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I do agree the villains need bigger wins especially now that All Might is off the table but I super don't understand this obsession with character death in a manga genre known for having almost none of the heroes dying
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Sep 10, 2017 18:38
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Blockhouse posted:I do agree the villains need bigger wins especially now that All Might is off the table but I super don't understand this obsession with character death in a manga genre known for having almost none of the heroes dying
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Sep 10, 2017 18:57
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Fabricated posted:unrealistic expectations set by HxH That's crazy because even HxH hasn't killed off anyone super important also straight up: I think the HxH obsession with death is kind of gross too but that's just me and I get that. That's still one incredibly far outlier from the norm. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 19:08
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Blockhouse posted:That's crazy because even HxH hasn't killed off anyone super important
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Sep 10, 2017 19:13
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TFRazorsaw posted:I guess I still don't understand what a "meaningful defeat" as y'all define it is. Shounen in general isn't known for making its characters lose a lot of the time outside of precursors to just make them unlock more "true potential". The ones that take characters out of commission are the exception and not the rule. Naruto and One Piece both have the main characters losing in a big way right before their respective time skips.
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Sep 10, 2017 19:17
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Both series had been running for numerous years by that point and before that, One Piece was widely known for most characters, not even villains, dying.
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Sep 10, 2017 19:22
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The JoJo adaptation was also in the spotlight for a while leading into MHA, and that's a series that's never had an issue with brutally turbokilling protagonists to ramp up the stakes.
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Sep 10, 2017 19:27
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Silver2195 posted:Naruto and One Piece both have the main characters losing in a big way right before their respective time skips. Yeah, Sasuke beat Naruto and joined up with Orochimaru, but that was about it. All the other kids were in extremely life-threatening situations and got out without any lasting damage. Even Chouji who had his whole big moment there.
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Sep 10, 2017 19:43
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Besides, if you want serious loss, Hori has already told a tale of heartbreak and tragedy:
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Sep 10, 2017 19:43
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Terper posted:Yeah, Sasuke beat Naruto and joined up with Orochimaru, but that was about it. All the other kids were in extremely life-threatening situations and got out without any lasting damage. Even Chouji who had his whole big moment there.
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Sep 10, 2017 19:47
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Nobody who matters has ever died in HXH & one guy who died and made the main character go crazy with revenge turned out to actually have never died & the main character was supposed to die from what he did but a previously never seen magic wishing elf wished him back to health, then after that another guy died but came back to life two panels later. I'm pretty sure Netero is going to be chilling on the dark continent like whats up I wanted to go here so I faked my death via exploding a nuke inside my body and headed over.
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Sep 10, 2017 20:01
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Work Friend Keven posted:Nobody who matters has ever died in HXH & one guy who died and made the main character go crazy with revenge turned out to actually have never died & the main character was supposed to die from what he did but a previously never seen magic wishing elf wished him back to health, then after that another guy died but came back to life two panels later. I'm pretty sure Netero is going to be chilling on the dark continent like whats up I wanted to go here so I faked my death via exploding a nuke inside my body and headed over. Netero, The Troupe, The Butler, two of the main characters basically written out, sword of damocles over Kurapika's head.
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Sep 10, 2017 20:21
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Oh yeah, its taking YEARS OFF HIS LIFE!!!! holy cripes! Never seen that in a shonen before.
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Sep 10, 2017 20:45
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Work Friend Keven posted:Oh yeah, its taking YEARS OFF HIS LIFE!!!! holy cripes! Never seen that in a shonen before. next to transforming and friendship bonds and giant fights where nobody actually dies it's the most common shonen thing
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Sep 10, 2017 20:48
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Work Friend Keven posted:Oh yeah, its taking YEARS OFF HIS LIFE!!!! holy cripes! Never seen that in a shonen before. which shonen had a non lead have it? OH and I forgot Hisoka. Kild fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 20:56
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Kild posted:which shonen had a non lead have it? Techniques that are supposed to kill you from overuse? All over the place in Naruto, Tien in Dragonball, Ishida in Bleach used an ability that made him lose his powers FOREVER until he got them back an arc later, Shiryu in Saint Seiya had a move that would send him into space and kill him if he used it, etc etc etc
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Sep 10, 2017 21:03
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I don't think any of the kids need to die for the stakes to feel high, All Might eventually dying a maybe Mirio being permanently dequirked are definitely going to be enough motivation for Deku. Although I'm still not sold on Mirio's thing being permanent until we know whether Overhaul had some kind of antidote prepared. Depending on how this arc ends the Villain alliance will probably finish in a good position, and I agree they need a few more meaningful victories for them to feel like threats to the main characters. Hopefully that will come at the end of this arc or in the next.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:07
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Blockhouse posted:Techniques that are supposed to kill you from overuse? All over the place in Naruto, Tien in Dragonball, Ishida in Bleach used an ability that made him lose his powers FOREVER until he got them back an arc later, Shiryu in Saint Seiya had a move that would send him into space and kill him if he used it, etc etc etc Those are different from Kurapika's. Naruto and Luffy had the 'you're shaving years off your life' techniques but in Naruto's case it didn't matter at all and Luffy has seemed to have gotten around that problem. Ishida doesn't shave any life off? Tho even if he did it didn't wind up mattering at all in the story. I've not watched Saint Seiya but that's interesting how you can know you have that move but can never use it. Was it some Miroku poo poo?
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Sep 10, 2017 21:32
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Blockhouse posted:Ishida in Bleach used an ability that made him lose his powers FOREVER until he got them back an arc later
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Sep 10, 2017 21:33
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Kild posted:Those are different from Kurapika's. Naruto and Luffy had the 'you're shaving years off your life' techniques but in Naruto's case it didn't matter at all and Luffy has seemed to have gotten around that problem. Ishida doesn't shave any life off? Tho even if he did it didn't wind up mattering at all in the story. I've not watched Saint Seiya but that's interesting how you can know you have that move but can never use it. Was it some Miroku poo poo? Wow yeah thats a good point, those things don't matter at all. If only there... was some way... to connect that information to Hunter X Hunter.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:41
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I actually have to wonder if All Might Dying while still seen to be a pinnacle of strength and heroics would actually have been less damaging than living while being revealed to be weak and sick.
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Sep 10, 2017 22:03
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:The JoJo adaptation was also in the spotlight for a while leading into MHA, and that's a series that's never had an issue with brutally turbokilling protagonists to ramp up the stakes. That's not really the same because he does that at the end of each part which is more like a series end. I am glad he does it though and it does give the endings super high tension but he also just lets charactes never show up again because he starts a new part. IMO one of the kids dying wouldn't add much to the series and people losing faith in heroes generally would be a much worse thing in the world imo. Granted a kid dying would do that but it really wouldn't be great imo or add anything to the type of story this is. One Piece held off on its first death (outside flashbacks) and it did have a lot of impact but it had tonnes of sad and impactful moments before then without killing anyone. e: When All Might survived against AfP that's when I assumed we'd likely not see a series death until the series end
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Sep 10, 2017 22:31
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TFRazorsaw posted:Both series had been running for numerous years by that point and before that, One Piece was widely known for most characters, not even villains, dying. But at least One Piece had significant wins by the villains. Even after twenty years, villains in the series still feel like big deals, they usually have all the cards in their favour but they also own the house and make the rules. Basically the start of every arc has the Straw Hats as the underdogs, and them overcoming the odds and winning anyway is a part of why the series is so drat good. MHA villains are very much the underdogs. They're underequipped, lacking in resources and personal, basically the whole world is against them. Even in this arc, where the heroes are invading the villains turf, where the odds should be stacked in their favour, and the heroes having no real plan beyond charging in headfirst, it's a perfect setup, the cards are all in the villains hand, and they're getting obliterated. Overhaul's objective was escape, not meeting the confrontation head on, and his lackey's were pawns meant to slow down the heroes to give him enough time to escape. MHA gives the villains idealogical wins. All Might is no longer able to fight, it just took all their Nemu's, their facilities, and their mastermind planner and strongest piece on the gameboard. They've shaken the public's faith in UA by attacking them twice, both times with a bunch of villains being captured. Stain's influence encouraged a bunch of people to go from delinquents to full on villain's, but he was still defeated and imprisoned. They've established themselves as a threat, but if they were in One Piece they'd basically be just getting their bounties right now, and not very high ones. They're still small scale, and don't have an answer on how to get bigger yet.
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Sep 10, 2017 22:46
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So what you're saying is the Heroes are the Navy and the VA are the Strawhats.
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Sep 10, 2017 22:51
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The thing is that Shigaraki's character arc is meant to be a mirror of Deku's. Deku is on his Hero's Journey, and Shigaraki is going from this angry, surly idiot who read Catcher in the Rye too much to a villain who is actually inheriting the mastermind legacy and actually inspire people. He's not Arlong or Crocodile, or the Akatsuki, or an all knowing mastermind with perfect illusion powers who has been setting up his coup for years and years - Shigaraki, and by the extension the rest of the villain community, even Stain and Chisaki, are disaffected, violent people who are trying to claw themselves out of obscurity. They don't have the weight of the establishment supporting them like the heroes do; all their victories are Pyrrhic ones because they aren't in control, and are in many ways as inexperienced as the main characters. This is still a shounen series, and actual death is still going to be rare, but the nature of winning and losing for both parties is going to be fundamentally different, and when you combine that with Horikoshi following a different formula than "arc + character focus + sad backstory + personal character to villain", how he handles tragedy and loss in the narrative is going to be different too.
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Sep 10, 2017 22:59
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Work Friend Keven posted:Wow yeah thats a good point, those things don't matter at all. If only there... was some way... to connect that information to Hunter X Hunter. show me on the doll where the broken back mangaka touched you
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Sep 10, 2017 23:00
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Hunter X Hunter is a great manga about the adventures of young goku and young vegeta doing adventures, playing Laser vollyball etc. Unfortunately only 2 chapters come out a year and they're both Kill Patrick explaining his 9 new powers.
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Sep 10, 2017 23:03
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Work Friend Keven posted:Hunter X Hunter is a great manga about the adventures of young goku and young vegeta doing adventures, playing Laser vollyball etc. Unfortunately only 2 chapters come out a year and they're both Kill Patrick explaining his 9 new powers. I watched the dodgeball fight yesterday and I think it might be one of the things I've rewatched most except Nomu VS All Might. I still love that they won because Gon passed out.
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Sep 10, 2017 23:12
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Remember how quick Blackbeard pivoted from being just a rival to Luffy to king of poo poo mountain It doesn't take much
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Sep 10, 2017 23:29
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Supposedly Rappa, big strong man who can go toe-to-toe with pro heroes and had one of the best showings of the yakuza goons, lost instantly to Overhaul several times. But Mirio, still a high school student, now without a quirk and while protecting a small child managed to hold out 5 minutes against the guy that can kill him with a touch. And he's looking bloody and broken but he ain't done yet. Like it wouldn't be too surprising to see any of the pros in a similar situation, but Mirio's doing it quirkless. Yeah, it's a step down from when he had his quirk but he's still coming out of this looking to be at the level of some pros. Honestly I'm not exactly sure how Mirio survived 5 minutes without his quirk. Like, all Overhaul has to do is shoot a bunch of spikes all around him; you can't exactly dodge that or continue moving around once you're surrounded by a forest of spikes. Or, heck, he could just form walls around him. I get they wanted to show how badass Mirio was for lasting so long quirkless, but 5 minutes is a downright absurdly long time. But when I talked about him dominating, I was referring to before he had his quirk removed (which only happened due to a trick).
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Sep 10, 2017 23:31
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Ytlaya posted:Honestly I'm not exactly sure how Mirio survived 5 minutes without his quirk. Like, all Overhaul has to do is shoot a bunch of spikes all around him; you can't exactly dodge that or continue moving around once you're surrounded by a forest of spikes. Or, heck, he could just form walls around him. I get they wanted to show how badass Mirio was for lasting so long quirkless, but 5 minutes is a downright absurdly long time. The first thing post losing his quirk he did was break Overhauls arm with one powerful punch. Chisaki is fighting one handed and it's shown his quirk takes a hell of a lot out of him to use and he was using a lot prior to Lemillion losing his quick. Overhaul also doesn't seem to be the most in shape guy compared to the Atlas that is Mirio.
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Sep 10, 2017 23:41
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TFRazorsaw posted:The thing is that Shigaraki's character arc is meant to be a mirror of Deku's. Deku is on his Hero's Journey, and Shigaraki is going from this angry, surly idiot who read Catcher in the Rye too much to a villain who is actually inheriting the mastermind legacy and actually inspire people. He's not Arlong or Crocodile, or the Akatsuki, or an all knowing mastermind with perfect illusion powers who has been setting up his coup for years and years - Shigaraki, and by the extension the rest of the villain community, even Stain and Chisaki, are disaffected, violent people who are trying to claw themselves out of obscurity. They don't have the weight of the establishment supporting them like the heroes do; all their victories are Pyrrhic ones because they aren't in control, and are in many ways as inexperienced as the main characters. Shigaraki is maybe my favourite villain in jump right now and I am very invested in him learning about the power of evil friendship and becoming a more effective leader to his gang of murderers but despite how he's a mirror to Deku and supposed to be growing alongside him, until very recently while Deku had been growing stronger and having more victories and everything Shiggy just kinda kept losing. Over and over again really. And I think it kinda undermined his role as Deku's evil mirror. He wasn't involved personally in any of the VA's minor victories and although his demeanour certainly improved it didn't really seem to translate to success. To me it felt like he could use some wins himself to kinda highlight his progress as well (this doesn't mean he needed to kill anyone or anything) because despite being in the "main antagonist" position it didn't really feel like it. That's changed with this arc and it seems to be building to Shiggy getting a win over the Yakuza and him becoming a better leader was shown off more clearly. But I still think it's coming a little late, not too late or anything, just that I think he really could have had some moments earlier to show that he was in fact becoming a more effective evil man. There's a very real chance i'll forget all about that though when he disintegrates Chisaki steals his drugs and gives a one liner thanking him for the internship or something. That'll be neat. SyntheticPolygon fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 23:43
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The issue there is partly due to Shigaraki's quirk. His whole deal is basically a Murder Touch, and him winning means taking a character out personally. So you have to balance that, him being a mastermind, and him learning HOW to be a mastermind despite all his rampant character flaws, which means he delegates more than he actually fights. Thus it's hard to give him wins it feels like he actually contributed to.
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Sep 10, 2017 23:48
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Oh yeah, the one thing that got kinda lost in the chapter that's really sad is Eri's reaction to being shot at. She's so used to what is basically physical abuse she doesn't scream or cry, she just closes her eyes and grits her teeth to take it.
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Sep 10, 2017 23:52
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I will say though that one thing I wish the series dwelled on more is that a majority of the populace has untapped super powers. Like, there was more in the earlier chapters, but you don't see random people with animal features or inhuman qualities in crowd shots as much anymore, and I don't know, maybe one of the random people they rescuing can't stop themselves from crying marshmallows when they're upset or something. Otherwise, it feels like there's way too many people that are quirkless than Izuku's backstory would lead you to believe.
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Sep 11, 2017 00:12
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I think it's less that they're all quirkless and more that a bunch of them have mildly useless quirks. Like Bakugou's parents have sweat related powers that happened to combine into explosions, but on their own I think it just makes his mom's skin shiny, and his dad's is equally mundane. I would imagine having combat style quirks is fairly rare, especially ones as powerful as you see from the kids at UA. I also don't blame hori for not wanting to draw different transformation type quirks into every crowd shot, that sounds even more exhausting than drawing people into crowd shots in the first place.
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Sep 11, 2017 00:57
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TFRazorsaw posted:I will say though that one thing I wish the series dwelled on more is that a majority of the populace has untapped super powers. Like, there was more in the earlier chapters, but you don't see random people with animal features or inhuman qualities in crowd shots as much anymore, and I don't know, maybe one of the random people they rescuing can't stop themselves from crying marshmallows when they're upset or something. Otherwise, it feels like there's way too many people that are quirkless than Izuku's backstory would lead you to believe. Just because someone isn't a frog person doesn't mean they don't have a quirk. Like, Deku's mom is just a cool lady with a tiny, tiny controllable gravity power in that she can move very small objects around if she really wants to. That's not going to be visible in background shots. You don't see most people showing off their quirks in background shots because that'd be dumb and pointless from a meta-reason and in-universe it's actively illegal.
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Sep 11, 2017 01:00
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I guess you're right. I just remember stuff like how in the earlier chapters, there'd be a random guy who Deku talks to who had horns and stuff.
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Sep 11, 2017 01:02
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Dragonatrix posted:Just because someone isn't a frog person doesn't mean they don't have a quirk. Like, Deku's mom is just a cool lady with a tiny, tiny controllable gravity power in that she can move very small objects around if she really wants to. That's not going to be visible in background shots. You don't see most people showing off their quirks in background shots because that'd be dumb and pointless from a meta-reason and in-universe it's actively illegal. man i wonder how strong deku's mom could actually be if she trained her quirk
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Sep 11, 2017 03:37
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To actually be allowed to use your quirk outside of a private setting you need some sort of license, like the provisional hero license. I do wonder if there are other, more limited licenses for relevant quirk use in other civilian industries, though. I also wonder about the state of the rest of the world outside Japan, though that's probably beyond the scope of the story.
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