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Jaxyon posted:Of course it is. What's your point? I don't know, I must not have gotten your point here: Jaxyon posted:I'm fine with that and he's done good work getting possible Dem nominees for 2020 on board with it. In your mind, should I give a poo poo about what those strategists think, or should I not? Because I'm closer to the latter than the former.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:27
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Jaxyon posted:Leftists are running, I'm more making fun of how harsh posters are on centrists when there's literal white supremacists in the white house. the instant you let up on them theyll come crawling back like the cockroaches they are. i can hate centrists and facists at the same time thank you
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Sep 13, 2017 22:27
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Majorian posted:I'm not asking this confrontationally, and would really be interested in hearing an answer: what would you like to be discussed in this thread? It seems to me that discussing the future of the Democratic Party fits pretty neatly in this thread's wheelhouse, but you don't seem to agree. Accretionist posted:Why did USPol get gassed/banned anyways? Xae posted:People couldn't shut the gently caress up about primary chat. This is basically why primary chat shouldn't be in here, it's a cancer that derails from actual current events for pages on end (example: the 9 people mass murdered or the WA school shooting or Virgin Islands being a hurricane hellscape) and its gotten at least two of the iterations of USPOL killed in late 2016. The Trump thread became a pseudo-USPOL as a result because there is/was basically nothing in the US government that the Trump administration doesn't molest in some shape or form. (and because mods outright banned creation of another USPOL thread for a good 3/4 months)
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Sep 13, 2017 22:28
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Jaxyon posted:Leftists are running, I'm more making fun of how harsh posters are on centrists when there's literal white supremacists in the white house. It's because said centrists shat the bed so bad that there now are literal white supremacists in the White House, plus they show no signs of learning from their absolute bedshitting unless they're dragged to good positions kicking and screaming, hth.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:28
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QuoProQuid posted:hillary clinton should do whatever makes her happy and has a right to do a retrospective on the election, just as every other central figure has had that right in elections past Who's saying she doesn't have the right, though? The question is, does it help heal the wounds from the 2016 primary? Does it unify and strengthen the Democratic Party? She has said that she wants to be part of the solution, and I'm not seeing how this book is constructive in this sense.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:28
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RuanGacho posted:I'm half tempted to get the kindle or audiobook of this thing just so I can be my own primary source but I feel like that will just invite goons cheering on my suffering for their entertainment. Also I'm not sure I want to hear this thing narrated by the author for what, 10+ hours? if there's any interest, I'll make a thread explicitly to discuss the book and the points that Clinton makes in it
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Sep 13, 2017 22:28
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Jaxyon posted:His loss *was* progress and a pretty big win for him, I don't disagree. I'm saying that people still vote for centrists pretty regularly and they tend to win elections for the party so from the political standpoint, they haven't failed. centrists tend to win elections in the relatively narrowly circumscribed range of places that the dems consider to be democratic territory they tend to lose in the places that aren't, and while the general assumption is that a leftist would just lose harder, that seems historically ignorant to me. many red states have historically been hotbeds for the other kind of red (  ) and a labor-focused leftist could make strides in these places. just look at randy bryce
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Sep 13, 2017 22:29
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Real talk i have gotten in more fights with centrists than republicans because the GOP understands i ideologically oppose them but centrists think I'm being an unreasonable extremist because I say things like there's no value to watching fox news to hear their prespective.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:29
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the moral of today's story is that if you don't start no primarychat, won't be no primarychat a lesson that sadly, neither axeil nor hillary clinton learned
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Sep 13, 2017 22:29
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Party Plane Jones posted:This is basically why primary chat shouldn't be in here, it's a cancer that derails from actual current events for pages on end (example: the 9 people mass murdered or the WA school shooting or Virgin Islands being a hurricane hellscape) and its gotten at least two of the iterations of USPOL killed in late 2016. The Trump thread became a pseudo-USPOL as a result because there is/was basically nothing in the US government that the Trump administration doesn't molest in some shape or form. (and because mods outright banned creation of another USPOL thread for a good 3/4 months) Do people really want to talk about the WA school shooting or the status of the Virgin Islands, though? I mean, I get that they're important topics, but they strike me as...not terribly germane for debate.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:29
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Jazerus posted:(for comparison, hillary voters in 2008 defected to mccain 20+% and 10% is pretty low historically) 25% and the duke study where that number's pulled from has a footnote that says it's likely a bit higher since people tend to underreport that they voted for the loser
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Sep 13, 2017 22:30
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Condiv posted:single payer is a massive step forward and i'm glad for it I'm not supporting centrists here. Scent of Worf posted:You don't have to give Bernie credit for FF15, you do have to give it to the leftists that made it happen tho I agree that leftists get credit for that. But what other policies is Bernie pushing at the national level? I think centrists are moving left on healthcare and not much else. Majorian posted:I don't know, I must not have gotten your point here: I don't care what you give a poo poo. I'm talking about actual politics. Democratic leadership is mostly corporatist centrists. That's reality. That still works for them in a ton of elections.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:30
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Party Plane Jones posted:This is basically why primary chat shouldn't be in here, it's a cancer that derails from actual current events for pages on end (example: the 9 people mass murdered or the WA school shooting or Virgin Islands being a hurricane hellscape) and its gotten at least two of the iterations of USPOL killed in late 2016. The Trump thread became a pseudo-USPOL as a result because there is/was basically nothing in the US government that the Trump administration doesn't molest in some shape or form. (and because mods outright banned creation of another USPOL thread for a good 3/4 months) we're having a fun discussion about the future of the democratic party that's pretty current
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Sep 13, 2017 22:31
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If Hillary would have just died or became a hermit after losing this wouldn't be a problem. But sometimes she says something and as a leftist I just cannot let that go without my fury.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:31
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QuoProQuid posted:hillary clinton should do whatever makes her happy and has a right to do a retrospective on the election, just as every other central figure has had that right in elections past she does doesn't mean what she's done or is doing is a particularly good idea. slagging obama, slagging voters, and slagging bernie for all failing her reveals how petty she is and is probably not a good idea for her legacy imho
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Sep 13, 2017 22:32
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Majorian posted:Who's saying she doesn't have the right, though? The question is, does it help heal the wounds from the 2016 primary? Does it unify and strengthen the Democratic Party? She has said that she wants to be part of the solution, and I'm not seeing how this book is constructive in this sense. Hillary Clinton's decision to write a book is not going to undermine Democratic Party unity. I'm not even convinced that a party needs to be unified to do well electorally. It sure didn't hinder the Republicans in 2010 and 2014. Retrospectives are helpful because they help groups better understand what worked and what did not. I don't think "What Happened" is going to bring about metanoia in the party, but it provides a useful accounting of how poo poo went bad, even in those segments if there are notable omissions from the book I don't even like Clinton, but the whole notion that she should shut up is some grade-A bullshit that I am half convinced is driven by the national political press not wanting to accept responsibility for Trump's rise.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:33
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Push El Burrito posted:If Hillary would have just died or became a hermit after losing this wouldn't be a problem. But sometimes she says something and as a leftist I just cannot let that go without my fury. it does provide a certain degree of comparison, doesn't it on the same day Bernie's putting out a Medicare for All proposal, Hillary is launching It's Not My Fault, It's Voters' For Failing To Love Me And Bernie's For Not Campaigning For Me Hard Enough pragmatically, which one of those people do you think represents a brighter future for the democratic party
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Sep 13, 2017 22:33
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Push El Burrito posted:If Hillary would have just died or became a hermit after losing this wouldn't be a problem. But sometimes she says something and as a leftist I just cannot let that go without my fury. is this your honest perception of leftists? i'm baffled it's not about her still being around. she could be in the news every day for all i care, if it was about party unity and forging a better path forward and all that jazz she's actively fighting that and encouraging false narratives about the left so that the party doesn't change, however, and that's what's distasteful
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Sep 13, 2017 22:35
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Jaxyon posted:I'm not supporting centrists here. one thing at a time jaxyon. getting single payer from "will never happen" to "healthcare should be a right" is a big shift, and i'm not surprised he's focusing on that
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Sep 13, 2017 22:35
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Yet we have "I can't shut up about Hillary" chat at about 10x the amount of wordcount as "medicare for all is fantastic and it's catching on" chat.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:36
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Let's forget about primary chat. Who needs to be mad at Hillary for noting that Sanders had released zero detail on how to pay for his single payer proposal. That's the past, and not at all relevant to today. Let's instead talk about today, where Sanders released legislative text of a single payer health plan that has zero detail on how to pay for it.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:36
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Or could it be that the same dozen or so posters from the Dem waste thread want to perpetually relitigate the 2016 Primaries? Take a hint from Bernie himself and focus on the future instead of getting into a paroxysm of rage whenever Abuela does literally anything?
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Sep 13, 2017 22:36
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Condiv posted:one thing at a time jaxyon. getting single payer from "will never happen" to "healthcare should be a right" is a big shift, and i'm not surprised he's focusing on that Wait so you're going incrementalist now? 
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Sep 13, 2017 22:36
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Jaxyon posted:I don't care what you give a poo poo. I'm talking about actual politics. Democratic leadership is mostly corporatist centrists. That's reality. That still works for them in a ton of elections. Oh, it is, I fully acknowledge this, and I understand that we have to deal with the centrists, and put up a united front every now and the. We should celebrate when even a used car salesman like Cory Booker supports Sanders' bill. The way we're going to win is by showing centrists that it's politically advantageous for them to champion left-populist policies that voters love. Those that go along with it are welcome to come along for the ride. Those that don't, need to be jettisoned into space. Especially those who are center-right legislators from blue states. Dianne Feinstein, for example, doesn't keep winning in California because it's a center-right state, or because she represents our ideals particularly well. She keeps winning because she's connected as hell, gets a lot of corporate donations, and utilizes these advantages to lock up the primary without breaking a sweat. She's a great power-broker, but that doesn't mean that she's a great Senator, especially for California.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:37
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shrike82 posted:Or could it be that the same dozen or so posters from the Dem waste thread want to perpetually relitigate the 2016 Primaries? They must be right for their leftist street cred.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:37
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Jaxyon posted:Wait so you're going incrementalist now? everything is increments, as i argued back when that argument was fresh. tiny small changes over 8 years isn't enough though. single payer is a huge change. we need more, but that's a good change for 10 months
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Sep 13, 2017 22:38
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Man this is really gonna hurt her in the primaries.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:39
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Jazerus posted:is this your honest perception of leftists? i'm baffled But all the evidence points to the fact no one in the party is listening to her anymore. Politico had a recent article about how annoyed even her former staffers are with this book tour. Even if her donor base is still getting attention, there's no evidence she is guiding the party or that the DNC et al is taking her advice.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:39
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Mustached Demon posted:They must be right for their leftist street cred. you probably shouldn't high-five the trump voter/white supremacist. his slime might get all over you
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Sep 13, 2017 22:39
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Hellblazer187 posted:Let's forget about primary chat. Who needs to be mad at Hillary for noting that Sanders had released zero detail on how to pay for his single payer proposal. That's the past, and not at all relevant to today. the us government isn't broke and effectively can't be, that is just a bipartisan pretension to maintain the neoliberal/conservative status quo. it could print the money for single payer, likely without even seeing much inflation - the fed has been doing quantitative easing to fight deflation for a decade now
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Sep 13, 2017 22:39
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Jaxyon posted:Yet we have "I can't shut up about Hillary" chat at about 10x the amount of wordcount as "medicare for all is fantastic and it's catching on" chat. hilariously, when I brought up medicare for all is fantastic and it's catching on yesterday, I was told to shut up and take it to the dem thread weird, innit
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Sep 13, 2017 22:40
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Condiv posted:everything is increments, as i argued back when that argument was fresh. tiny small changes over 8 years isn't enough though. single payer is a huge change. we need more, but that's a good change for 10 months What I'm saying is that I think some democrats have adopted one of Bernie's planks. It's a really good one and honestly if it becomes law and it's the only thing he ever accomplishes he should be regarded as hero, but I don't think the Dems are on the whole adopting his politics.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:40
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Mustached Demon posted:They must be right for their leftist street cred. It's bizarre how angry they get about perceived slights to Sanders when Sanders himself has repeatedly said he doesn't give a poo poo and wants to focus on the future.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:40
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Push El Burrito posted:Man this is really gonna hurt her in the primaries. if only she had visited the critical waukesha county
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Sep 13, 2017 22:40
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Jaxyon posted:What I'm saying is that I think some democrats have adopted one of Bernie's planks. not yet no. that's why we have to keep pushing
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Sep 13, 2017 22:41
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Push El Burrito posted:Man this is really gonna hurt her in the primaries. It's not really so much about Hillary anymore, but rather the shitloads of other awful centrists who are still in the party and are still pushing back against leftists.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:41
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Ze Pollack posted:hilariously, when I brought up medicare for all is fantastic and it's catching on yesterday, I was told to shut up and take it to the dem thread Well that's dumb, especially if it was in favor of "I'm mad at hillary" chat. Healthcare is totally on topic here.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:41
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Trabisnikof posted:But all the evidence points to the fact no one in the party is listening to her anymore. Politico had a recent article about how annoyed even her former staffers are with this book tour. Even if her donor base is still getting attention, there's no evidence she is guiding the party or that the DNC et al is taking her advice. Except for Harris being flown out to the Hamptons to be vetted by Hillary's personal donors. Seems like some people are still listening to her.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:41
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Scent of Worf posted:It's not really so much about Hillary anymore, but rather the shitloads of other awful centrists who are still in the party and are still pushing back against leftists. Who exactly are you thinking about? Do you mean Perez or Pelosi or Manchin or what?
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Sep 13, 2017 22:42
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Scent of Worf posted:It's not really so much about Hillary anymore, but rather the shitloads of other awful centrists who are still in the party and are still pushing back against leftists. The centrists should really just drop out. It'll help with party unity.
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Sep 13, 2017 22:42
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