in World War II. The stars aligned on just the right way in a special significance to both Yasu and the one they loved most in the world. This significance, being found on a bomb, naturally told Yasu to kill everybody. (Eh, I was thinking that Yasu may have rigged a timer later down the line onto it, since war bombs/torpedos/missiles/etc. don't usually have a deactivation system.  )
EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 23:30
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I just want to say it's really impressive how much of the EP1-4 mysteries you all solved in real time. We had an incredible time watching the thread puzzle through things, so thanks to all of you for being good readers. EagerSleeper posted:Edit: memorialize Gohda as a demon too, drat it Yasu. You turned the act of someone bullying you into an entire witch, so what about the person who was sometimes an rear end? He just wanted everyone to be proud of his good cooking, but you gave that ability away to Ronove. Yasu pls. 
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Sep 8, 2017 23:36
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tiistai posted:Sure, but then Eva must have found the stakes and the ring of the Head somewhere. Were they both conveniently just laying around in the golden land? Can't prove they weren't, I guess. Could have! Where else is Yasu hiding this stuff? People searched various parts of the mansion at different times, and carrying them all the time would be crazy dangerous; it'd make sense for them to hide their murder equipment in a location only they had access to. And that's where Eva "became a witch"; it's easy to imagine her stumbling on this, realizing the killer hid that stuff there, and absconding with it for her own purposes.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:41
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tiistai posted:You're taking that a bit too literally. Eva killed them first and dead people can't be resurrected as far as I'm aware, and Yasu strangling Maria would be very out of character. Ok, but if we just cut out all the resurrections we get: quote:The witch hadn't intended to send Rosa plummeting. But she still wasn't used to using magic. After plummeting about 100 meters into a rose bush, as a very, very natural result, Rosa died instantly. So at this point Eva would be freaking out having just accidentally murdered her sister, and while Maria is bawling her eyes out and along comes Yasu to put her out of her misery. And if you think killing Maria would be out of character for Yasu, I refer you to the earlier passage I quoted where Shannon and Kanon agree it would have been better if Genji had just left them to die at the bottom of the cliff. idonotlikepeas posted:I would bet heavily on it being on purpose, and on a timer. That's why we keep seeing images of that clock inching towards midnight. There's probably a way to control it, but it might be some inconvenient nonsense like the epitaph solution, which would mean that after a certain point it would become impossible to disable it even if Yasu were alive. (That is, if it takes half an hour to get to where the timer is and turn it off, and it's only twenty minutes to midnight...) Consider instead that setting up an explosion that you have no way of stopping fits perfectly with the idea of roulettes and risk required to create a miracle. (Also in EP 4 Yasu had a whole 24 hours after the balcony scene but still couldn't stop the bomb.) Furthermore, setting up the bomb in such a way that the only way to survive is by taking shelter in the secret mansion that solving the epitaph points to sure does align nicely with "Somebody solve this riddle or everyone will die." ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 23:46
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ZiegeDame posted:So at this point Eva would be freaking out having just accidentally murdered her sister, and while Maria is bawling her eyes out and along comes Yasu to put her out of her misery. And if you think killing Maria would be out of character for Yasu, I refer you to the earlier passage I quoted where Shannon and Kanon agree it would have been better if Genji had just left them to die at the bottom of the cliff. So you think Eva and Yasu met? Probably not while wearing Shannon's getup at least, otherwise Eva would've been pretty suspicious about this supposed dead maid next to a very dead George. That would explain how she got the stakes and the ring though, but then you run into the problem that Beatrice promised to stop the murders if the epitaph was solved and Beatrice doesn't break her promises, as given in red. That quote really has nothing to do with Yasu's willingness to kill Maria, nor do I understand why you think it's about Genji. I don't deny that Yasu would (and does in some games) kill Maria but what I meant by out of character is that the person who let Maria live to the end in two games and gave her a death as deliberately peaceful as possible in EP4, now just outright strangling her (while Eva watches on?) doesn't click with me at all.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:10
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Trying to parse through the reasonings this family has to kill one another is frustrating as hell.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:18
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bman in 2288 posted:Trying to parse through the reasonings this family has to kill one another is frustrating as hell. There are so many reasons. Good, bad, indifferent; it's a smorgasbord of motives.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:20
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tiistai posted:So you think Eva and Yasu met? Probably not while wearing Shannon's getup at least, otherwise Eva would've been pretty suspicious about this supposed dead maid next to a very dead George. That would explain how she got the stakes and the ring though, but then you run into the problem that Beatrice promised to stop the murders if the epitaph was solved and Beatrice doesn't break her promises, as given in red. There are only two people Yasu could conceivably refer to as "our Father" and Kinzo never had anything to do with preventing them from dying. What it has to do with Maria is it goes to show that Yasu thinks it's better to be dead than grow up like they did. (An orphan connected to the Ushiromiya family.) I suppose it's possible that Eva left with Maria still alive; maybe Maria was too busy looking for her rose to actually see Eva do the manslaughter, or Eva couldn't bring herself to kill a child or she was just confident enough in her debate skills to make nobody believe Maria if she tried to say anything. So along comes Yasu-as-Beatrice, looking to do the second twilight, and what the gently caress why is Rosa already dead? But she needs two who are close, and Maria is right there, so it really sucks but this is what fate has decided. (Remember how Clair said this whole scheme was basically a way to leave things to fate rather than make any decisions for themself?) So since she didn't plan for this, she doesn't have any poison handy so strangulation is the only option she has that won't leave Maria a bloody mess.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:43
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ZiegeDame posted:There are only two people Yasu could conceivably refer to as "our Father" and Kinzo never had anything to do with preventing them from dying. There's options. It was Shannon and Kanon talking about a Father. The quote was "it would have been better if we had died right after being born", not "right after being thrown off a cliff". Beatrice had been talking about a Father all episode long. Genji isn't really on the top of my list of possible interpretations there.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:52
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I sure can't think of anyone else who Beatrice weirdly called "father" for an entire episode.
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Sep 9, 2017 01:00
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^^ Yeah but what the hell does Battler have to do with Kanon and Shannon not dying. Hell, if we're talking Kanon and Shannon they were born a very long time apart.tiistai posted:There's options. It was Shannon and Kanon talking about a Father. The quote was "it would have been better if we had died right after being born", not "right after being thrown off a cliff". Beatrice had been talking about a Father all episode long. Genji isn't really on the top of my list of possible interpretations there. They were thrown off the cliff when they were what, 3 days old? I'd say that qualifies as right after being born. Though I'd be interested in hearing what other men could be responsible for Yasu, or Kanon, or Shannon not dying right after being born.
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Sep 9, 2017 01:06
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I can't really respond to any of that without saying something I shouldn't.
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Sep 9, 2017 01:24
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ZiegeDame posted:^^ Yeah but what the hell does Battler have to do with Kanon and Shannon not dying. Hell, if we're talking Kanon and Shannon they were born a very long time apart. This was answered in this very update.
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Sep 9, 2017 01:25
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tiistai posted:I can't really respond to any of that without saying something I shouldn't. Hey now, if this is a catbox that can be opened we shouldn't be having this discussion at all. I just assumed that if witches start discussing varying interpretations of something then we've gotten all the game is gonna give us on the matter. If I'm supposed to look at the Kanon and Shannon in the love game specifically as pieces created by Game Master Battler, and thus distinct from the Kanon and Shannon in Clair's story, then I'd have to say the former are stand-ins for Yasu love for Jessica and George respectively. Though in that case I'd more think it'd be Battler's sin that lead to them being born in the first place, but I suppose you could count a fleeting moment of attraction that is immediately dismissed due to already being in a relationship as dying right after being born. Of course, this requires Shannon (for example) to represent multiple different things in the story, which is fine and good, things can mean more than one thing. Meaning just because one interpretation exists doesn't mean the other is wrong.
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Sep 9, 2017 01:55
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PetraCore posted:Also I'm problematic because I keep defaulting to the feminine for Yasu. Hey, I have to check myself every time I make a new post too, and often go back to make corrections. Due to the female trappings Yasu/Beatrice uses- as well ad their unique presentation of the female figure in Shannon and all of the female demons- it is super easy to use feminine pronouns for them. But, see, Kanon was to me the most interesting character in the early stories (and my personal favorite to be Beatrice for a long time), and even if we discount him as a mask Yasu wears, what he did and didn't do is very important to the story. But even if he was just a mask, it seems... recidivist to just throw him out of the narrative in favor of the female personas Yasu assumes, and I do not think it was the intention of R07 for Kanon to just be dismissed, especially in light of Lion's refusal to identify as either gender. I still think he plays a very interesting part in things in terms of what he represents and why he "lost" the duel, but that's a discussion that can wait for a more germane time. But I will say that Kanon's identification as a boy (if indeed he does identify as such) did not play a part in why he lost that duel, nor do I think that the choice of partner had anything to do with the same. There is going to be a post, though, and probably a long one, you know me... PetraCore posted:Wait. Wait. ...  :slaps forehead: Holy goddamn loving poo poo. I had forgotten in light of all the new stuff we learned, but... think of the entire circumstances surrounding that story and compare it to what we know now. It was after Shannon had really started to feel for George, and it was after Eva had been especially nasty to her as a result... what if that really was the straw that broke the camel's back? And she decided she would test the explosives then, and used the cover of the storm to do it? If you're right... then Beato's declaration of "as long as the sacred mirror on the shrine is whole, my magic power cant help you"... becomes "If you can get those bombs under there to work, then that will give you power to start your roulette." Magic to grant a wish... as invisioned by a torpedo blowing up an island.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:01
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and in a storm, the sound of an explosion could be mistaken for a thunderclap.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:09
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ZiegeDame posted:Hey now, if this is a catbox that can be opened we shouldn't be having this discussion at all. I just assumed that if witches start discussing varying interpretations of something then we've gotten all the game is gonna give us on the matter. No, the information is there but if you're not aware of it then it's still effectively spoiler territory Some things like the fine details of Banquet aren't important enough to skirt around tiistai fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Sep 9, 2017 |
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Sep 9, 2017 02:10
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Putting together the gender chat and the father chat, is it possible that Yasu is the father Shannon and Kanon are talking about? I think there was a bit of discussion along those lines when we got to that line, but that was back before we even knew Yasu existed, so that's where the focus of the debate went at the time.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:17
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Graylien posted:Putting together the gender chat and the father chat, is it possible that Yasu is the father Shannon and Kanon are talking about? I think there was a bit of discussion along those lines when we got to that line, but that was back before we even knew Yasu existed, so that's where the focus of the debate went at the time. Which episode is this again? My brain is working exceedingly slowly right now.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:20
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Which episode is this again? My brain is working exceedingly slowly right now. This is just me working from memory, so it is likely I'm wrong but I think it was just before their duel, so ep 6. Edit: Found it, it's in part 31. Graylien fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Sep 9, 2017 |
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Sep 9, 2017 02:40
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resurgam40 posted:...
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Sep 9, 2017 03:15
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resurgam40 posted:Hey, I have to check myself every time I make a new post too, and often go back to make corrections. Due to the female trappings Yasu/Beatrice uses- as well ad their unique presentation of the female figure in Shannon and all of the female demons- it is super easy to use feminine pronouns for them. Add to that that Yasu-the-character doesn't even really have the vocabulary and context to fully articulate their own gender identity in these terms, plus the unstable sense of identity they have and the massive repression, and I don't think there's really a definitive answer, and certainly not a definitively binary answer. But that's okay. It's up to the reader to accept Yasu is Yasu.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:21
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PetraCore posted:Yeah, I agree with this. I certainly think Yasu is feminine, and even that their gender identity is very likely to be feminine. But it's still not necessarily a binary choice there, is it? NB people are a thing, for one, so even if Yasu were to identify more feminine than masculine, it wouldn't have to be that their presentation as Kanon is 'a mistake' or even dysphoric. I mean, I think Yasu suffers from dysphoria. There's a lot of self-hatred and confusion among that kid's personality projections. They staged duels to the death between personalities. That's pretty dire.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:23
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resurgam40 posted:Hey, I have to check myself every time I make a new post too, and often go back to make corrections. Due to the female trappings Yasu/Beatrice uses- as well ad their unique presentation of the female figure in Shannon and all of the female demons- it is super easy to use feminine pronouns for them. Yeah, yesterday I was ready to write words about Kanon, but figured I'd save it for after this update. Suffice it to say there is for sure some gender/sexuality stuff going on there, and I really hope Ep 8 gets into it. Also note how Kanon is the only sub-Yasu to express some degree of contentment with the status quo (see what he planned to do if he won the love duel) and also the only one who consistently tries to actively stop Beatrice from killing everybody. For all that it never happened, Kanon is the only one who can break open the cage in Ep 4. But on another note, from the depths of my free-association, imagine if Umineko was Romantic Comedy, rather than a mystery tragedy. Just picture, for a moment, the classic scene where Yasu has three different dates on the same night.
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Sep 9, 2017 04:23
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Really looking forward to this Tea Party 
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Sep 9, 2017 04:24
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