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awesmoe posted:I can't speak for axiel but if you want to know the specific ways hilary clinton thinks so she just discussed it on the pod save america podcast which is what started this discussion Can you post a couple examples? I'd rather not pick through all 47 minutes of that interview.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:24
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SulphagneSocialist posted:I think it speaks to the fact that she is more interested in the project of the Democratic Party and not necessarily the ideological stances or leftist policy goals lots of voters have. she's more interested in the project of a democratic party made in her image if the republican party post-nixon hadn't been overrun by used car salesmen and failed televangelists she'd likely have stuck around there
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Sep 13, 2017 21:25
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awesmoe posted:I can't speak for axiel but if you want to know the specific ways hilary clinton thinks so she just discussed it on the pod save america podcast which is what started this discussion Most of it was her being very upset that Bernie isn't a dem and that he called for a primary challenger for Obama in 2011.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:27
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WampaLord posted:Please explain how you think Sanders is being a lovely person. I'm genuinely curious. -Joins the Party for the sole purpose of running for POTUS -Shits all over Obama's legacy -Loses Primary and bitterly drags it out -Gives a half-hearted convention speech despite the party apparatus bending over backwards to make him feel important (letting his delegates write the platform, giving him a big speech, etc) -After Dems lose the Presidency in 2016, leaves the party -Fuels Keith Ellison's run for DNC chair against Obama's Labor Secretary and when Ellison doesn't win, again gives a sort of weak endorsement of Perez If you ignore that this is about politics and instead it's about a workplace or one of your friends would you think this was a person who's core goal actually trying to help? mcmagic posted:Most of it was her being very upset that Bernie isn't a dem and that he called for a primary challenger for Obama in 2011. CALLING FOR A PRIMARY CHALLENGE OF A SITTING, POPULAR PRESIDENT IS A BIG loving DEAL
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Sep 13, 2017 21:27
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The Bloop posted:It did, though, if only piling on to the 30 year smear. It's funny because probably from their perspective the press did 100% repudiate it - virtually no journalistic outfits that aren't clearly in the tank for the right wing actually endorsed Trump, and there was an endless litany of awful poo poo that he had been accused of or was known to have done in the news. The Hillary endorsements quite often focused more on how Trump was a shambling atrocity of a candidate rather than anything about Hillary, which of course we could now argue might have been counterproductive. They tried to give equal time to emails and Benghazi and other baseless bullshit that the GOP was screaming about to be 'fair' in some sense, and people are somehow too dense to get that one of these things is not like the other.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:29
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axeil posted:-Joins the Party for the sole purpose of running for POTUS. So? It was the completely 100% right political move. axeil posted:
It's really not. Keeping politicians honest to their promises is what we should all be doing, no matter what the party. That is if you care more about policy outcomes than party infrastructure. mcmagic fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 21:30
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The Muppets On PCP posted:she's more interested in the project of a democratic party made in her image
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Sep 13, 2017 21:31
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The Bloop posted:I spoke to a few acquaintances who were going to be voting for the first time, never having followed politics before, and all of them said that Hillary was somehow vaguely untrustworthy. None could cite a single reason. People hear that stuff for so long that they DO internalize it, that's the point. To a lot of people if he is calling her Crooked Hillary and the press isn't 100% repudiating it, it must be for a reason. it's like that canard about the reason behind the civil war people who don't follow politics think she's untrustworthy people who know a little think there's a massive conspiracy around every corner ranging from russia to sanders the media to men in general people who know a lot about politics think she's untrustworthy
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Sep 13, 2017 21:31
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axeil posted:-Joins the Party for the sole purpose of running for POTUS If he is trying to help the people of the US and views the DNC as an obstacle to that objective that must nontheless be contended with then yes actually- his actions do look like someone with the goal of trying to help. If Bernie was trying to help the DNC maintain its present status quo then no, his actions would be pretty counterproductive. But I don't think anyone has ever argued that Sanders favored political institutions over people.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:32
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axeil posted:-Joins the Party for the sole purpose of running for POTUS loving lmao. I thought you were dropping the "elite out of touch dumbass banker" gimmick posting. E: VVV You are not the thread police. Stop trying to ban this topic everywhere, the conversation clearly wants to happen.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:33
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Can you take the primary chat (once a loving gain) to the Dems are dumb thread? Seriously, this thread is barely 20 pages, and 5 of them are this poo poo all over again.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:33
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DACK FAYDEN posted:The Southern Strategy happened and just because she was a Goldwater Girl in '64 doesn't mean she didn't also do undercover work sniffing out racist schools within a decade of that. Come on, man. if the post-civil rights realignment hadn't occurred and the republican party was still primarily the party of racially moderate northeastern business interests, that'd be her natural home
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Sep 13, 2017 21:34
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axeil posted:-Joins the Party for the sole purpose of running for POTUS this is like if you took every centrist ever and put them into a huge blender and made a something awful poster out of the result
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Sep 13, 2017 21:34
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Prester Jane posted:If he is trying to help the people of the US and views the DNC as an obstacle to that objective that must nontheless be contended with then yes actually- his actions do look like someone with the goal of trying to help. Like it or not, the left is going to have to work through the Dems/DNC. Sabotaging it isn't helping anyone.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:34
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Perez entered the race AFTER Ellison had already become the favorite. Like it's literally the opposite of what you are saying happened when Obama put Perez up to counter Ellison's early momentum.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:34
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Party Plane Jones posted:Can you take the primary chat (once a loving gain) to the Dems are dumb thread? Seriously, this thread is barely 20 pages, and 5 of them are this poo poo all over again. weird that people want to talk about american politics in the uspol thread
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Sep 13, 2017 21:35
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edit: nevermind, i'll drop this, this is not the place for primarychart
axeil fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 21:36
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Party Plane Jones posted:Can you take the primary chat (once a loving gain) to the Dems are dumb thread? Seriously, this thread is barely 20 pages, and 5 of them are this poo poo all over again. just probate axeil, it's all his fault it started
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Sep 13, 2017 21:36
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axeil posted:Like it or not, the left is going to have to work through the Dems/DNC. Sabotaging it isn't helping anyone. trying to make the DNC actually be good = sabotaging. got it
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Sep 13, 2017 21:36
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axeil posted:
-Why is that a problem, if he caucuses with the Dems as a Senator, has a great voting record, and is pushing ideas that seem to be helping the Democrats? -He didn't do this any more than Clinton herself did. Also being critical of a president's policies isn't the same as making GBS threads all over their legacy. Sanders was pretty clear in saying that the ACA was a good step forward from what had existed beforehand. -Clinton did this too, though, in 2008. She even alluded to RFK's assassination and implied that it could happen to Obama as well, as a reason for staying in. This was after running a pretty racist dogwhistle-y primary campaign. -This seems pretty subjective to me; his speech didn't seem any more half-hearted than Clinton's at the '08 convention. -He didn't make any promises or hint that he was staying officially registered as a Dem, and he still caucuses/votes with the Dems. Again, I'm not seeing the problem. What matters should be the ends he supports, not whether or not he's an 100% "according to Hoyle" registered Democrat. -What's wrong with him supporting Ellison? Ellison was winning handily until Perez entered late in the race and Obama put his thumb on the scale. Also, Perez is doing really, really badly at the job right now.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:36
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axeil posted:That thread is cancer and not conductive to actual discussion and you know it.  )
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Sep 13, 2017 21:37
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DACK FAYDEN posted:The Southern Strategy happened and just because she was a Goldwater Girl in '64 doesn't mean she didn't also do undercover work sniffing out racist schools within a decade of that. Come on, man. And yet this did not stop her from race-baiting/using dog whistles during the 2008 primary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yr7odFUARg
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Sep 13, 2017 21:37
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Party Plane Jones posted:Can you take the primary chat (once a loving gain) to the Dems are dumb thread? Seriously, this thread is barely 20 pages, and 5 of them are this poo poo all over again. To be fair, if Ted Kennedy hadn't primaried Carter, we might not be having this conversation right now.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:38
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A bunch of feral cats sitting in a dumpster - "can we PLEASE get all the fleas out of here!?"
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Sep 13, 2017 21:38
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axeil posted:Like it or not, the left is going to have to work through the Dems/DNC. Sabotaging it isn't helping anyone. The Democratic base pulling the Democratic party left is sabotage, now? Edit: The party is trying to pull the base right? Good and mature. The base is trying to pull the party left? Sabotage !!! Accretionist fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 21:38
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The Groper posted:To be fair, if Ted Kennedy hadn't primaried Carter, we might not be having this conversation right now. Or if Reagan hadn't primaried Ford. Can we agree to blame Reagan?
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Sep 13, 2017 21:38
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Radish posted:Perez entered the race AFTER Ellison had already become the favorite. Like it's literally the opposite of what you are saying happened when Obama put Perez up to counter Ellison's early momentum. and don't forget the anti-muslim whisper campaign launched against ellison where the party establishment encouraged by clowns like haim saban and the adl pushed stories from frank gaffney and breitbart of all places
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Sep 13, 2017 21:39
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Xae posted:Or if Reagan hadn't primaried Ford. no because Reagan is goldwater's fault
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Sep 13, 2017 21:39
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Xae posted:Or if hadn't primaried Ford. You shouldn't openly name The Dark One.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:39
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Party Plane Jones posted:Can you take the primary chat (once a loving gain) to the Dems are dumb thread? Seriously, this thread is barely 20 pages, and 5 of them are this poo poo all over again. I'm not asking this confrontationally, and would really be interested in hearing an answer: what would you like to be discussed in this thread? It seems to me that discussing the future of the Democratic Party fits pretty neatly in this thread's wheelhouse, but you don't seem to agree.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:40
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So Ghouls are finally back in full force to complain about word choices and technicalities. I guess seeing Hillary regain the strength to blame everyone else for losing her election was the motivation they needed.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:40
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theblackw0lf posted:The issue is more that if a person is generally satisfied with their health insurance, which polls show most are, then there is a good chance they will be reluctant to give up their plan for something that for them there is uncertainty about, even if all the evidence points to it being a better option. (This is why Obama emphasized "if you have a plan you can keep it" when selling ACA). A lot of people aren't generally satisfied by their health insurance, though. That's why there's such a push for healthcare reform in the first place - not only are people not satisfied with their own health insurance, but they're not happy about the entire insurance system as it currently exists.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:41
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Accretionist posted:The Democratic base pulling the Democratic party left is sabotage, now? Axeil believes bankers are the base. He is also a banker.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:42
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Majorian posted:I'm not asking this confrontationally, and would really be interested in hearing an answer: what would you like to be discussed in this thread? It seems to me that discussing the future of the Democratic Party fits pretty neatly in this thread's wheelhouse, but you don't seem to agree. My guess would be RSS posting about domestic current events. That's what I expected when I clicked, anyways.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:42
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Majorian posted:I'm not asking this confrontationally, and would really be interested in hearing an answer: what would you like to be discussed in this thread? It seems to me that discussing the future of the Democratic Party fits pretty neatly in this thread's wheelhouse, but you don't seem to agree. I partially started this so I apologize. I think we should probably focus on all the non-Trump stuff going on in the news. Like SCOTUS not allowing the new Texas map to take effect. https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...6152_story.html Washington Post posted:Over liberals’ objections, Supreme Court says Texas need not draw new districts now Mr Hootington posted:Axeil believes bankers are the base. He is also a banker. Neither of these are true and I would like to ask you politely to not put words in my mouth.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:43
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Raskolnikov38 posted:no because Reagan is goldwater's fault Personally, I think where it all went wrong - for this past century at least - is when Wallace lost the VP nomination in '44. Think how it could have been if America ended WWII with an actual socialist as president instead of Harry Truman. Think about this: quote:In 1948, he undertook a third party bid for president, calling for universal government health insurance, an end to the incipient Cold War, and the abolition of segregation. Man ahead of his time.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:43
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NEED MORE MILK posted:this is like if you took every centrist ever and put them into a huge blender and made a something awful poster out of the result Sounds right, but just to be sure let's put every centrist ever into a huge blender and compare. For science.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:44
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Accretionist posted:The Democratic base pulling the Democratic party left is sabotage, now? according to the current party establishment, yeah it is every ossified organization reacts the same way when it's no longer totally in control of itself
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Sep 13, 2017 21:45
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Party Plane Jones posted:Can you take the primary chat (once a loving gain) to the Dems are dumb thread? Seriously, this thread is barely 20 pages, and 5 of them are this poo poo all over again. It's been 10 months since the election. How long are liberals going to whine like this because they don't want to be reminded of just how massively centrists have failed the people?
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Sep 13, 2017 21:46
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axeil posted:Like it or not, the left is going to have to work through the Dems/DNC. Sabotaging it isn't helping anyone. It's good that you've relized that sabotaging the democrats by still batting for the person who blew the most important presidential election in living memory is bad, and it's nice that you'll stop doing that. axeil posted:CALLING FOR A PRIMARY CHALLENGE OF A SITTING, POPULAR PRESIDENT IS A BIG loving DEAL lol. If the president is that popular the challenge in question will go literally nowhere and nothing will be affected. So logically the only thing that could be a big deal to you here is to not think that Obama is some mythical demigod that can do no wrong and must never be opposed.
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Sep 13, 2017 21:47
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