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Tell it to my heart.
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Sep 9, 2017 03:37
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Spinning Robo posted:This first article rubs me the wrong way. The idea seems to be "Well, many bad things happen under capitalism, and we don't attack capitalism as a concept for it, so we shouldn't attack socialism for the bad things that happen in its name." Combination of "If the USA does it, it's automatically and by definition wrong, because the USA is evil incarnate and always wrong - the grass is always greener on the other side" logic; and the circular logic of "The USSR (for example) only failed because it needed more communism, the only amount that would have saved it is more than previously".
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Sep 9, 2017 03:54
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an unpopular opinion related to this discussion: i'm a little skeptical of the extent to which social democracy, as practiced by the nordic states, actually represents any kind of major departure from western capitalism, except for perhaps having elements of a highly efficient national practice of it, coupled with a few other favorable local characteristics like having a small workforce that has access to and can sell on a much bigger world market sweden, for example, was at least 12th in the world in per capita billionaires in 2013, being mostly only beaten by microstates like Monaco, and it has individuals like the Ikea founder and the owner of H&M who are some of the richest people in the world bar none, at least in estimates that include company ownership as a valued asset in net worth - sweden isn't really a sterling example of full communism now or even eating the rich even tho some of its taxation policies are stricter than in other countries (caveat: it still has a number of pro-business policies like a flat rate on investment income and a lower rate of corporate tax than even america); a large number of its businesses and employees are doing extremely well and their profits are being efficiently channeled back into the country to fuel more progress - if you ask me a country that enables its population to be highly competitive in the labor market through things like a free education to its citizens, a good public transport system that allows anyone get to work reasonably, a healthcare system that helps people get back on their feet asap, etc etc etc is setting itself on the right track to making the most of its finite resources, including national manpower, and i think other countries need to learn that policies that enable employees to prosper are just as valuable to business and the economy as those that just enable employers i think one of the few ways sweden explicitly rubs against traditional capitalism is using government representatives to arbitrate union issues but even that's a sketchy argument as that used to happen in other countries back when unions were stronger, otherwise domestic features like looser economic regulation in terms of licensing and competition, but not stuff like employee healthcare or environmental regulation, than america and strict stances on immigration and other kinds of protectionism (which makes sweden and the other nordic countries some of the hardest places in the world to legally infiltrate as a foreign person or as a foreign business, at least before the refugee crisis) are firmly within the purview of enabling and stabilizing domestic markets - speaking of the other nordic countries, norway using the unequal valuation of its national oil reserves to float its own growth and development via the market isn't exactly a sterling argument for anti-capitalist ideas either, i doubt that an alternative labor-time-valuation of these assets would provide a shorter route to universal prosperity, but at least it does make the case for a nation being the direct owner of its resources, although an offshore oil rig probably wouldn't fall into the private property of an individual anyway, either way while not every progressive policy a nordic country adopts will feed back into its economy like this you can see how the nordic brand of 'kind kapitalism' that economists used to write off as being too unncompetitive is sorta doing a killer job of competing and producing very rich businessmen and women while also enriching productive employees with that said, i'm not sure how much america could actually benefit from incorporating many of these elements into its own system, such as it is right now, mostly for the fact that, for better or for worse, america is stuck being the arsenal of democracy in spending egregious amounts of its national income on defense and the like rather than on its own people - i'm sure procurement and acquisition could be made more efficient under a leader with foresight since expensive military boondoggles have drained actual trillions that could've gone into infrastructure instead, and that at some point someone will have to take a hard look at their experiences in the middle east where, under their current system, they obtained a measured success (if even that) at the expense of trillions and trillions more against an astronomically poorer opponent, arguably inflicting vastly more economic damage on themselves than on the enemy in the process of subduing them but since it still seems like there are some countries in the world that will act childishly when it comes to projecting their military power at their neighbors i have trouble thinking that america should withdraw entirely from the world stage to focus on its own budget ... but that's maybe another unpopular opinion
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Sep 9, 2017 05:50
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We should just forcibly remove the wealth of anyone that I don't like that is over a certain threshold of wealth, say the folks in the top 10% of the economy. There comes a point where that much wealth doesn't really improve anyones life beyond locking it up for their own family, and gently caress that. That would work, just redistribute that poo poo to pay off student loans and medical bills so people can become more productive again. This should happen every 75 years or so, and be done randomly and without warning.
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Sep 9, 2017 06:15
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That would be a really awkward way of doing it. Instead, education and health care should be funded by taxes so there are no student loans or medical bills.
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Sep 9, 2017 08:07
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Not that it makes me an expert, but I live in Denmark, and I wasn't aware that the Scandinavian countries were thought of as any kind of departure from Western capitalism, like, at all. Currently the political landscape is relatively left-wing compared to the US, and has been for a long time, sure, but I'd still think that it is completely within the framework of both a capitalist and democratic system. Anyway, it isn't that I disagree with the point, but rather that I'm just not sure who the people are that would argue otherwise. Who is it that thinks of Sweden, or the Nordic countries, as examples of "full communism now"? It seems completely ridiculous to me, to not consider the Nordic countries as capitalist, despite relatively strong unions and high taxation - so I am wondering if the reason that you think of your stance as unpopular, is because the Nordic countries are actually viewed as not being capitalists, free-market economies in the US? The "Nordic" model re; unions is actually one area that seems more free market / capitalist here than in the US, imo. I'm not 100 % sure on how Sweden mediates in union issues, but I don't know why mediating would be considered any stricter, or more socialist, or less capitalist, than direct legislation. I mean, individual US states have minimum wages that are set by law, right? Sure, the state can mediate here, but it isn't the default that the state actively engages in negotiations - except in the situation where the state is one of the directly involved parties, as an actual employer - but it is fail-safe that seeks to ensure that critical fields of work wont break down because of strikes. As an example, there is no by-law minimum wage here, which is something that is reached through union agreement and negotiation in individual unions, which seems to me to be less invasive than direct legislation. EmmyOk posted:are you still eating raw potatos? That makes it sound as if I've been doing nothing else since, but yes. quote:Still don't think a great result validates a lovely decision This is what is important. I can forgive you, your weird soup-hangup, if you can overlook the raw potatoes.
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Sep 9, 2017 08:37
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doverhog posted:That would be a really awkward way of doing it. Instead, education and health care should be funded by taxes so there are no student loans or medical bills. But that's socialism! BOOOOOOO! Support are troops, blue lives matter!
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Sep 9, 2017 13:24
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Grandmother of Five posted:This is what is important. I can forgive you, your weird soup-hangup, if you can overlook the raw potatoes. Agreed it's the most frustrating thing on the planet. Particularly frustrating when you made a well reasoned or researched choice on the same thing and it doesn't work out. e: someday I'll meet someone who understands the soup menace like I do
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Sep 9, 2017 15:11
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I read this page
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Sep 9, 2017 16:54
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Horseshoe theory is true.
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Sep 9, 2017 17:44
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Grandmother of Five posted:Not that it makes me an expert, but I live in Denmark, and I wasn't aware that the Scandinavian countries were thought of as any kind of departure from Western capitalism, like, at all. Solice Kirsk posted:But that's socialism! BOOOOOOO! Support are troops, blue lives matter! politicians, lobbyists, etc in north america have essentially stretched the meanings of communism and socialism to the point of parody when melodramatically attacking one another's platform (and to be honest, some of them seem genuine about these attacks) and that has expanded into framing the average citizen's understanding of other country's politics as well; you get actual think-pieces with deep misunderstandings of just how actually marxist-socialist-communist-whatever other countries are, particularly the nordic states lately since they have a number of policies some of us would like to implement here that are getting locally derided as 'communist'
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Sep 9, 2017 18:03
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spit on my clit posted:i am not saying to get rid of regulation, i'm saying that regulation goes farther than it should a lot of times. Hahahahaha imagine actually saying this right after Equifax
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Sep 9, 2017 19:33
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fruit on the bottom posted:Hahahahaha imagine actually saying this right after Equifax Or the chemical plants that blew up and polluted the flooded waters caused by Hurricane Harvey. The economics of perfectly competitive markets is sound, but in the real economy, companies maximizing profits will engage in anti-competitive behavior that results in a net social loss.
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Sep 9, 2017 21:49
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Blue Star posted:Horseshoe theory is true. Elaborate.
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Sep 9, 2017 23:24
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It's the idea that the far left and far right start wrapping around and end up closer to each other than the left/right people closer to centre.
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Sep 9, 2017 23:55
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It's dumb, unlike the much more accurate Fishhook Theory
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Sep 9, 2017 23:56
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Midig posted:Elaborate. I see a lot of race realism, authoritarianism, anti-semitism, etc. on both sides.
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Sep 10, 2017 00:59
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Henchman of Santa posted:It's dumb, unlike the much more accurate Fishhook Theory horseshoe theory is inaccurate, my violence and hatred is v. different than theirs
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Sep 10, 2017 01:30
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And no im not a centrist, whatever that means. I dont see myself as being in the middle of two extreme sides of a spectrum. I just see a bunch of crazy people, hypocrites, dumbasses, etc. of varying stripes and shapes and sizes.
Blue Star has a new favorite as of 01:34 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 01:32
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Blue Star posted:I see a lot of race realism, authoritarianism, anti-Semitism, etc. on both sides. I have mostly seen race realism and anti-Semitism from the extreme right. Both in Europe and the US. Where can I find these people in the left?
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Sep 10, 2017 01:36
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Trauma Dog 3000 posted:horseshoe theory is inaccurate, my violence and hatred is v. different than theirs Hello, new FAROOQ account Midig posted:I have mostly seen race realism and anti-Semitism from the extreme right. Both in Europe and the US. Where can I find these people in the left? There's very little anti-Semitism from the far left but some people do take their anti-Zionism a little bit too far.
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Sep 10, 2017 01:39
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Henchman of Santa posted:Hello, new FAROOQ account Well, I have seen people on the left who are not fond of Israel in the conflict between Israel and Palestine, but I think it is quite a stretch to call it Anti-Semitism.
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Sep 10, 2017 01:56
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Midig posted:Well, I have seen people on the left who are not fond of Israel in the conflict between Israel and Palestine, but I think it is quite a stretch to call it Anti-Semitism. I never said it's anti-Semitic to be opposed to Israel. I am Jewish and I think they're awful. But there are absolutely folks who take it to extremes. They're a small minority though.
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Sep 10, 2017 01:58
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Jackie Brown is the best Tarantino film.
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Sep 10, 2017 02:10
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If you go way far left, you get race separatists, actual misandry and a privilege point system where you're judged for things beyond your control, same as the right. I really, really didn't want to believe it until I met a living and breathing person who practiced it. She buys her two sons only dresses and dolls to play in/with, forbids them from watching superhero shows (which they watched at my nephew's house, in secret), openly talks about how males are garbage in front of them and criticized my niece for liking little girl things like princesses and mermaids. Her husband left her and she's now dating a trans person solely for the purpose of, in her own words, "supporting the cause." I met her, gently caress me. I actually met this person. And her logic for feminism and racial support goes so far it looks right back to being misogynistic and racist. Like that women and minorities need things handed to them because they can't accomplish things on their own. The point is, monsters exist in every group.
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Sep 10, 2017 03:35
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One time I was walking north and I stepped in a puddle, so now I never walk north because that's where all the water is.
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Sep 10, 2017 03:49
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If it makes you happy to avoid a compass direction, you should do it. But how many degrees off north is far enough?
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Sep 10, 2017 06:38
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Once you go too far north, you're heading south again! 
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Sep 10, 2017 08:30
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Das Boo posted:If you go way far left, you get race separatists, actual misandry and a privilege point system where you're judged for things beyond your control, same as the right. I really, really didn't want to believe it until I met a living and breathing person who practiced it. She buys her two sons only dresses and dolls to play in/with, forbids them from watching superhero shows (which they watched at my nephew's house, in secret), openly talks about how males are garbage in front of them and criticized my niece for liking little girl things like princesses and mermaids. Her husband left her and she's now dating a trans person solely for the purpose of, in her own words, "supporting the cause." I met her, gently caress me. I actually met this person. I don't know that person, of course, but that sounds more like a mental breakdown or illness than ideology to me. Anyway, I think horseshoe theory makes a worthwhile point about the dangers of totalitarianism not being exclusive to any political ideology. I don't see that it is really accurate outside of that, but that's partially because a left/right alignment doesn't accurately sum up the complexity of ideologies or political parties to begin with, and is a poor way of categorizing political landscapes.
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Sep 10, 2017 08:35
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Grandmother of Five posted:I don't know that person, of course, but that sounds more like a mental breakdown or illness than ideology to me. I agree with you on both points. Poison people are just gonna make poison.
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Sep 10, 2017 09:17
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Grandmother of Five posted:Anyway, I think horseshoe theory makes a worthwhile point about the dangers of totalitarianism not being exclusive to any political ideology. I don't see that it is really accurate outside of that, but that's partially because a left/right alignment doesn't accurately sum up the complexity of ideologies or political parties to begin with, and is a poor way of categorizing political landscapes. People are too into Political Compass even though it's a load of rubbish.
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Sep 10, 2017 10:40
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Can this be funny: "Officers catch male going around selling grams of sex"
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Sep 10, 2017 10:42
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Clinton and Sanders both would've been colossal disappointments if they'd won.
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Sep 10, 2017 15:34
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Wheat Loaf posted:Clinton and Sanders both would've been colossal disappointments if they'd won. Probably, but that's just the nature of the political system. If you can deliver on half your promises you're doing an excellent job.
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Sep 10, 2017 15:41
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Henchman of Santa posted:Probably, but that's just the nature of the political system. If you can deliver on half your promises you're doing an excellent job. It's partly the political system and partly because people have the dreadful habit of projecting so many presumed values onto candidates that they're setting themselves up for disappointment. Just look at Obama; he ran broadly to Clinton's right in the primary in 2008 and governed that way too, but had so much projected onto him during the race (by his opponents as much as supporters) that he could only disappoint. Same deal with Trump, but Trump's more complicit himself than most because he encouraged it to a far greater degree than the average politician. It's frightfully frustrating where we're at a point where "has principles" is treated like it's some sort of automatic positive good regardless of what those principles are. I recently saw a newspaper column where the columnist said "I disagree wholeheartedly with Jacob Rees-Mogg's statement that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape, but I admire that he has principles". That is patently absurd. You don't express respect for somebody just because they're honest about their views if you strenuously disagree with them. Frankly, a lot of people - and especially young people - could stand to be let down by their politicians, so they can get over themselves, but I don't imagine they'd learn their lesson. Wheat Loaf has a new favorite as of 16:14 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 15:45
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Wheat Loaf posted:Clinton and Sanders both would've been colossal disappointments if they'd won. Clinton manages to be a huge disappointment even as a loser, so that's a given.
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Sep 10, 2017 16:23
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Wheat Loaf posted:Clinton and Sanders both would've been colossal disappointments if they'd won. The only person I'm never disappointed in is myself. So I'd have still be fine with this outcome.
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Sep 10, 2017 16:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:Frankly, a lot of people - and especially young people - could stand to be let down by their politicians, so they can get over themselves, but I don't imagine they'd learn their lesson. Are you saying they aren't already being let down?
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Sep 10, 2017 16:32
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Wheat Loaf posted:It's frightfully frustrating where we're at a point where "has principles" is treated like it's some sort of automatic positive good regardless of what those principles are. I recently saw a newspaper column where the columnist said "I disagree wholeheartedly with Jacob Rees-Mogg's statement that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape, but I admire that he has principles". That is patently absurd. You don't express respect for somebody just because they're honest about their views. Agreed, strength of conviction in itself just really isn't something that is laudable, and it is a fairly commonly misconception, I feel, that rigidness of belief translates into dependability and accountability of character. Taking pride in remaining unchanging in the meeting with others is misguided, and it is saddening when that is also construed as if a willingness to change is a weakness of character and flip-flopping. Admitting that you are wrong, taking in experiences and growing from them, is a far harder, healthier and more constructive process, than ignoring logical and ethical arguments and experiences that goes counter to your beliefs through sheer force of conviction. Also, I like honey on dark rye.
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Sep 10, 2017 16:33
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I love dark rye so much, because everyone else in the house hates it, and that way they won't eat all my bread.
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Sep 10, 2017 17:17
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