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So how do they do advertising in europe which is full of a bunch of tiny to large countries all with different taxes? Are the individual tax-areas still large enough to make targeted ads for that specific area economical? But there's countries in europe with comparable populations to provinces in Canada and they have functional advertising and shopping. So BC and Alberta have different sale tax rates, your national chain just runs ads with slightly different text in each market? Or advertise the pre-tax price with a little (plus local taxes) disclaimer at the bottom but have the real total price on the sticker in-store. And for places that aren't huge chains, it wouldn't change their marketing at all since they only advertise for their single or few locations in a single tax region anyways. When looking for prices online, big chains ask you to select a store, so you get the correct stock and prices for that exact location anyways. So how do they do marketing and price advertising in europe? How do they function with their 51+ different tax rates in tiny to large markets? Do we have any european marketing goons here?
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Sep 11, 2017 20:18
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When you have to change the language in an ad for different euro countries it's no biggie to change a number I imagine. It's dumb as gently caress to not have the actual price of an item in store but the US government is broken in so many ways that having inaccurate price labels is so far down the list of things to fix it's not even worth bothering about.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:26
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Baronjutter posted:So how do they do advertising in europe which is full of a bunch of tiny to large countries all with different taxes? Are the individual tax-areas still large enough to make targeted ads for that specific area economical? But there's countries in europe with comparable populations to provinces in Canada and they have functional advertising and shopping. So BC and Alberta have different sale tax rates, your national chain just runs ads with slightly different text in each market? Or advertise the pre-tax price with a little (plus local taxes) disclaimer at the bottom but have the real total price on the sticker in-store. And for places that aren't huge chains, it wouldn't change their marketing at all since they only advertise for their single or few locations in a single tax region anyways. When looking for prices online, big chains ask you to select a store, so you get the correct stock and prices for that exact location anyways.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:26
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I don't get this "There are too many jurisdictions!" bullshit from Americans. Stores don't move. There's what, at worse 4? levels of authority you have to pay tax to. It is not a huge burden to keep tabs on the sales tax changes coming from 4 bodies, and stores should be paying attention to legislation which might affect them anyways. Just print the price onto the label when you print your labels on your label-maker instead of at the till, it's not this giant task you're making it out to be.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:39
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nothing to seehere posted:I don't get this "There are too many jurisdictions!" bullshit from Americans. Stores don't move. There's what, at worse 4? levels of authority you have to pay tax to. It is not a huge burden to keep tabs on the sales tax changes coming from 4 bodies, and stores should be paying attention to legislation which might affect them anyways. Just print the price onto the label when you print your labels on your label-maker instead of at the till, it's not this giant task you're making it out to be. And then your prices don't match advertised prices. Which is often a crime, and is misleading at best. What's so hard to understand about this?
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Sep 11, 2017 20:42
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call to action posted:Actually I spend quite a bit of time outside in Valverde, Barnum, Harvey Park, and Westwood, which are - surprise, surprise - suburbs of Denver and the most Latino and Asian neighborhoods in the city. I work with a non-profit that helps those neighborhoods get the tree cover they deserve by providing free trees and tree care service to poor neighborhoods. Nice try though, tiger. I guess it's a semantics issue then because I consider those neighborhoods part of the actual, core city. "Suburbs" to me are places like Arvada, Westminster, Highlands Ranch etc etc etc (i.e. places outside the actual City and County of Denver) which are all super white and expensive.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:43
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nothing to seehere posted:I don't get this "There are too many jurisdictions!" bullshit from Americans. Stores don't move. There's what, at worse 4? levels of authority you have to pay tax to. It is not a huge burden to keep tabs on the sales tax changes coming from 4 bodies, and stores should be paying attention to legislation which might affect them anyways. Just print the price onto the label when you print your labels on your label-maker instead of at the till, it's not this giant task you're making it out to be. 1) Advertising should never include prices 2) Advertising should include prices, but there's no need for those prices to match what the item is listed for at the business you purchase it form 3) Advertising should include prices, and they should match what the item is listed for, meaning advertising can only be done when you can somehow guarantee the physical location of the person buying the item after viewing the advertising (hint: this one is impossible)
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Sep 11, 2017 20:45
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fishmech posted:And then your prices don't match advertised prices. Which is often a crime, and is misleading at best. What's so hard to understand about this? You just put a asterisk on the price and have small print reading "before sales tax"? It's not hard, the only reason your companies don't do it is because it makes them look cheaper. If they were forced to by law it would happen in a flash.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:47
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If only nearly everybody carried around a small computer in their pocket to help do some simple math for the rare times the sales tax determines whether you can afford something or not.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:47
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nothing to seehere posted:You just put a asterisk on the price and have small print reading "before sales tax"? It's not hard, the only reason your companies don't do it is because it makes them look cheaper. If they were forced to by law it would happen in a flash.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:49
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twodot posted:Why accept advertising that doesn't include sales tax, but reject tags that don't include sales tax? Like I agree it's not hard to put an asterisk with small print saying "this is a lie", but I don't understand why a person who thinks truth in sales tags is really important wouldn't also think truth in advertising is equally important. Because while I'd rather both are true, because of your wierd overlapping systems truth in advertising can't be correct until microtargetting ads are a thing, but there is exactly nothing stopping your price tags at least being true? It's not like sales taxes are included in ads at the moment.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:52
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Can we just accept that virtually everyone in America is fine with the system of putting the pre-tax price on things, saying "plus tax" if anything at all to cover it in adverts, and just doing the math yourself if you care? Personally, I just mentally go "yeah everything costs ~7% more than sticker" and swipe my card and move on with my life, it's not a thing that even requires any extra effort unless you have some reason to care about the exact change price of things you buy. Like, does anyone actually think there's some moral wrong at play here and not just "My, that's not how I'm used to doing things, how odd"? It seems about as useful as an argument about what side of the road is better to drive on.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:57
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fishmech posted:And then your prices don't match advertised prices. Which is often a crime, and is misleading at best. What's so hard to understand about this? "but it's a crime!" i shriek as I slowly shrink and turn into a corncob you act like ads aren't already locally targeted its not like kroger cant figure out how to write the correct price in their weekly pamphlet and everything online wrt sales tax is a shitshow already and most merchants just flagrantly ignore local/state taxes
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Sep 11, 2017 20:57
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Wow. My local Safeway announced today that it's closing in October. Then we'll be down to just Smith's (a Kroger store) and Walmart.
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Sep 11, 2017 20:59
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nothing to seehere posted:You just put a asterisk on the price and have small print reading "before sales tax"? It's not hard, the only reason your companies don't do it is because it makes them look cheaper. If they were forced to by law it would happen in a flash. nothing to seehere posted:Because while I'd rather both are true, because of your wierd overlapping systems truth in advertising can't be correct until microtargetting ads are a thing, but there is exactly nothing stopping your price tags at least being true? It's not like sales taxes are included in ads at the moment. The price tags are already true, and the advertising and the receipt are also true. The sales tax is a separate charge and also noted on the receipt. What is the benefit meant to be of eliminating one aspect of truth in advertising and complicating comparison shopping? It seems like this is all just eroding consumer protections so that a few random tourists are minorly less inconvenienced when shopping in America/Canada. NewForumSoftware posted:"but it's a crime!" i shriek as I slowly shrink and turn into a corncob Normal local targeting already crosses tax jurisdictions quite a lot, especially for radio/tv.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:00
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nothing to seehere posted:Because while I'd rather both are true, because of your wierd overlapping systems truth in advertising can't be correct until microtargetting ads are a thing, but there is exactly nothing stopping your price tags at least being true? It's not like sales taxes are included in ads at the moment. 1) Advertising and price tags agree 2) Advertising and price tags disagree 3) Advertising isn't allowed to talk about price What makes 2 better than 1 or 3? I could understand a position of "never lie to consumers" so we need 3, or a position of "adults can figure out sales tax, and also I want people to be able to reliably predict the prices of things they purchase" so we need 1. I don't understand any coherent philosophy that could lead to advocating we need advertising to display different prices from price tags.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:09
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twodot posted:You'd rather both are true I get that, but given that preference why accept a system where advertising and price tags disagree on price? Your options are: You do also have the option of just printing both prices on the price tag, which is how shops in the EU with a mix of taxed and tax-exempt customers handle this.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:12
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nothing to seehere posted:I don't get this "There are too many jurisdictions!" bullshit from Americans. Stores don't move. There's what, at worse 4? levels of authority you have to pay tax to. It is not a huge burden to keep tabs on the sales tax changes coming from 4 bodies, and stores should be paying attention to legislation which might affect them anyways. Just print the price onto the label when you print your labels on your label-maker instead of at the till, it's not this giant task you're making it out to be. I have seen over 10 taxing jurisdictions at a premise. Special taxing districts are a thing. Taxes also change over time. Sales tax is also not uniform across all products. Some are taxed more or less or even exempt. Companies pay millions a year to companies like Vertex to avoid having to deal with it.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:15
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twodot posted:You'd rather both are true I get that, but given that preference why accept a system where advertising and price tags disagree on price? Your options are: Because most goods you buy aren't advertised? The subset of advertised goods being inconsistent is worth it for all goods actually have the right price on them and sales tax being less visible.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:16
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It's sort of a metric/imperial thing. Maybe one is better than the other but it would be way too much of a pain in the rear end for americans to change at this point and it's working fine so who cares what the rest of the world does.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:19
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Reveilled posted:You do also have the option of just printing both prices on the price tag, which is how shops in the EU with a mix of taxed and tax-exempt customers handle this. edit: nothing to seehere posted:Because most goods you buy aren't advertised? The subset of advertised goods being inconsistent is worth it for all goods actually have the right price on them and sales tax being less visible.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:20
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Star Man posted:Wow. My local Safeway announced today that it's closing in October. Then we'll be down to just Smith's (a Kroger store) and Walmart.  They haven't closed any yet but I can't imagine they're keeping all 4 busy, although the one I go to insanely loving busy almost all the time with like only ever 1 manned checkout open and 8 self-checkout machines of which 3/4ths are typically broken and a long line extending to the back of the store just to use a machine.I loving hate Safeway though, what a scummy and evil company.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:22
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Reveilled posted:You do also have the option of just printing both prices on the price tag, which is how shops in the EU with a mix of taxed and tax-exempt customers handle this. And new labels near yearly with sales tax changes and at least once a year for various tax holidays and a few CYOA tags in the event you spend over X amount of dollars etc...
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Sep 11, 2017 21:27
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I'd like to apologise for this thread going off the rails about the tax thing. I was more or less the first person to state a preference for the Euro-style "tax is included" custom and then it all went wrong. Had I known what it would lead to, I just would have made a dick joke or wished death on Eddie Lampert.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:44
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twodot posted:Of course, but what's the foundations that lead to mandating printing both prices while allowing advertising to not do that? If it's not clear, my position on this is I just don't care. More information is better, but consumers can figure out sales tax, so whether businesses choose to print price tags pre or post tax just doesn't matter to me. This is very different from labeling laws like calorie counts where consumers have basically no ability to figure it out. People who are acting like they care about this need to explain why it's very important that price tags have all the information, but advertising gets a pass.
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Sep 11, 2017 21:56
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Jethro posted:I don't particularly care either, but advertising has to get a pass because advertising is (sometimes) less granular than taxation location-wise. The individual store that puts the pricetag on has to know the "actual" price paid by consumers, because that's what they're charging. As has been stated several times, the ad might cover the area served by a dozen different taxation schemes. Individual stores don't produce much of the signage or displays you see. You'd have signs in the store that conflict with the price tags. Assuming the stores themselves even create their own price tags.
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Sep 11, 2017 22:03
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nothing to seehere posted:Because most goods you buy aren't advertised? The subset of advertised goods being inconsistent is worth it for all goods actually have the right price on them and sales tax being less visible. But all goods already have the right price on them? Also why shouldn't sales tax be visible if we're going to insist on having such a backwards tax anyway? Submarine Sandpaper posted:Individual stores don't produce much of the signage or displays you see. You'd have signs in the store that conflict with the price tags. Assuming the stores themselves even create their own price tags. Yeah for instance when I worked at a supermarket we received our signage from regional headquarters which covered partly in Pennslyvania and partly in New Jersey, and had 3 different sales tax regimes between them, including 2 different sets of what products had to include sales tax. The only thing the store manager got to set prices on without coordination with regional headquarters was the fresh local produce section, and those goods didn't have sales tax on them in the first place. fishmech fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Sep 11, 2017 |
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Sep 11, 2017 22:06
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Jethro posted:I don't particularly care either, but advertising has to get a pass because advertising is (sometimes) less granular than taxation location-wise. The individual store that puts the pricetag on has to know the "actual" price paid by consumers, because that's what they're charging. As has been stated several times, the ad might cover the area served by a dozen different taxation schemes.
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Sep 11, 2017 22:07
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Clearly the only solution to this intractable issue of price stickers and regressive taxation is the total destruction of capitalism. Maybe we could get correct clothing sizes and women's pants with usable pockets out of it too, but that might need to wait for the next 5 year plan.
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Sep 11, 2017 22:08
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I don't particularly care whether the tax is included or not but I'm totally baffled as to why everyone thinks it's such a huge problem that it isn't.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:08
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There's no problem too small in this world that DnD won't spend tens of thousands of words debating.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:10
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Xaris posted:We have four Safeways within a 2 mile radius, granted, 2 of those is because they just bought a small-grocery chain (adronicos) a few years ago but yeah, I'm indifferent toward Safeway and go there out of habit. The one where I live is a two-minute walk away down the alley.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:18
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Baronjutter posted:So how do they do advertising in europe which is full of a bunch of tiny to large countries all with different taxes? Are the individual tax-areas still large enough to make targeted ads for that specific area economical? But there's countries in europe with comparable populations to provinces in Canada and they have functional advertising and shopping. So BC and Alberta have different sale tax rates, your national chain just runs ads with slightly different text in each market? Or advertise the pre-tax price with a little (plus local taxes) disclaimer at the bottom but have the real total price on the sticker in-store. And for places that aren't huge chains, it wouldn't change their marketing at all since they only advertise for their single or few locations in a single tax region anyways. When looking for prices online, big chains ask you to select a store, so you get the correct stock and prices for that exact location anyways. The EU has one sales-tax regiment per nation buddy, most nations have different languages and those outside of the Eurozone even have different currencies. Like in the scale fo things it's such a small issue that I doubt it is even one anyone's mind. In contrast, the US has thousands of sales tax regiments and they change all the time. Additionally, EU law dictates that all prices advertised aimed at general consumers (and not say entities which can deduct sales tax like companies) are shown post-sales tax if not intended for export. Like there's not much room for interpretation here. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Sep 11, 2017 |
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Sep 11, 2017 23:31
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nothing to seehere posted:I don't get this "There are too many jurisdictions!" bullshit from Americans. Stores don't move. There's what, at worse 4? levels of authority you have to pay tax to. It is not a huge burden to keep tabs on the sales tax changes coming from 4 bodies, and stores should be paying attention to legislation which might affect them anyways. Just print the price onto the label when you print your labels on your label-maker instead of at the till, it's not this giant task you're making it out to be. Is there a live musical performance? Downtown Minneapolis has a special entertainment tax on goods and services during the periods when there is a live performance.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:33
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I programmed PIM (product information management) software for years, which is the software actually used for tracking stuff like price lists across an entire company and ensuring the right numbers show up on websites and flyers. They can handle different pricelists for different markets, but for the most part people break it down by region at most because it gets increasingly unwieldy the more ways there are to price each SKU. Going down to individual tax jurisdictions would make flyers deader than they currently are and if *prices may vary due to local tax rates doesn't fly, websites are going to need to have separate feeds for practically each store. It's not impossible by any means, but is it really that big of a deal to multiply by 1.0725 if you're already mentally keeping track of everything you buy to the cent? If there's one place that I think programmers are decidedly more libertarian than average, it's when it comes to the large patchwork of federal, state and local regulations. The average programmer doesn't write disruptive new apps. We write business software which ultimately makes everything else work and a large part of that is ensuring regulatory compliance like making sure that the MSDS sheets (MSD sheets?) are up to date, tracking which products have recalls out, displaying necessary boilerplate, customs data, bilingual data in Canada and so forth. When people are involved, there's still software making sure that everything which is supposed to go through the legal department actually does and there's an audit log of who signed off and when. This is not to say that all regulations are illegitimate. They're absolutely necessary. But for fucks sake could we stop trying to do absolutely everything on the grounds that it's big in the EU?
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Sep 12, 2017 00:21
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Likely the only possible way this would fly at all is to just list both the pre-tax and the post-tax price on the tags essentially like a miniature receipt and leave everything else alone. Even that is likely to be too big of headache to justify changing things for the very tiny non-problem of not reflecting sales tax on the sticker.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:53
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1337JiveTurkey posted:We write business software which ultimately makes everything else work and a large part of that is ensuring regulatory compliance like making sure that the MSDS sheets (MSD sheets?) One can say just "the MSDS" it is "materials safety data sheets".
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Sep 12, 2017 01:10
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https://www.reuters.com/article/vitaminworld-bankruptcy/vitamin-world-says-to-file-for-bankruptcy-protection-idUSL2N1LI1WL I don't think it was mentioned, but along with Toys' R Us and Perfumania. Vitamin World will be failing for bankruptcy as early as this month.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:57
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Holy poo poo the sales tax chat has gone on for too long. It is not difficult to mentally round up roughly what it would cost. If you order anything online, or make any major purchase like a car or whatever, the sales tax is clearly communicated to you prior to actually handing over your method of payment. 99% of the population in the US does not have a problem with it, and the effort to fix it at this point isn't worth it. Now, what does everyone think about tipping?
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Sep 12, 2017 01:59
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LogisticEarth posted:Holy poo poo the sales tax chat has gone on for too long. It is not difficult to mentally round up roughly what it would cost. If you order anything online, or make any major purchase like a car or whatever, the sales tax is clearly communicated to you prior to actually handing over your method of payment. 99% of the population in the US does not have a problem with it, and the effort to fix it at this point isn't worth it. not really a thing that happens in retail
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Sep 12, 2017 02:05
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