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icantfindaname posted:Reading his blog posts he seems to think that the South Korean left will impose a totalitarian system in their country because they're North-sympathizing traitors, more or less He knows how to be click-bait I guess.
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Sep 8, 2017 00:10
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Any South Korea authoritarian left is going to want their own leader, not some crummy descendant of Kim Il Sung and his cronies.
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Sep 8, 2017 00:11
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Much like how the right-wing in the politics of most Asian democracies struggle to move beyond ethno-nationalist fascism, the left-wing also has trouble moving past neo-Stalinist revolutionary Marxism. It would not surprise me in the least if there were elements in the South Korean left who sympathized excessively with the North, and Moon's promises of a new Sunshine policy may very well have been aimed at placating that wing.
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Sep 8, 2017 00:17
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I think his premise in The Cleanest Race is solid, but I'm not sure I buy this latest stuff. That said, he certainly has a point, in that the SK left tends to espouse a sympathy for North Korea that seems out of touch with the facts and a decent portion of political discourse in South Korea really loving hates the US, but drawing the line from there to duplicitous traitors within! is.. I don't know.. a little much?
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Sep 8, 2017 00:18
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To be fair I don't think I've seen him say that it would actually work. At the very least it does seem to be a common view among conservative authoritarians that liberal governments are weak. Edit: Yeah, you do have some sympathetic groups on the left end of the political spectrum. I get the impression they don't have much clout, though, and are kinda like the fringe US/European useful idiots who back Putin for whatever reason. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 01:37
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There's a huge huge gap between people who want to trade good relations with the US for good relations with North Korea (whether they're delusional for thinking that's possible or not), or even people who blame the US for causing the problems on the peninsula vs people who actually want to be led by demonstrably terrible leaders in Pyongyang.
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Sep 8, 2017 01:58
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Kim ws told something easy by Puyin that is that All he has to do is not use his nukes and he will perpetually create mass havoc amongstbthe world. Test but dont use. Very simple. Darth Korea stays a country of massive drug trafficking the rich get richer and gently caress the rest. Venezueala ans North Kore aare basically the same countrtn economially. The top guy s mke $$ from drugs their soldiwrs abd police get paid and fed, the rest of the country is a human shield.Welcome to socialism. If Venexuela had nukes it would be the same poo poo. NK just had a very big headdtartm but WAIT TILL VENEZUELA HAS NUKES (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 8, 2017 02:40
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LeoMarr posted:Kim ws told something easy by Puyin that is that All he has to do is not use his nukes and he will perpetually create mass havoc amongstbthe world. Test but dont use. Very simple. Darth Korea stays a country of massive drug trafficking the rich get richer and gently caress the rest. Venezueala ans North Kore aare basically the same countrtn economially. The top guy s mke $$ from drugs their soldiwrs abd police get paid and fed, the rest of the country is a human shield.Welcome to socialism. If Venexuela had nukes it would be the same poo poo. NK just had a very big headdtartm but WAIT TILL VENEZUELA HAS NUKES You're so retarded, you think bullets poof out of existence!
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Sep 8, 2017 08:42
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I'm gonna be woken up by another ICBM going overhead tomorrow morning, aren't I....
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Sep 8, 2017 08:53
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icantfindaname posted:I've been going through the guy's blog and it is interesting
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Sep 8, 2017 10:14
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hailthefish posted:SK left tends to espouse a sympathy for North Korea that seems out of touch with the facts I mean, probably because north korean to them is family members and friends and family of friends and friends of family and places they used to be able to go or know people that went to not really all that long ago instead of being some purely hypothetical spooky enemy country far across the sea.
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Sep 8, 2017 14:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean, probably because north korean to them is family members and friends and family of friends and friends of family and places they used to be able to go or know people that went to not really all that long ago instead of being some purely hypothetical spooky enemy country far across the sea. Uh, no. The last time you could freely visit between the countries was like 1949, and most of the "South Korean left" ain't that fuckin old, not least because the 40 years of military dictatorship tended to put a short life expectancy on any leftists they could get their hands on.
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Sep 8, 2017 14:30
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fishmech posted:Uh, no. The last time you could freely visit between the countries was like 1949, and most of the "South Korean left" ain't that fuckin old, not least because the 40 years of military dictatorship tended to put a short life expectancy on any leftists they could get their hands on. You can still have family from 1949. It seems a lot harder to claim you are perfect logic and reason robot who looks at it objectively when it's a country right there that people you know have been to or whatever than it being some spooky mystery land that only the tv tells you about.
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Sep 8, 2017 15:40
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:You can still have family from 1949. It seems a lot harder to claim you are perfect logic and reason robot who looks at it objectively when it's a country right there that people you know have been to or whatever than it being some spooky mystery land that only the tv tells you about. There's less and less people you know have visited every year. Because it's been over 60 years since they could visit. Because of that whole war thing.
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Sep 8, 2017 15:51
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fishmech posted:There's less and less people you know have visited every year. Because it's been over 60 years since they could visit. Because of that whole war thing. It's a pretty closed off country but you are factually incorrect if you think it's a closed off fortress no one has entered in 60 years. Until 2008 you could just drive over and hang out on mount kumgang without a visa or anything. You couldn't generally hang out with arbitary north koreans that way, but it's not like they closed the country 60 years ago and not one soul has ever seen that kingdom of legend or anything.
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Sep 8, 2017 15:58
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's a pretty closed off country but you are factually incorrect if you think it's a closed off fortress no one has entered in 60 years. Until 2008 you could just drive over and hang out on mount kumgang without a visa or anything. You couldn't generally hang out with arbitary north koreans that way, but it's not like they closed the country 60 years ago and not one soul has ever seen that kingdom of legend or anything. Going and visiting select restricted tourist sites is a hell of a lot different from being able to go visit your grandpa who lives in Hamhung ya colossal idiot. You're not visiting any relatives that way unless you happen to be related to the local workers by coincidence. Families separated by the inner german border had enough of a hassle getting to visit the parts of families across the borders, and that was with a far more permissive system of visitation. Many people ended up not seeing loved ones or relatives until the total breakdown of East German restrictions on travel in the wake of the accidental announcement that led to the first destruction of the Berlin Wall. And visiting family between the Koreas is like 1000x harder. fishmech fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 17:57
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It's only since the late 80s or so that South Korea was anything other than a (non-Communist) authoritarian regime. It's not THAT crazy to think that 1) NK would want to reunite under North Korean terms and that 2) any resulting compromise in that vein would also be authoritarian. I have no idea how realistic it would be for the SK left to willingly adopt NK ways, or for the SK left to be hornswoggled and/or bamboozled into getting sucked into NK's ways. I'm just some (non-Korean) guy, so I won't pretend to be able to evaluate that theory beyond that.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:22
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fishmech posted:Going and visiting select restricted tourist sites is a hell of a lot different from being able to go visit your grandpa who lives in Hamhung ya colossal idiot. You're not visiting any relatives that way unless you happen to be related to the local workers by coincidence. I mean, even having a grandpa in the country makes it harder to be the cool mathematical wise american who only takes logic and reason and their cold steel katana while thinking about north korea, not like the people that live near it and share family and culture and actually know people that have been there and can see the country be just looking from the top of a large hill near where they live or whatever.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:26
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There are still reunions happening. I think the last one was in 2015 when SK was under a conservative government. 60 years is not a long time from a historical perspective. There are still people alive who lived on a united Korean peninsula. Their desire to re-unite with their families without anyone coming to harm is probably 100% genuine. Also BR Meyers can go gently caress himself. I'm sure there are a few genuine tankies on the left in Korea, just like there are on the left in the US and elsewhere, but they're the exception not the rule. Most people proposing normalizing relations with the North do so because they want to (finally) see a peaceful resolution to a conflict that once completely decimated average Korean people's lives and now threatens to do so again. Anyways it's not the South Korean left's view of North Korea that's distorted, it's Americans, both conservative and liberal, who hold a racially tinged, cold-war era hysteria guided view of the North as a uniquely threatening state. More so than many other poor, nationalist, authoritarian nations around the world (many of which we have diplomatic relations with and provide military aid to). Yes, that does include people in this thread.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:36
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Chomskyan posted:Yes, that does include people in this thread. something of an understatement
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Sep 8, 2017 19:39
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Chomskyan posted:Anyways it's not the South Korean left's view of North Korea that's distorted, it's Americans, both conservative and liberal, who hold a racially tinged, cold-war era hysteria guided view of the North as a uniquely threatening state. More so than many other poor, nationalist, authoritarian nations around the world (many of which we have diplomatic relations with and provide military aid to). Yes, that does include people in this thread. This is loving stupid. North Korea is regarded as uniquely threatening because it's the only country that routinely threatens to nuke other countries. Their regime has deliberately been playing the Nixon crazy man strategy of trying to make everyone think they might dramatically escalate any confrontation at any time, and it's worked in convincing us their leaders are crazy or at least very dangerous (and therefore in deterring retaliation when they engage in hostile actions against the South). Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 20:05
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Sinteres posted:This is loving stupid. North Korea is regarded as uniquely threatening because it's the only country that routinely threatens to nuke other countries. Their regime has deliberately been playing the Nixon crazy man strategy of trying to make everyone think they might dramatically escalate any confrontation at any time, and it's worked in convincing us their leaders are crazy or at least very dangerous (and therefore in deterring retaliation when they engage in hostile actions against the South). Nah, North Korea is both dangerous and threatening but also a thing Americans produce absurd levels of extremely silly nonsense propaganda about.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:41
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I don't understand why Americans are upset about a country that routinely threatens to nuke the United States acquiring nuclear weapons and intercontinental delivery systems. What a bunch of weirdoes.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:58
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean, even having a grandpa in the country makes it harder to be the cool mathematical wise american who only takes logic and reason and their cold steel katana while thinking about north korea, not like the people that live near it and share family and culture and actually know people that have been there and can see the country be just looking from the top of a large hill near where they live or whatever. No it really doesn't, look at the fuckin tons of conservative hawk South Koreans there are, or the entire military dictatorship regime that lasted 40 years. There's also simply a lot of South Koreans who no longer have family they know about up North, because again there's been severe seperation in effect for 65+ years. You also aren't seeing poo poo in North Korea from "looking from the top of a large hill near where they live". A) because most South Koreans live nowhere close to being able to see the DMZ at all and B) even if you get to some of the DMZ-adjacent hills that are actually legal to be on without getting shot you're mostly going to see empty lands or propaganda installations - just like what's going to be around where you're standing in South Korea. To go back to comparing with the German situation, there was for most of the separation ongoing access corridors for civilian road and rail travel into Berlin, going deep through East German territory. There was on top of that the ability for West Germans not visiting West Berlin to go and drive/ride around nearly anywhere in East Germany they wanted, so long as they acquired at least a certain minimum of East German marks with hard currency per day, and made sure to check in with local police each overnight stay. Such a system for South Koreans in North Korea is still unthinkable today and has been for decades, and even though a North Korean could theoretically go wherever they want in South Korea it's very hard to be permitted to leave.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:05
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Sinteres posted:This is loving stupid. North Korea is regarded as uniquely threatening because it's the only country that routinely threatens to nuke other countries. Their regime has deliberately been playing the Nixon crazy man strategy of trying to make everyone think they might dramatically escalate any confrontation at any time, and it's worked in convincing us their leaders are crazy or at least very dangerous (and therefore in deterring retaliation when they engage in hostile actions against the South). Nah, you're misinformed, like most of hardliners in this thread. The US has routinely threatened to nuke North Korea as well, although both the US and North Korea generally precede their threats with "If we're attacked first". American/Anglo news generally cuts the "if we're attacked first" part of NK threats from the headlines though.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:06
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The US will regularly fly nuclear-capable bombers to the DMZ to remind North Korea that they can hit them even without their pacific bases but I don't remember any time the US saying "We're going to nuke North Korea."
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Sep 8, 2017 21:10
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Actually, flying a nuclear capable bomber right by antagonistic state's border is several times worse than a verbal threat. But there have been verbal threats as well, especially from Trump and Mattis recently.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:18
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Chomskyan posted:Actually, flying a nuclear capable bomber right by antagonistic state's border is several times worse than a verbal threat. Trump and Mattis have both said that they're willing to go to war with North Korea if necessary, but have they said "we're going to nuke them?" And no, it isn't several times worse than a verbal threat, considering nuclear states fly nuclear capable bombers near each other's borders all the time.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:22
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No they haven't literally said "we're going to nuke you" but that is the height of pedantry. The US has obviously, repeatedly threatened North Korea with nuclear annihilation in the event of a war. It's obvious what the intent of flying a nuclear bomber close to NK's border means. It's obvious what Trump means when he threatens "fire and fury" against North Korea. The US had nuclear missiles in South Korea for decades after the war, and it's 100% obvious they were there as a threat against North Korea. The US actually considered nuking NK after China intervened during the Korean war, which is a matter of public record. The threat of nuclear force is something that the US has repeatedly used against the North and there is no such thing as a non-belligerent nuclear threat.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:35
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2017 21:38
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Chomskyan posted:No they haven't literally said "we're going to nuke you" but that is the height of pedantry. It's not pedantry when we're talking about North Korea, who has explicitly threatened nuclear attacks on the US and on US allies, usually in the context of trying to extract concessions. Not even the USSR used the threat of nuclear war as a bludgeon for every foreign policy issue it encountered. quote:The US has obviously, repeatedly threatened North Korea with nuclear annihilation in the event of a war. It's obvious what the intent of flying a nuclear bomber close to NK's border means. It's obvious what Trump means when he threatens "fire and fury" against North Korea. The US had nuclear missiles in South Korea for decades after the war, and it's 100% obvious they were there as a threat against North Korea. The only thing that is obvious about these is the demonstration of capability, and the demonstration of capability is not the same as a demonstration of intent. quote:The US actually considered nuking NK after China intervened during the Korean war, which is a matter of public record. The threat of nuclear force is something that the US has repeatedly used against the North and there is no such thing as a non-belligerent nuclear threat. The US didn't though. MacArthur was mulling the idea and that alarmed a number of people, but the US, even in the Korean war, never said "We are going to nuke North Korea/China." It's public record because it happened almost 70 years ago, and a lot of it was because MacArthur was going rogue and it resulted in him being removed from command.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:44
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sincx posted:The 2017 line "Kim Jong Un is only pretending to be crazy, as part of a rational decision to scare off the US and/or China from attempting regime change" is beginning to sound eerily like 2016's "Trump is only pretending to be crazy, as part of a rational decision to solidify his grasp on his base." But Kim Jong Un isn't pretending to be crazy? He's playing a perfectly rational game that's probably going to achieve exactly what he wants - make the cost of attacking his country too great for anyone to seriously consider it. What has he done that you would call irrational?
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Sep 8, 2017 21:46
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He's not a white neoliberal therefore he can't be rational. Rational Asians worship the ground whites walk on and model their societies after white ones!!
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Sep 8, 2017 21:51
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IMO the DPRK establishment is a rational actor with very different values and goals than most of "the west" is used to, and thus people lazily just say "dude's crazy lol." The DPRK has yet to threaten attacking the US as a first strike. The US government has yet to threaten attacking the DPRK as a first strike.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:56
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Peven Stan posted:He's not a white neoliberal therefore he can't be rational. Rational Asians worship the ground whites walk on and model their societies after white ones!!
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Sep 8, 2017 23:34
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Dolphin posted:Yes, Asians are just "different" with incompatible cultures. Japan and South Korea just assimilated and are defacto white people now. You jest, but this is D&D. They actually believe that.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:36
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Sep 8, 2017 23:37
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I can't determine how crazy Kim is until I get a clarification on the execution method he used on his uncle.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:40
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Sinteres posted:This is loving stupid. North Korea is regarded as uniquely threatening because it's the only country that routinely threatens to nuke other countries. Their regime has deliberately been playing the Nixon crazy man strategy of trying to make everyone think they might dramatically escalate any confrontation at any time, and it's worked in convincing us their leaders are crazy or at least very dangerous (and therefore in deterring retaliation when they engage in hostile actions against the South). They should give up their nuclear weapons program. Look how well that worked for Saddam and Momar.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:44
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VideoGameVet posted:They should give up their nuclear weapons program. Look how well that worked for Saddam and Momar. I'm gonna be crazy and say that they should stop being a lovely pseudo-feudal military dictatorship
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Sep 8, 2017 23:45
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